ifyouhavetoask said: You're day trading your retirement fund?
I don't see how that qualifies as day trading?! Short term trading w/o any tax consequences is a great benefit of IRA's.. If you don't feel comfortable doing it by all means sit aside, but there's no reason to knock anyone else for it. Also, please post constructive criticism to people's comments. Posting pure sarcastic bs is not appreciated by anyone.
Dealguy123 said: ifyouhavetoask said: You're day trading your retirement fund?
I don't see how that qualifies as day trading?! Short term trading w/o any tax consequences is a great benefit of IRA's.. If you don't feel comfortable doing it by all means sit aside, but there's no reason to knock anyone else for it. Also, please post constructive criticism to people's comments. Posting pure sarcastic bs is not appreciated by anyone.
It wasn't sarcastic. It was shock.
Yes, that's day trading. Trying to time the market is day trading.
FW attracts so many addictive personalities. Interesting.
WTF are you talking about? So if I say, hmmm, there have been 5 years of run up (a time period) and stocks are too pricey right now (say early 2000)...I'm going to sit out for a while (a time)...that makes one who is "day trading".
jayK said: ifyouhavetoask said: Whatever you do, don't take your eye off those Dow gains.
Don't look at the dollar. Don't look at the credit markets. Nothing to see there.
Just watch your 401k balance. As long as that keeps going up, there's nothing to worry about. Anyone who says otherwise, is a communist.OK, so what's your strategy then? I'm afraid you won't get much of a return by investing in sarcastic comments...
My strategy is to invest for the long term, by using common sense.
The Dow is meaningless. It's a distraction, used to keep you happy while they devalue the dollar into oblivion.
Look at the credit markets. Look at the dollar.
They'll tell you where to put your money...and where NOT to put your money.
An IRA is an excellent place to make short term trades as you avoid any short term capital gains tax and make tax accounting much easier. Every investment dollar I have will someday be retirement money irrespective of what type of account it is in.
ifyouhavetoask said: Yes, that's day trading. Trying to time the market is day trading.Wrong. Day trading is timing the market, but timing the market is not necessarily day trading.
ScootyPuffSr said: Trying to time the market is day trading.
WTF are you talking about? So if I say, hmmm, there have been 5 years of run up (a time period) and stocks are too pricey right now (say early 2000)...I'm going to sit out for a while (a time)...that makes one who is "day trading".
You have funny definitions to fit your agenda.
The stock market hasn't "run up" for 5 years. The dollar has collapsed for 5 years.
It has everything to do with buying power, and nothing to do with price.
Once you get a grasp of that concept, you'll stop being amused by the Dow, S&P and Nasdaq.
ifyouhavetoask said: My strategy is to invest for the long term, by using common sense.
The Dow is meaningless. It's a distraction, used to keep you happy while they devalue the dollar into oblivion.
Look at the credit markets. Look at the dollar.
They'll tell you where to put your money...and where NOT to put your money.Care to share some of your "common sense" on where you think we should put our money?
Your "strategy" is almost as insightful as "buy low, sell high".
ifyouhavetoask said: You're day trading your retirement fund?Ifyouhavetoask, not to argue over semantics, but it's not really day trading. I am buying and selling more about once every 2/3 weeks (whatever, you can call it day trading if you want ). The reason I am doing this now is because:
1)I have ZERO $ commissions 2)I pay ZERO $ in ANY capital gains I ever make. 3)I have that kind of time this summer at my job before I start law school. 4)The accounting for frequent trades in a Roth is much less of a headach. 5)I made 9.5% return on my principal in the month of June alone. How much did you make?
Next, keep in mind I am 22 years old, and just opened my Roth 4 months ago (so I have a starting principal of 4k). If I had a substantial Roth, I would likely not actively trade most my stocks like this. Furthermore, I am investing in indicies (actually ETF's of indicies so I can get the $0 commissions). The rules of my Roth game consist of the following:
1) Buy only ETF's based on broad indicies (foreign and domestic) or very well diversified mutual funds 2) Sell when I make a short term profit that looks abnormal to me (completely subjective, usually around 3%+) 3) Buy after a short term loss that looks abnormal to me (again, subjective, such as if it falls 3%+ in a day/week) 4) If I buy, and it drops, I will be patient until it rebounds and I profit. These are well diversified indicies/mutual fund ETF's and in the long run, I stand essentially no risk of not making a solid return.
