App-O-Rama officially launched 4/4/07 - see below !!
One application submitted early (3/21/07) due to targeted offer deadline - see below UPDATE (4/2/07): Revised the card list. A little leaner, a little more bonus oriented, and also modified in the wake of the cardoffers.com annoucement. See my most recent post for more details
Goals: 1. Acquire as much no/low fee 0% BT money as humanly possible for... a. High Yield Savings b. Pay my taxes at 0%, which should be $6-10k for 2006 2. Acquire new credit for the purpose of improving my long term credit profile 3. Accumulate statement credits / card offers / bonus cash / airline miles, etc.
I've been fascinated by the whole idea of the AOR since I stumbled onto it here at FWF a couple months ago. After taking my time reading through as much of the AOR and related threads and receiving a little bit of encouragement (thanks map174!) I've decided to take the plunge. Thanks, of course, to everyone here at FWF who have provided such an amazing source of information on AORs and finances in general - SIS, DH, everyone.
I likely won't be buying a house or a car for at least 14-15 months, so I'm not concerned about my credit in the meantime. On top of my full-time job as a teacher, I play poker as sort of a part-time job, which is why I will have the $6-10k taxes due. I could pay off the taxes in cash if I wanted, but I'd rather not just lose several thousand dollars in one fell swoop. Having a large cash bankroll when playing poker is a significant psychological advantage, and losing that much money would make me feel like I was playing somewhat underrolled. By paying off my taxes with BT money, I avoid the IRS interest fees and get to pay it off in chunks along with the rest of my AOR cards. This will cut into my AOR profits somewhat, but hopefully I can get enough to work with that 6-10k won't be a big deal.
Existing Credit History:
Current TC FAKOs (3/20/07): 754/752/752 TU/EX/EQ
Revolving Credit (age/limit): Generic Chase Visa - 2yrs - $500 (attempted BT on app, but they only gave me $500? cmon) Chase Buy.com Visa - 1.5yrs - $3500 Citi Verizon Visa - 7yrs - $3300 (being replaced by a Diamond Preferred Rewards AMEX at the end of March) Dell Preferred Account - 1yr - $1500
All of these accounts currently have a $0 balance, although ~$1500 is still showing on TU reports.
Installment Accounts (age/balance): Sallie Mae Student Loans - 1.5yr - $14500 (locked in at 3% AND deferred at the moment) GMAC Auto Loan - 4mos - $22000
So, my current revolving credit isn't that impressive. I'm relatively young, but I still was clearly just not aware of how to really take advantage of credit opportunities for several years, applied for some dumb cards, and never requested any CLIs. Hopefully, the fact that my highest limit is $3500 won't hurt me too much. My credit scores seem to be pretty solid overall, though, which should help. By the time the balances are reported correctly to TU and EQ, my FAKOs should be around 775/755/755. For some reason my TU scores are always higher, even though almost all of my past inquiries are from TU (6/1/1). Also, I've been receiving tons of pretty decent to great targeted offers, which is encouraging. The fear is just that I get a ton of tiny lines that require a bunch of reallocating just to get a decent wad of BT cash. I haven't yet decided whether or not I'm going to go the 49% or 89% utilization route, and my results may impact which way I go.
Targeted Credit Cards List: *subject to change, still under consideration*
AMEX Blue Instant Approval - $10,100 - Instant CLI to $23,500 *Targeted offer *0% for 12 months (Yes, on BTs!), NO FEE
AMEX IN:Chicago ApplyInstant Approval - $5,000 - Instant CLI to $20,000 *0% for 6 months, NO FEE *$40 from cardoffers
Bank of America
Bank of America NEA Worldpoints Platinum Plus Mastercard: ApplyApproved after phone call - $5,000, see below *0% for 12 months, 2% fee with a max of $30 *I am teacher at the moment, and I applied for NEA, so I should actually qualify for this legitimately, as well as the BofA NEA MMA!
Bank of America Financial Rewards Platinum Plus VisaApplyInstant Approval - $5,600 - reallocate with NEA card? *0% for 6 months, no fee
Bank of America Star Wars Platinum Plus VisaApplyDeferred - CSR called 2 hours later, said I was approved and offered $2500 and $2500 for this and the NEA card, I opted to merge both under NEA and discard this app *0% for 12 months, 3% fee with a max of $75 *The only 0%/12 capped BofA card open to everyone?
