Edit by Moderator- This thread has been locked due to the excessive political angle. FatWallet does not allow political discussion.
Found an interesting article at http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/jun/11dollar.htm
The coming collapse of the US dollar
The skew in the global financial system -- commonly called 'global imbalance' -- seems to be fast spiralling out of control.
For some time now economists have been engaged in the mother of all debates: whether the US dollar would collapse by as much as 40% when compared to other currencies (some are even betting on the US dollar going belly-up) or whether there would be an orderly devaluation -- that is, a gradual revaluation of other currencies vis-�-vis the US dollar.
In effect, the question that is confronting us is not 'whether' but 'when' and by 'how much.'
This global imbalance can be understood in economic terms by simply examining the massive size of America's twin deficits -- trade and budgetary. Put modestly, Americans have been living way beyond their means, consuming much more than what they could possibly afford and, in the process, borrowing far beyond their capacity for too long.
This was facilitated by a policy of maintaining weak currencies across the world, notably in Asia. This policy of maintaining a competitive exchange rate for their currency to boost exports has resulted in a race to the bottom amongst various countries.
Nevertheless, this arrangement suited countries, both Asian (with a huge unemployed population) and American, (as it provided cheap imports for its huge consumption binge).
While the going was good, everyone profited and expected the arrangement to continue indefinitely. Unfortunately, linearity as a concept has limited appeal in real life, much less is global macroeconomics.
No wonder, of late, countries are discovering that this arrangement has its limitations. The current account deficit of the United States translates into current account surplus of exporting countries. To cover this deficit, US borrows: this corresponds to the forex reserves of exporting countries. The crux of the issue is that no other country, barring the US, has such a huge consumption pattern and an ability to absorb this huge export surplus.
In substance, countries are producing their goods, exporting it mostly to the US, and parking the resulting export surpluses with the US to facilitate US to finance its imports!
Clearly, the global imbalance is a by-product of this mindless competition by various countries to devalue their own currencies and the reckless consumption in US. Naturally, it is indeed tempting to blame US consumption for this crisis. However, one must hasten to add that the emerging economies -- notably Asian countries, especially after the1998 currency crisis -- with their fixation for weak currencies, are equally to be blamed.
The net result? Well, consider these facts:
By mid-May 2007, the US National Debt stood at approximately at mind-boggling $8.85 trillion -- i.e. approximately $28,000 for every American.
The basic structure of the American economy is that the deficit of the US government is 4% of the GDP and the household sector 6%, which are offset by a domestic savings of 3%, largely from corporates, leaving a substantial national deficit of 7% to be covered by the capital flows from the rest of the world.
The current account deficit of the United States for 2006 is estimated to be in excess of $850 billion. This approximates to 7% of its GDP. Surely, even for the US, this is unsustainable.
In order to ensure that this money is routed into America and to sustain its gargantuan borrowing programme, the US has repeatedly raised its interest rate to its current levels of 5.5%. While the very size of the US debt makes any further increase in interest rates virtually impossible (as it would make borrowings uneconomical), any cut in interest rates to stimulate its economy and make it competitive would mean that the US may not get the money it requires to sustain itself.
On March 28, 2006, the Asian Development Bank [Get Quote] is reported to have issued a memo, advising members to be ready for a collapse of the US dollar.
Since end March 2006, the US Federal Reserve has stopped publishing the quantum of broad money (that is the aggregate of US dollars circulating in the entire world -- technically called 'M3') in the US economy. This is the worst possible signal that the US Federal Reserve could have sent to the world.
Suspended sense of disbelief
Obviously, what aids and sustains the US dollar is a 'suspended sense of disbelief' amongst countries about the value of US dollar. Yet, common sense tells us that the excess supply will obviously result in a fall in the value of any product. The US dollar is no exception.
Late Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein was fully aware of this paradigm. Seeking to exploit the inherent weakness of the US dollar, Saddam wanted to trade his crude in Euros, which would have lead to a lower demand for the US Dollar and thereby triggered a dollar collapse. And those were his 'weapons of mass destruction -- WMD.'
And if some analysts are to be believed, Venezuela and Iran too possess the very same WMD. Naturally, it requires some specious arguments and military intervention to protect the US dollar. Never in the history of mankind has a national army protected the national currency so vigorously as the US Army has done is the past decade or so.
What is bizarre to note here is that despite the fact that crude is produced mainly in the Middle East; officially it can be purchased in dollar terms from one of the two oil exchanges situated in New York and London. Obviously, should Iran carry out the threat to commence oil trade in Euros or better still an oil exchange, the US dollar would come under tremendous pressure.