I'm just trying to take advantage of the peaks and troughs during the eventual upward ride
ifyouhavetoask said: ScootyPuffSr said: Trying to time the market is day trading.
WTF are you talking about? So if I say, hmmm, there have been 5 years of run up (a time period) and stocks are too pricey right now (say early 2000)...I'm going to sit out for a while (a time)...that makes one who is "day trading".
You have funny definitions to fit your agenda.
The stock market hasn't "run up" for 5 years. The dollar has collapsed for 5 years.
It has everything to do with buying power, and nothing to do with price.
Once you get a grasp of that concept, you'll stop being amused by the Dow, S&P and Nasdaq.
And none of what you just said anything to do with the fact you have no idea what you are talking about in terms of what is day trading.
jayK said: ifyouhavetoask said: My strategy is to invest for the long term, by using common sense.
The Dow is meaningless. It's a distraction, used to keep you happy while they devalue the dollar into oblivion.
Look at the credit markets. Look at the dollar.
They'll tell you where to put your money...and where NOT to put your money.Care to share some of your "common sense" on where you think we should put our money?
Your "strategy" is almost as insightful as "buy low, sell high".
Put your money in Euros right now. Wait about 4-6 months... let the credit markets get blown out. Wait for the blood in the streets and a panic in the dollar. Then, start looking for opportunity.
Last month, I told you guys over in the real estate bubble discussion: Bear Stearns is just the canary in the coal mine. There's $300 billion+ in junk that's going to be written off over the next 6 months. You want to see ugly? Turn on Bloomberg in 60 days.
ScootyPuffSr said: ifyouhavetoask said: ScootyPuffSr said: Trying to time the market is day trading.
WTF are you talking about? So if I say, hmmm, there have been 5 years of run up (a time period) and stocks are too pricey right now (say early 2000)...I'm going to sit out for a while (a time)...that makes one who is "day trading".
You have funny definitions to fit your agenda.
The stock market hasn't "run up" for 5 years. The dollar has collapsed for 5 years.
It has everything to do with buying power, and nothing to do with price.
Once you get a grasp of that concept, you'll stop being amused by the Dow, S&P and Nasdaq.
And none of what you just said anything to do with the fact you have no idea what you are talking about in terms of what is day trading.
ScootyPuffSr said: And none of what you just said anything to do with the fact you have no idea what you are talking about in terms of what is day trading.
Maybe you should grasp that concept first.
I have grasped the concept. Using a retirement fund to try to time the market is only slightly smarter than playing online poker.
No one here, including me, can time the market on a consistent basis. If you think you can, please tell us where the Dow will close tomorrow, next Tuesday, and next Friday.
ifyouhavetoask said: ScootyPuffSr said: And none of what you just said anything to do with the fact you have no idea what you are talking about in terms of what is day trading.
Maybe you should grasp that concept first.
I have grasped the concept. Using a retirement fund to try to time the market is only slightly smarter than playing online poker.
No one here, including me, can time the market on a consistent basis. If you think you can, please tell us where the Dow will close tomorrow, next Tuesday, and next Friday.
ifyouhavetoask said: ScootyPuffSr said: And none of what you just said anything to do with the fact you have no idea what you are talking about in terms of what is day trading.
Maybe you should grasp that concept first.
I have grasped the concept. Using a retirement fund to try to time the market is only slightly smarter than playing online poker.
No one here, including me, can time the market on a consistent basis. If you think you can, please tell us where the Dow will close tomorrow, next Tuesday, and next Friday.
I never said I could time the market.
I said you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes the meaning and definitions of day trading and upper middle class.
ifyouhavetoask said: "Upper middle class" isn't working for someone else and putting money into a 401k. Those people are worker bees.Sad that you have such a narrow outlook. Most people refer to the upper-middle class as white-collar professionals who have higher than average incomes and more autonomy at work.