Chase
Chase Platinum MastercardDeferred - DENIED!! *Targeted, pre-approved offer - April 18th deadline *0% until 8/1/08 (~15mos!), NO FEE
Chase Sony Platinum Visa ApplyInstantly Approved - $2,500 "temporary line," hopefully the real one is more! *0% for 12 months, 3% fee with a max of $75 *$100 statement credit
Citibank
Citi Professional MastercardApply Deferred - Approved! - $6,000 *0% for 12 months, NO FEE *15k TY Points ($150 value)
Citi Driver's Edge Platinum Select Mastercard ApplyDeferred - Approved - $3,600 *0% for 12 months, NO FEE *$28 from instantprofitz NEW
CitiBusiness MastercardApplyDeferred, then approved! - $15,000 *0% for 12 months, NO FEE *15k TY Points ($150 Value)
Discover
Discover Miles CardApplyInstantly Approved - $6,000 *0% for 12 months, NO FEE *1k miles a month with any purchase *$40 from instantprofitz NEW
The Other Guys
HSBC Platinum MastercardApplyInstantly Approved - $5,750 *0% for 12 months, NO FEE *If you go through the link above and look in the fine print, it says "There is no cash advance fee for balance transfers that post to your Account during the Introductory Period;" However, I haven't seen this listed anywhere else. I've always seen HSBC cards listed as 3%/$99.
Advanta Business PlatinumInstant Denial! *0% for 15 months, $75 max
CLIs AMEX Blue - $10,100 -> requested $23,500, approved for $23,500 Chase Buy.com - $3,500 -> requested $10,000 approved for $15,000 - hard pull (I think?) AMEX IN:Chicago - $5,000 -> requested $20,000 approved for $20,000
Condensed Results: Advanta Platinum Business - Instant denial! AMEX Blue - Instantly Approved - $10,100 -> $23,500 via CLI page AMEX IN:Chicago - Instantly Approved - $5,000 -> $20,000 BofA Financial Rewards - Instantly Approved - $5,600 BofA NEA Worldpoints - Approved - $5,000 - Reallocate with FR card? BofA Star Wars - deferred, then approved for $2,500 and discarded to create NEA CL Chase Platinum - deferred - denied! Chase Sony - Instantly Approved - $2,500 "temporary limit" Citi Drivers Edge - deferred - Approved - $3,600 Citi Professional - deferred - Approved - $6,000 CitiBusiness - deferred - Approved - $15,000 Discover - Instantly Approved - $6,000 HSBC - Instantly Approved - $5,750
Cards applied for: 13 Final Results: 11 approvals (6 instant), 2 denials New credit so far: $104,450 including CLIs
Final Total Credit: $113,250 - $98,250 Personal, $15,000 Business
Initial Reactions: I knew I was somewhat pushing it with this AOR, and I was prepared for some degree of failure. I was not expecting 100% success rate on these, and was expecting several to be deferred. I was expecting mixed results, and it looks like that's what I have so far. What happens with the deferred cards will make a big difference, but I don't feel too bad about this overall. I ended up kind of whimping out on a couple of the Apps, like the National City and PNC, primarily because of the growing list of deferred results. I also added in the Advanta Platinum card in place of one of the FNBO Platinum.
Some quick comments:
* Instant Advanta denial, wow! * Really disappointed by the Chase Platinum offer being deferred. Hopefully I can get it approved and do some reallocation with Chase to get the bulk of my credit on that card, but still keep the Sony for the $100 credit * Is being approved without the initial line listed for HSBC and Discover normal? * I plan on reallocating/merging the two BofA lines to get a decent $10,000ish line to work with. I'm not 100% on how willing BofA is to do that, but I'll look into it * Not overly concerned about the Citi apps all being deferred, as I doubt I'm completely shutout. Hopefully I get one or two of those with a decent sized line. Plus I can always reallocate away from my existing Citi card. * Still debating what to do with the IN:Chicago card. I don't want to press my luck too much, but the possibilities are enticing... * I forgot to request a hard pull CLI for my existing Citi card... should I go ahead and try, and hope they don't pull again? * More to come later...