The US dollar is akin to the promissory note of a defunct finance company. It is common knowledge that a currency, when not backed by anything precious is just a piece of paper. When US abandoned the Gold Standard in early 70s, countries habituated by then to the US dollar under the Bretton Woods arrangement continued to accept the US dollar as an international currency without demur as the world was not prepared for any other alternative. Else, the global economy would have collapsed by 1971.
But the diplomatic silence did not solve the problem. It merely postponed it and it has come back to haunt us.
Post gold standard, by a tacit approval of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) and strategic manoeuvring, the US had ensured that its currency is implicitly backed by crude, instead of gold. This explains the American 'geo-political and strategic interests' in the Middle East.
But over time even this was found to be insufficient and consequently the oil standard of the 70s gave way to an implicit multiple commodity standard of today. Naturally, commodity prices -- including crude prices -- have soared in the past few years. Unfortunately, this arrangement too is failing the US. No wonder, the US dollar increasingly resembles a promisory note of a defunct finance company.
It is no coincidence that global trade in most commodities, including oil, is denominated in US dollars as the respective international exchanges are located in the US. To what extent are the prices of these commodities manipulated to protect the US dollar is anybody's guess.
However, it may not be out of place to mention that a barrel of oil which cost less than $10 to produce is sold approximately at $70 in the international market.
But as commodity prices go up it has lead to inflation across the globe. No wonder, countries are forced to increase their interest rates to fight inflation.
This has triggered an interest rate hike across continents and the US is finding it extremely difficult to sustain its current borrowing programme: it hardly has any elbow room to manoeuvre.
Doomed if it does, damned if it doesn't
Meanwhile, countries are increasingly realizing that the value of the US dollar that they are holding is fast eroding, whatever be the 'officially managed exchange rate.' And if fewer people want the US dollar -- as for instance when oil is traded in Euro the demand for the US dollar will fall -- it would trigger an avalanche.
No wonder, the US Fed is unwilling to make public the M3 figures, as it does not want the holding position of the US dollar to be publicised.
Interestingly, in such a doomsday scenario, some economists are still betting on central banks of other countries to defend the US dollar. It would seem that the US has 'outsourced' even this sovereign function to the central banks of other countries. After all, should the US dollar collapse, the biggest losers will not be the US but those who have US dollar-denominated forex reserves.
Naturally, countries holding US dollar reserves are caught on the horns of a serious dilemma -- should they seek to correct the global imbalance, it could result in the imminent collapse of the US dollar, and should they continue to defend the US dollar, they would be a long-term loser as the current arrangement has seeds of self-destruction.
While every central banker is conscious of this fact and thereby seeks to postpone the inevitable while nervously looking for his counterpart in any other country to break ranks and thereby trigger the collapse.
Surely, the emperor is without any clothes. There are only two possibilities from here on: Either we are witness a global meltdown of the US dollar, or allow controlled US dollar devaluation (read, revaluation of other currencies). If it is a global meltdown the global economy is doomed, if is an orderly devaluation, it is damned.
Thanks for the URL-its says the information for US is up to date for year 2005. From the article above.. " By mid-May 2007, the US National Debt stood at approximately at mind-boggling $8.85 trillion -- i.e. approximately $28,000 for every American.
The basic structure of the American economy is that the deficit of the US government is 4% of the GDP and the household sector 6%, which are offset by a domestic savings of 3%, largely from corporates, leaving a substantial national deficit of 7% to be covered by the capital flows from the rest of the world.
The current account deficit of the United States for 2006 is estimated to be in excess of $850 billion. This approximates to 7% of its GDP. Surely, even for the US, this is unsustainable."
Betelgeuse
Senior Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 9:59a
Future members of FWF:
110 United Arab Emirates 9.00 2006 est. 111 Kuwait 8.10 2006 est. 112 Russia 8.00 2006 est. 113 Botswana 7.10 2006 est. 114 Libya 5.60 2006 est. 115 Wallis and Futuna 5.60 2004 est. 116 Equatorial Guinea 4.70 2006 est. 117 Oman 4.50 2006 est. 118 Chile 3.90 2006 est. 119 Estonia 3.60 2006 est. 120 Hong Kong 1.00 2006 est.
TheWalL
Senior Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 10:04a
Read the article...author assumes that US wont be able to pay down its deficits. That will not hold true. There were no budgetary deficits when Bush took over. So the debt raked up in the last 8 years can be wiped out...its the reason why dollar has become 'weak' suddenly in Q2 of this year.
Trade deficits...that has some Fed answering required.
TexAsh
Tired Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 10:09a
I sincerely hope that US will be able to pay off the debt. Since falling $ will have catastrophic effects in the global market and may even lead to another economic recession.