Who you receive your paycheck from and whether or not you use tax-advantaged accounts has nothing to do with it.
ifyouhavetoask said: No one here, including me, can time the market on a consistent basis. If you think you can, please tell us where the Dow will close tomorrow, next Tuesday, and next Friday.Yet you seem to already know what will happen to the dollar and the credit market in the next several months.
ifyouhavetoask said: longwood8 said: From earlier in this thread:
ifyouhavetoask said: If you draw a paycheck, you're not "upper-middle class".
Someone buy this woman a dictionary.
Really?
"Upper middle class" isn't working for someone else and putting money into a 401k. Those people are worker bees.
Regardless of what you might think it means, upper middle class is usually defined as earning > $100k, and includes professionals like lawyers, doctors, executives, professors, etc.
MikeR397 said: I don't see how that qualifies as day trading?! Short term trading w/o any tax consequences is a great benefit of IRA's.. If you don't feel comfortable doing it by all means sit aside, but there's no reason to knock anyone else for it. Also, please post constructive criticism to people's comments. Posting pure sarcastic bs is not appreciated by anyone.Ifyouhavetoask, not to argue over semantics, but it's not really day trading. I am buying and selling more about once every 2/3 weeks (whatever, you can call it day trading if you want ). The reason I am doing this now is because:
1)I have ZERO $ commissions 2)I pay ZERO $ in ANY capital gains I ever make. 3)I have that kind of time this summer at my job before I start law school. 4)I made 9.5% absolute return on my principal in the month of June alone. How much did you make?
Next, keep in mind I am 22 years old, and just opened my Roth 4 months ago (so I have a starting principal of 4k). If I had a substantial Roth, I would likely not actively trade most my stocks like this. Furthermore, I am investing in indicies (actually ETF's of indicies so I can get the $0 commissions). The rules of my Roth game consist of the following:
1) Buy only ETF's based on broad indicies (foreign and domestic) or very well diversified mutual funds 2) Sell when I make a short term profit that looks abnormal to me (completely subjective, usually around 3%+) 3) Buy after a short term loss that looks abnormal to me (again, subjective, such as if it falls 3%+ in a day/week) 4) If I buy, and it drops, I will be patient until it rebounds and I profit. These are well diversified indicies/mutual fund ETF's and in the long run, I stand essentially no risk of not making a solid return.
I'm just trying to take advantage of the peaks and troughs during the eventual upward ride
Does anyone that has been through the 1999 crash find this post funny? Keep going 22 year old, you are probably smarter than people that have had money in the market for large bear markets in the past. After all the last time the market crashed you were 15.
I just looked at a couple of my funds and they returned similar numbers, you know what I did last month trading NOTHING!!!
I thought I knew it all when I was his age (although I had a roth opened way before that) I learned that I didn't.
MikeR397 said: ifyouhavetoask said: You're day trading your retirement fund?Ifyouhavetoask, not to argue over semantics, but it's not really day trading. I am buying and selling more about once every 2/3 weeks (whatever, you can call it day trading if you want ). The reason I am doing this now is because:
1)I have ZERO $ commissions 2)I pay ZERO $ in ANY capital gains I ever make. 3)I have that kind of time this summer at my job before I start law school. 4)The accounting for frequent trades in a Roth is much less of a headach. 5)I made 9.5% return on my principal in the month of June alone. How much did you make?
Next, keep in mind I am 22 years old, and just opened my Roth 4 months ago (so I have a starting principal of 4k). If I had a substantial Roth, I would likely not actively trade most my stocks like this. Furthermore, I am investing in indicies (actually ETF's of indicies so I can get the $0 commissions). The rules of my Roth game consist of the following:
1) Buy only ETF's based on broad indicies (foreign and domestic) or very well diversified mutual funds 2) Sell when I make a short term profit that looks abnormal to me (completely subjective, usually around 3%+) 3) Buy after a short term loss that looks abnormal to me (again, subjective, such as if it falls 3%+ in a day/week) 4) If I buy, and it drops, I will be patient until it rebounds and I profit. These are well diversified indicies/mutual fund ETF's and in the long run, I stand essentially no risk of not making a solid return.