So, the initial effects of the inquiries themselves don't appear to be that bad. 13 total apps went out, and one hard pull CLI, and 10 inquiries hit my report in all. The worst drop was from TU, where 5 new inquiries resulted in an 11 point drop in score. No big deal, really. When I start BTing and my utilization shoots up though, the effects will be MUCH greater, though.
Balance Transfer History:
AMEX Blue - $23,500 - $20,000 BT to HSBC debit card - complete Citi Professional - $6000 - $5,300 BT to HSBC debit card - approved, not yet posted CitiBusiness - $15,000 - $13,350 BT to HSBC debit card - pending BofA NEA - $10,600 - $9,000 BT to checking by phone - not yet posted Chase Sony - $14,500 - $8,600 BT via check - deposited, not yet posted
And after I make a purchase for the 1,000 miles:
Discover - $6,000 - $5,200 BT to HSBC debit card
Total BT Money: $61,450
Estimated interest (GMAC 5.30%APY) - BT Fees: ~$2,500 Signup bonuses/credits/etc: $508 IF I get all of the money from cardoffers and instantprofitz, not counting any Discover Miles
TrueCredit tracking (TU/EXP/EQ): (Pulling daily, but scores updated on this post only when there are changes) 04/02/07 - 754 747 754 04/04/07 - 743 740 748 - Two hours after AOR 04/06/07 - 741 743 747 04/09/07 - 741 730 747 04/10/07 - 741 730 751 04/11/07 - 741 736 751 04/14/07 - 741 736 735 04/20/07 - 751 736 735 - Now showing 6/5/3 inquiries - down from 12/5/3 ?? 6 TU inquiries bumped in one day? 04/25/07 - 751 736 737 05/02/07 - 751 736 717 05/03/07 - 751 711 717 - AMEX w/ 20k balance showed up on EX/EQ 05/07/07 - 731 722 717 - TU finally updated w/ AMEX etc, BofA account closed, balance showed up on Sony Card 05/08/07 - 731 699 686 - BofA balance shows up on EX/EQ, HSBC account shows up on EQ, other AMEX account still not there 05/10/07 - 725 699 686 05/17/07 - 702 678 688 - BofA, Sony balance now showing on all reports, and my first EQ inquiry is bumped! 05/29/07 - 720 695 691 - AMEX IN card finally shows up, small boost due to utilization 06/15/07 - 722 695 691 - One more TU inquiry bumped! 06/17/07 - 727 695 691 - Two more TU inquiries bumped! 06/19/07 - 730 695 691 - Another TU inquiry bumped! 06/22/07 - 735 695 691 - Yet another TU inquiry bumped! Current inquiries: 1 TU, 5 EX, 2 EQ 06/28/07 - 735 695 691 - Final TU inquiry bumped!
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destroebl said:On top of my full-time job as a teacher, I play poker as sort of a part-time job, which is why I will have the $6-10k taxes due. I could pay off the taxes in cash if I wanted, but I'd rather not just lose several thousand dollars in one fell swoop. Having a large cash bankroll when playing poker is a significant psychological advantage, and losing that much money would make me feel like I was playing somewhat underrolled. You are essentially borrowing money at 0% to go play poker with, that is a terrible idea. If you can't afford to comfortably pay your income taxes, you are spending too much somewhere.
You can choose to look at it that way if you want, but it's not really that way at all. It seems kind of silly, and I may not do it this way, but it's purely for a psychological advantage. In general, your bankroll is huge compared to the money you actively play with in a given session - in my case 40 buy-ins for the game I play. Unless I went through a catastrophic period and lost over half of that money, I would never be down to my last 6-10k, and I shouldnt even come close to sniffing that money. If that did happen, I would likely be taking a break or even quitting. If I didn't use that money to pay taxes, it would be sitting in my HSBC account. So, no, it's not really like gambling with borrowed money.
It pretty much boils down to being a wuss. Like I said, I may just pay it off after all, but it would just feel nicer to have a larger roll to work with.
Chances are you won't get approved for three Discover cards. I would limit my applications with Discover to one to start off with.
Also, considering your current limits are on the low end, you can expect to get cards with relatively low limits (I had this problem with Chase before where they would only give me 3k - 4k per card, to little to do BT with). You may instead want to focus on getting the big sign up bonuses, while letting the new accounts age and asking for more credit for your next AOR after this one. Especially the "free flight ticket" cards if miles are valuable to you.