Remember when the dollar "collapsed" versus the last "new dominant" currency? It was 94-95, and the dollar collapsed over a few months from 105 yen to 80 yen. The world collapsed and every American was forced to live in tent cities and refugee camps for a few years.
workindev
Ancient Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 10:36a
It is a 100% certain conclusion that the US will be able to "pay off the debt". They have to - by law - when it is due. The more appropriate question is whether or not the US will continue with growth-centric policies so that this debt will continue to be insignificant compared to the size of our economy when it is due.
Our debt is no bigger now than it historically has been in relation to the size of the economy, so the focus should continue to be on economic growth, not debt reduction.
WalStMonky
Happy Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 10:39a
kamalktk said: Remember when the dollar "collapsed" versus the last "new dominant" currency? It was 94-95, and the dollar collapsed over a few months from 105 yen to 80 yen. The world collapsed and every American was forced to live in tent cities and refugee camps for a few years.
It was horrid, horrid I say. Some were forced to consume their young to stay alive, those of us who were more fortunate had to cook over greasy fires in 55 gallon drums...those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it!
This seems to be often overlooked, but to the US financing spending through borrowing or through taxes has the same cost. That is, there is nothing inherently "good" about spending tax money and nothing inherently "bad" by spending borrowed money.
TexAsh
Tired Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 10:41a
WalStMonky said: kamalktk said: Remember when the dollar "collapsed" versus the last "new dominant" currency? It was 94-95, and the dollar collapsed over a few months from 105 yen to 80 yen. The world collapsed and every American was forced to live in tent cities and refugee camps for a few years.
It was horrid, horrid I say. Some were forced to consume their young to stay alive, those of us who were more fortunate had to cook over greasy fires in 55 gallon drums...those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it!
So much for a serious discussion I can see the thread being hijacked...
workindev
Ancient Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 10:43a
Here are 5 things that China can do with their US dollars, thanks to the big trade surplus with the US (source)
1. Buy stuff from us. Our proper reaction: "Thanks for creating US jobs."
2. Invest in dollar-denominated real assets. Our proper reaction: "Thanks for helping us grow, and for increasing our tax base. We look forward to the extra growth, and the extra tax dollars we'll collect from you."
3. Invest in dollar-denominated financial assets such as Treasury securities. Our proper reaction: "Thanks for trusting us to invest your money in our own growth and security; we’ll use a portion of the extra growth to pay you the 4.5% interest we promised. Feel free to continue buying T-bonds and notes with your dollars; that's money we would otherwise have to tax away from our own people, and it also helps hold down the interest rate we'll have to pay you."
4. Hoard the dollars. Our proper reaction: "Thanks for trusting in our currency more than yours, thereby making future inflation of our currency even less of a worry than it is now. In essence, this means the goods you sold us turned out to be absolutely free. Thank you very, very much."
5. Dump the dollars for another currency. Our proper reaction: "Your masochism is puzzling. Nonetheless, thanks for the goods you sold us before you caused the value of the dollar to drop a smidgen, inexplicably making it more difficult for us to continue buying goods from you."
mhesidence
Dismembered Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 10:51a
I'm not an economist, I don't play one on TV, and I haven't even stayed at a Holiday Inn; but I can spot a biased one-sided article when I read one.
So the question is what is the author's motivation behind the article? Just trying to produce and article before deadline? Always writes doom and gloom aritcles? Political agenda?
workindev
Ancient Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 10:56a
czarandy said: This seems to be often overlooked, but to the US financing spending through borrowing or through taxes has the same cost. That is, there is nothing inherently "good" about spending tax money and nothing inherently "bad" by spending borrowed money.I would argue that the opposite is true. Spending tax money is generally "bad", and spending borrowed money is generally "good".
Tax money is dollars that are taken out of the hands of the general public, reducing the ability of the general public to facilitate economic growth through spending their own money. That leaves it up to the government to spend this money as "efficiently" as possible, which history has shown isn't all that efficient. This also leaves Mr. and Mrs. Taxpayer unhappy because they have less money in their own pocket.
Borrowed money is dollars that people willingly lend to the government in exchange for an interest producing asset. Every dollar that is borrowed by the public sector is dollar asset in the private sector. The government still has to spend this money as "efficiently" as possible, but this money actually gets paid back to the private sector, with interest. The best part about it is that the economic growth that this exchange helps promote also helps the government to perpetually borrow this money and pay it off without any increased drain on the economy or the value of the currency. It is truly a win-win situation for both parties.
workindev
Ancient Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 11:00a
mhesidence said: I'm not an economist, I don't play one on TV, and I haven't even stayed at a Holiday Inn; but I can spot a biased one-sided article when I read one.