I'm just trying to take advantage of the peaks and troughs during the eventual upward ride
Do you really think there is that much inefficiency in the market?
ScootyPuffSr said: I never said I could time the market.
I said you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes the meaning and definitions of day trading and upper middle class.
There is no true definition of day trading and upper middle class.
Day trading is a generic term, used to describe an attempt to profit from jumping in and out of stocks. Some people consider it to mean that you don't hold a position overnight. Some people use it to describe timing the market in general. Do you also believe that a "penny stock" has to be less than $1.00?
"Upper Middle Class", even using today's bastardized definition, doesn't include the working class who contribute to 401k's and get a weekly/semi-weekly paycheck.
A successful doctor, attorney, et al, are upper middle class.
A code monkey at Cicso, even if he's making $120k/year, is not upper middle class. He's a wage slave.
ifyouhavetoask said: Using a retirement fund to try to time the market is only slightly smarter than playing online poker. I don't disagree that timing the market is a futile attempt for most, if not all. See my previous post for why I am doing it. But what is up with this statement? I suggest an experiment; ifyouhavetoask, you can join me in it...
Case A: ifyouhavetoask: You can play online poker for 40 years.
Case B: Me: I will try to time the market while leveraging the information I learned from my quadruple majors in college (including Finance and Economics) in a tax free capital gain retirement account.
We will see who is in a "slightly" better financial situation when they retire.
jayK said: ifyouhavetoask said: No one here, including me, can time the market on a consistent basis. If you think you can, please tell us where the Dow will close tomorrow, next Tuesday, and next Friday.Yet you seem to already know what will happen to the dollar and the credit market in the next several months.
LOL, priceless. She's assured that no one can time the market but she's sure the housing market/credit bubble will collapse. Btw, I happen to agree with you about housing/finance, but that's not relevant to this thread..
Again, if you don't feel comfortable please sit aside. I'm sure people have made plenty of $(myself included) on the short side of the trade lately. No one ever said timing was easy, or that people can/will pick exact peak/troughs, but there's money to be made. You're very foolish to think no one can time the markets. There are plenty of mutual funds out there that will say otherwise, forgive me if I don't post their tickers..
ifyouhavetoask said: longwood8 said: From earlier in this thread:
ifyouhavetoask said: If you draw a paycheck, you're not "upper-middle class".
Someone buy this woman a dictionary.
Really?
"Upper middle class" isn't working for someone else and putting money into a 401k. Those people are worker bees. Does that mean CEO's don't ever get a paycheck? I don't work for anyone but I get a weekly paycheck. Does $300k+ put me in upper middle-class?
czarandy said: Regardless of what you might think it means, upper middle class is usually defined as earning > $100k, and includes professionals like lawyers, doctors, executives, professors, etc.
I agree, partially. Someone with a true profession... a successful doctor, lawyer, et al, may be upper middle class.
The problem is, we've stretched the definition of "profession" to include anyone who has a job and a title. We've stretched the definition of "upper class" to include anyone who can afford cable tv and a cell phone
Dealguy123 said: jayK said: ifyouhavetoask said: No one here, including me, can time the market on a consistent basis. If you think you can, please tell us where the Dow will close tomorrow, next Tuesday, and next Friday.Yet you seem to already know what will happen to the dollar and the credit market in the next several months.
LOL, priceless. She's assured that no one can time the market but she's sure the housing market/credit bubble will collapse. Btw, I happen to agree with you about housing/finance, but that's not relevant to this thread..
Again, if you don't feel comfortable please sit aside. I'm sure people have made plenty of $(myself included) on the short side of the trade lately. No one ever said timing was easy, or that people can/will pick exact peak/troughs, but there's money to be made. You're very foolish to think no one can time the markets. There are plenty of mutual funds out there that will say otherwise, forgive me if I don't post their tickers..
A long term investor knows one thing: That the equity markets will rise over time. A market timer trys to time those moves.
If you cannot see that the credit markets are collapsing, I don't know what to tell you.