If your goal is to play the 0% game I would work on increasing your current lines first so future CC companies are more likely to offer better credit lines. Search for cli without hard pull.
Uh......I clicked on thw BOA links and two were junk. The Star Wars makes no mention of the fees being capped for BT. Also, is the AMEX Blue a targeted offer because this is one I have never seen or heard of. The number of cards you have is fine. I ended up with 28 new accounts on my Nov 2006 AOR. I don't think gambling and an AOR are a good combo. Too much can go wrong no matter how diligent you are.
Seeing how your current CLs are rather small, I'd scale this down considerably. I might only apply to a single Am.Ex. for example (but would yield to the CLI love temptation). If you go ahead, I'd expect a significant number of rejections and mostly small CLs - your current maximum CC CL is only $3.5k!
Have you tried Citi CLI button? If that doesn't give you any love, why do you think Citi would extend you more credit? From personal experience, I applied for a citi plat card, but because my total CL with CITI was sufficiently high, they only gave me $1k limit and told me I could reallocate.
Indeed, best bet would be to apply for that targeted AMEX, get that to $24.9k, have a couple of month to reflect on the credit report - then you'll have a better chance of qualifying for other cards with more useful limits. Do come back to share the results, whatever you end up doing
Gambling: If anyone reading is still concerned with the "gambling with BT money" issue, which I'm not, please read my earlier response on that. I may or may not pay my taxes with BT money, but I will not be gambling with BT money at any point. I probably shouldn't have mentioned this, knowing the FWF crowd.
Oranje and Happy Guy: Thanks for the response. Do you think reallocating is not option should I get a number of small lines? I've seen others with similar concerns in other threads who were told that reallocation or consolidation will alleviate these problems.
dbalkunjr: The links are fixed. Yes, AMEX was a targeted offer, as it says in the details. See above for gambling comments.
Economist said:Seeing how your current CLs are rather small, I'd scale this down considerably. I might only apply to a single Am.Ex. for example (but would yield to the CLI love temptation). If you go ahead, I'd expect a significant number of rejections and mostly small CLs - your current maximum CC CL is only $3.5k!
Have you tried Citi CLI button? If that doesn't give you any love, why do you think Citi would extend you more credit? From personal experience, I applied for a citi plat card, but because my total CL with CITI was sufficiently high, they only gave me $1k limit and told me I could reallocate.
Indeed, best bet would be to apply for that targeted AMEX, get that to $24.9k, have a couple of month to reflect on the credit report - then you'll have a better chance of qualifying for other cards with more useful limits. Do come back to share the results, whatever you end up doing
Thanks for the comments!
No, I haven't tried the CLI for Citi or Chase yet. I planned on doing that as part of the AOR to minimize the inquiries effect on the AOR, since both of them are definitely hard pulls. Overly cautious?
I have considered postponing for a month or so after the AMEX is reported - that DOES sound like a decent strategy. From what I had read, reallocation can make a situation like this reasonable. I assume you disagree?
I'm not sure how successful you're going to be here. Considering your current tradelines I don't think you're going to get huge lines, especially from Chase and Discover.
You need to be aware that going wild on that AMEX CLI request can cause you a lot of grief, namely a financial review.
Also be aware that once new accounts are opened they all do account review checks on your credit. While you may time the applications in such a way that the inquiries aren't seen in later applications, I can guarantee you they will see the inquiries in an account review and you could have trouble.
destroebl said: No, I haven't tried the CLI for Citi or Chase yet. I planned on doing that as part of the AOR to minimize the inquiries effect on the AOR, since both of them are definitely hard pulls. Overly cautious?
Repeating myself here, you want to increase your lines asap without hard pulls, wait for them to show on your credit report then do your AOR. There is a specific thread dedicated to CLI w/o hard pulls.
If you apply for 3 AMEX cards, request crack-CLIs, then do balance transfers, you're almost definitely going to get heat from AMEX. I wouldn't bother.
Also, it's already been mentioned, you probably aren't going to get big tradelines, just because of the somewhat limited size of your current ones. However, this may recommend a strategic reorientation of your AOR. I'm thinking that 0% investment isn't going to make you very much money, maybe you should consider weighting bonuses more heavily. For a data point, on my own AOR, I advanced $70,000 in 0% money. I estimate it will earn $2500-$3000 over the course of the year. However, I also got $2000 immediately by aggressively targeting card bonuses and bank/brokerage bonuses.