I'm not attempting to time the collapse, and I'm not suggesting you try.
What I am saying is this: If you see the train coming, get out of the way. You can get back on the track later on, once the train has passed. I'm not suggesting, by any means, that you try to time the train's passage. That would be foolish.
ifyouhavetoask said: I'm not attempting to time the collapse, and I'm not suggesting you try.
ifyouhavetoask said: Put your money in Euros right now. Wait about 4-6 months... let the credit markets get blown out. Wait for the blood in the streets and a panic in the dollar. Then, start looking for opportunity.
richfish13 said: 120k a year put you in the top 1% of income earners in the world. Yeah, 120k, man that guy has it rough.
It's not about income.
It's about control of your own life.
A successful doctor or lawyer, who runs their own practice, is in control of their own life, and is considered upper middle class.
Making $120,000/year by working at Apple Computer, is nothing more than agreeing to trade your life for X number of dollars per year. That's not freedom, and that's not independence.
A big part of your social class involves your ability to control your own destiny. If you're investing in a 401k plan, and your boss can fire you, you aren't free. You're trading your freedom for money. That's not "upper" anything.
jayK said: ifyouhavetoask said: I'm not attempting to time the collapse, and I'm not suggesting you try.
ifyouhavetoask said: Put your money in Euros right now. Wait about 4-6 months... let the credit markets get blown out. Wait for the blood in the streets and a panic in the dollar. Then, start looking for opportunity.
It's amusing that you like to troll me, and try to turn my words against me, instead of using constructive comments to engage in the conversation.
You've either completely missed my point about the credit markets, or you don't have the financial resources to be affected by them.
Either way, your hate comes through loud and clear in your posts. That's a shame.
dmlavigne1 said: MikeR397 said: I don't see how that qualifies as day trading?! Short term trading w/o any tax consequences is a great benefit of IRA's.. If you don't feel comfortable doing it by all means sit aside, but there's no reason to knock anyone else for it. Also, please post constructive criticism to people's comments. Posting pure sarcastic bs is not appreciated by anyone.Ifyouhavetoask, not to argue over semantics, but it's not really day trading. I am buying and selling more about once every 2/3 weeks (whatever, you can call it day trading if you want ). The reason I am doing this now is because:
1)I have ZERO $ commissions 2)I pay ZERO $ in ANY capital gains I ever make. 3)I have that kind of time this summer at my job before I start law school. 4)I made 9.5% absolute return on my principal in the month of June alone. How much did you make?
Next, keep in mind I am 22 years old, and just opened my Roth 4 months ago (so I have a starting principal of 4k). If I had a substantial Roth, I would likely not actively trade most my stocks like this. Furthermore, I am investing in indicies (actually ETF's of indicies so I can get the $0 commissions). The rules of my Roth game consist of the following:
1) Buy only ETF's based on broad indicies (foreign and domestic) or very well diversified mutual funds 2) Sell when I make a short term profit that looks abnormal to me (completely subjective, usually around 3%+) 3) Buy after a short term loss that looks abnormal to me (again, subjective, such as if it falls 3%+ in a day/week) 4) If I buy, and it drops, I will be patient until it rebounds and I profit. These are well diversified indicies/mutual fund ETF's and in the long run, I stand essentially no risk of not making a solid return.
I'm just trying to take advantage of the peaks and troughs during the eventual upward ride
Does anyone that has been through the 1999 crash find this post funny? Keep going 22 year old, you are probably smarter than people that have had money in the market for large bear markets in the past. After all the last time the market crashed you were 15.
I just looked at a couple of my funds and they returned similar numbers, you know what I did last month trading NOTHING!!!
I thought I knew it all when I was his age (although I had a roth opened way before that) I learned that I didn't.I don't claim to be an expert. I never did. I do have some financial knowledge (and I realize there is so much more to learn), but I am not inept.
I also didn't recommend my "timing" strategy to anyone. I'm happy you were able to match my return in June, congrats.