Is there an expiration date on either the AMEX or Chase targeted offers? They are pretty choice, but saving them might be more worthwhile.
Here are some specific recommendations per bank:
AMEX: I'd probably just apply for one card. If the targeted blue offer expires soon, I'd apply for that. If you can save it for 6 months or a year, I'd apply for one of the other ones.
Citi: 0% for life won't help on a small line, so I'd be tempted to skip on the for life card, and go after the hot signup bonuses. Citi Professional is a good one, maybe one of the CitiBusiness cards that can get you 15k points, and then maybe a purely personal card that also has 10k points (and a 0%/12 months). I recommend reallocating some credit from your old card to the new one with the 0%, though.
Chase: Multiple apps probably won't result in a greater total CL. Therefore, for 0% purposes, one card will do. (You can apply for multiple cards for bonuses though, I got three in mine). A 12mo Sony card with a $100 bonus may be more profitable 15mo 0% card without a bonus.
Discover: Is a pain in the butt. They don't let you reallocate credit between cards, and they all have near identical signup deals (0% purchase and BT, 12mo). Therefore, I only recommend applying for one a year. Pick the one that has the most appealing rewards structure to you like the most. Hopefully, next year's card will have an even bigger CL.
FNB Omaha: Other people's AORs report that FNBO rejects apps from AORs (too many inquiries, etc). Good luck.
State Farm: One FWFer had his State Farm app denied for too many inquiries. Not as harsh a track record as FNBO.
HSBC: Tends to give out crappy CL's on all their cards. When I applied for my aor, I did a GM flexcard only for the cardoffers bonus of like $40. In hindsight, this was pretty smart, because the CL was only $2500, and that seems pretty high to other FWFers. (It still had a 0% deal, too). The good news? You might be getting crappy CL's from everyone, so it won't feel as insulting.
And you know what, I may be overly pessimistic about the size of your new CL's. Compared to me, you've got similar FAKOs, smaller tradelines, but a larger reported HHI. It might well balance out. You might also get randomly high and low CLs.
jason745 said:How are your poker "winnings" taxable? 6 - 10k for 2006? That seems like an awful lot.
I've played at the casino for years and have NEVER received a tax form from the poker room cashier.
I have for a slot win, but never a poker win.Just because you don't receive a 1099 for income doesn't mean it's not taxable. The OP's poker winnings are certainly taxable, though he can deduct his losses from that.
Junior02 said:You need to be aware that going wild on that AMEX CLI request can cause you a lot of grief, namely a financial review.
If I were to apply for all 3, I would likely only do a BT on the targeted offer after boosting it to 24k. The other two will help with utilization, but I wouldn't push the CLI too high. I could consider a BT on the IN card, but it's not necessary. The $40 + utilization/credit benefits of having another easy large line is pretty good on it's own.
HappyGuy said:destroebl said: No, I haven't tried the CLI for Citi or Chase yet. I planned on doing that as part of the AOR to minimize the inquiries effect on the AOR, since both of them are definitely hard pulls. Overly cautious?
Repeating myself here, you want to increase your lines asap without hard pulls, wait for them to show on your credit report then do your AOR. There is a specific thread dedicated to CLI w/o hard pulls.
I've read through that thread, and virtually every thing I read suggested that it was difficult or impossible to avoid the hard pulls with Chase and Citi. The online forms for both are definite hard pulls. I've called Citi, and the CSR said they could not do it without a hard pull. I haven't yet called Chase, but I suppose I can give that a shot before I do this. Again: do you think reallocation/consolidation will just not fly for me should I get a lot of small lines?
jason745 said:How are your poker "winnings" taxable? 6 - 10k for 2006? That seems like an awful lot.
I've played at the casino for years and have NEVER received a tax form from the poker room cashier.
I have for a slot win, but never a poker win.
As beckles said, poker winnings are most certainly taxable, like every other red cent you make in America. It's a complete pain to track and report these winnings properly, but it must be done unless you want to live in fear of an audit and the nightmares that would follow. I play poker, which technically is gambling... but I don't gamble THAT much.
markkundinger said:If you apply for 3 AMEX cards, request crack-CLIs, then do balance transfers, you're almost definitely going to get heat from AMEX. I wouldn't bother.