Finally, let me emphasize again, the biggest reason I am doing this now is for fun. Some people play online poker with thier money and get kicks when they win. I try to do well in the stock market by actively trading. I don't play poker, I don't do any "typical" form of gambling (don't call the stock market gambling as I don't want to get into that conversation). Trust me, when I'm back in school full time or slaving away at as an associate, I'll be a good boy and max out my 401k, and take advantage of any other opportunities I am still eligible for (probably not Roth anymore then). I'll toss the cash in, leave it alone, and watch is grow. This active trading parade only lasts one more month for me anyway until class starts again. Until then, it serves as a form of entertainment for me. Right now, I'm getting paid for my entertainment which is more than most can say .
ifyouhavetoask said: You've either completely missed my point about the credit markets, or you don't have the financial resources to be affected by them.Telling that you've resorted to ad-hominem attacks.
The fact remains that you tell people to avoid trying to time market collapses just after you tell people to try to time the collapse of the credit market and the dollar.
One of these is not your true opinion...which is it?
jayK said: ifyouhavetoask said: I'm not attempting to time the collapse, and I'm not suggesting you try.
ifyouhavetoask said: Put your money in Euros right now. Wait about 4-6 months... let the credit markets get blown out. Wait for the blood in the streets and a panic in the dollar. Then, start looking for opportunity.OMG, that is so perfect!
ifyouhavetoask said: richfish13 said: 120k a year put you in the top 1% of income earners in the world. Yeah, 120k, man that guy has it rough.
It's not about income.
It's about control of your own life.
A successful doctor or lawyer, who runs their own practice, is in control of their own life, and is considered upper middle class.
Making $120,000/year by working at Apple Computer, is nothing more than agreeing to trade your life for X number of dollars per year. That's not freedom, and that's not independence.
A big part of your social class involves your ability to control your own destiny. If you're investing in a 401k plan, and your boss can fire you, you aren't free. You're trading your freedom for money. That's not "upper" anything.
Thats just the way it is. People have this idea that everyone can be wealthy and independent and free to do whatever they want. That is IMPOSSIBLE for EVERYONE. Put it in perspective, go visit the world. I just got back from India and half the people there would literally give their first born up for a 120k job.
ifyouhavetoask said: A long term investor knows one thing: That the equity markets will rise over time. A market timer trys to time those moves.
You can do long term investing with some "timing" here and there. Markets don't go up forever, and taking some $ off the table at times is actually very wise. Like I said, your odds may not be great, but it's not even close to completely random. I called the housing bust in Dec '04, it came in summer '05. If I would've bought a place back then, I'd be out 20%+ of the initial investment. So, was I extremely lucky or did my due diligence and research pay off? I won't argue that..
ifyouhavetoask said: If you cannot see that the credit markets are collapsing, I don't know what to tell you.
I'm not attempting to time the collapse, and I'm not suggesting you try.
What I am saying is this: If you see the train coming, get out of the way. You can get back on the track later on, once the train has passed. I'm not suggesting, by any means, that you try to time the train's passage. That would be foolish.
I agree with you about credit market collapsing, and your belief in that should mean something to your investing. If it doesn't to you fine, but going short some financials might be a smart move. If it's going to collapse, then why not put some $ behind your beliefs? That's the boat I'm in, you just don't put $ where your mouth is. In order to beat the market you have to have conviction/guts and sometimes be contrarian. Again, saying no one beats the market is completely false. I am certainly no expert, but when the downside risk becomes much higher than the upside potential, I take some $ off the table.
That's a very poor analogy, and very confusing..? You're saying if you see a train coming, get out of the way.. that's timing if I've ever heard it?! lol In terms of timing, the point is that if you see a train at all, that means it's all over, so you can't "get out of the way" by definition. If you believe you can "get out of the way," you've just timed the market, only difference is that you didn't have the guts to sell.
MikeR397 said: Right now, I'm getting paid for my entertainment which is more than most can say . Actually, I believe that's called defrauding your employer... no offense implied, I'm doing it now as well...
Venturion said: MikeR397 said: Right now, I'm getting paid for my entertainment which is more than most can say .Actually, I believe that's called defrauding your employer... no offense implied, I'm doing it now as well... w00t! Group HUG!
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