Also, it's already been mentioned, you probably aren't going to get big tradelines, just because of the somewhat limited size of your current ones. However, this may recommend a strategic reorientation of your AOR. I'm thinking that 0% investment isn't going to make you very much money, maybe you should consider weighting bonuses more heavily. For a data point, on my own AOR, I advanced $70,000 in 0% money. I estimate it will earn $2500-$3000 over the course of the year. However, I also got $2000 immediately by aggressively targeting card bonuses and bank/brokerage bonuses.
Is there an expiration date on either the AMEX or Chase targeted offers? They are pretty choice, but saving them might be more worthwhile.
Here are some specific recommendations per bank:
AMEX: I'd probably just apply for one card. If the targeted blue offer expires soon, I'd apply for that. If you can save it for 6 months or a year, I'd apply for one of the other ones.
Citi: 0% for life won't help on a small line, so I'd be tempted to skip on the for life card, and go after the hot signup bonuses. Citi Professional is a good one, maybe one of the CitiBusiness cards that can get you 15k points, and then maybe a purely personal card that also has 10k points (and a 0%/12 months). I recommend reallocating some credit from your old card to the new one with the 0%, though.
Chase: Multiple apps probably won't result in a greater total CL. Therefore, for 0% purposes, one card will do. (You can apply for multiple cards for bonuses though, I got three in mine). A 12mo Sony card with a $100 bonus may be more profitable 15mo 0% card without a bonus.
Discover: Is a pain in the butt. They don't let you reallocate credit between cards, and they all have near identical signup deals (0% purchase and BT, 12mo). Therefore, I only recommend applying for one a year. Pick the one that has the most appealing rewards structure to you like the most. Hopefully, next year's card will have an even bigger CL.
FNB Omaha: Other people's AORs report that FNBO rejects apps from AORs (too many inquiries, etc). Good luck.
State Farm: One FWFer had his State Farm app denied for too many inquiries. Not as harsh a track record as FNBO.
HSBC: Tends to give out crappy CL's on all their cards. When I applied for my aor, I did a GM flexcard only for the cardoffers bonus of like $40. In hindsight, this was pretty smart, because the CL was only $2500, and that seems pretty high to other FWFers. (It still had a 0% deal, too). The good news? You might be getting crappy CL's from everyone, so it won't feel as insulting.
And you know what, I may be overly pessimistic about the size of your new CL's. Compared to me, you've got similar FAKOs, smaller tradelines, but a larger reported HHI. It might well balance out. You might also get randomly high and low CLs.
First of all, thanks so much for the lengthy comments/advice - much appreciated.
About the AMEX cards: see my above post for that issue. I don't think I will push it as much as you describe.
The idea of refocusing the AOR is a reasonable one. I may consider skewing in that direction somewhat when I finally launch this. I have to be honest: I don't want to abandon BTs totally, but perhaps adjusting the cards that I target somewhat to be a bit more focused on signup bonuses/etc AND also with BT offers could be something I'd feel comfortable with.
Unfortunately, yes both of the targeted offers have expiration dates. I actually thought both of them expired in April, but actually the AMEX expires March 22! I guess I'll be applying for that one this week, regardless. The Chase offer does expire April 19, though. Either way, it seems like stalling a few months with these offers in mind is not a possibility.
Thanks for the issuer specific advice. I'll take a look at Citi cards again and try to maximize the signup/first purchase bonuses - you're right about the 0% for Life, it was the least appealing to me of the 3 I listed.
Discover: point taken. It seems I overlooked how tough they were when planning this, as several have echoed your concerns and I've read some of this myself in other threads since posting. One card is fine. I do actually have a targeted offer Discover Platinum that is 0% through June 08 with no fee. Only downside is no cardoffers/bonus.
HSBC: I do remember reading some of this in other threads. Perhaps, especially given my current history, I could do without this one.
For the others: Is it bad that I'm not afraid of some denials? I'm definitely leaning more towards a leaner AOR than all 19 I listed, anyways, but I've been of the attitude that I will just try to see what I can get, and work from there. The inquiries alone don't scare me, since I don't need my FICO to be very high for some time, and I triple-pull daily, which should eventually start knocking some of these off my reports. Am I being too optimistic?
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