So the question is what is the author's motivation behind the article? Just trying to produce and article before deadline? Always writes doom and gloom aritcles? Political agenda?You can bet that any article that states the size of the debt in absolute dollars, with no reference to the size of the debt in relation to the economy (I.E. By mid-May 2007, the US National Debt stood at approximately at mind-boggling $8.85 trillion -- i.e. approximately $28,000 for every American.) is biased fear mongering.
Then again, an article that says "By mid-May 2007, the US National Debt stood at approximately 66.23% of GDP, or exactly where it has historically averaged for the last 150+ years", probably wouldn't sell as many papers.
TexAsh said: WalStMonky said: kamalktk said: Remember when the dollar "collapsed" versus the last "new dominant" currency? It was 94-95, and the dollar collapsed over a few months from 105 yen to 80 yen. The world collapsed and every American was forced to live in tent cities and refugee camps for a few years.
It was horrid, horrid I say. Some were forced to consume their young to stay alive, those of us who were more fortunate had to cook over greasy fires in 55 gallon drums...those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it!
So much for a serious discussion I can see the thread being hijacked... I made a serious and sarcastic reply. I was living in Singapore during 94-95 and was on the "winning" side of exchange rates as the Sing $ strengthened versus the US $. I also was living in South Korea duing the Asian financial crisis of 1997 when the won lost half it's value versus the dollar. So I've seen both sides firsthand. Despite much public gnashing of teeth by the media/politicians, life went on pretty much normally.
tooshy
Frivolous Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 11:57a
kamalktk said: TexAsh said: WalStMonky said: kamalktk said: Remember when the dollar "collapsed" versus the last "new dominant" currency? It was 94-95, and the dollar collapsed over a few months from 105 yen to 80 yen. The world collapsed and every American was forced to live in tent cities and refugee camps for a few years.
It was horrid, horrid I say. Some were forced to consume their young to stay alive, those of us who were more fortunate had to cook over greasy fires in 55 gallon drums...those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it!
So much for a serious discussion I can see the thread being hijacked... I made a serious and sarcastic reply. I was living in Singapore during 94-95 and was on the "winning" side of exchange rates as the Sing $ strengthened versus the US $. I also was living in South Korea duing the Asian financial crisis of 1997 when the won lost half it's value versus the dollar. So I've seen both sides firsthand. Despite much public gnashing of teeth by the media/politicians, life went on pretty much normally.Several things have changed since 94 and 97...I don't think US can control things as well as Greenspan orchestrated with the IMF. That's just my gut feeling. In 94 and 97 we were in our peak expansion years, where are we today? In 94 and 97 emerging markets were just that, today they are a threat to global inflation and our deficits.
Every shock was "cured" with a sudden boost of liquidity...sure the Feds might try that again. But what's changed is the inflation factor...it's here to stay. What a difference one short year makes. Today I think every one sees China as a self sustained economy, furthermore, we have yet to see what the government does with it's reserves (other than financing US consumption).
Just to refresh our memories, emerging markets were a source of cheap labor that ensured low cost imports (low inflation). Can we say that's still true? Sure there is another country down the road who we can tap for cheap labor, but the supply/demand balance has shifted and there are more rising hungry consumers than cheap producers.
I'm a bit worried (nah) how we are going to finance our profligate lifestyle. I suppose we can always take the backseat and get a haircut.
MisterMe
Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 12:21p
The difference now is that Bush and Congress has spent away our safety nets. We as a country are levereged to the hilt. In the nineties there were no other countries that could topple us economically now there is Europe and soon China and India. It's true China needs us to buy their goods but once their consumer base gets enough wealth they won't need us anymore to prop up their economy - then where will we be? Where will our growth come from? All we really own right now are the brand names - all the manufacturing is done in China. Already the Chinese are making their own brands of electronic equipment that are being made in the same factories as the world class American brands. What becomes of them when people find that they can buy the same exact product sans the brand name for 25% less. Anyone else notice the off brand HD tvs in BJs and Costco?
jayK
Senior Member - JayK
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 12:27p
MisterMe said: The difference now is that Bush and Congress has spent away our safety nets. We as a country are levereged to the hilt. In the nineties there were no other countries that could topple us economically now there is Europe and soon China and India. It's true China needs us to buy their goods but once their consumer base gets enough wealth they won't need us anymore to prop up their economy - then where will we be? Where will our growth come from? All we really own right now are the brand names - all the manufacturing is done in China. Already the Chinese are making their own brands of electronic equipment that are being made in the same factories as the world class American brands. What becomes of them when people find that they can buy the same exact product sans the brand name for 25% less. Anyone else notice the off brand HD tvs in BJs and Costco?Little-known fact: the US exported $1.024 trillion last year, making us the second largest exporter in the world.
Here is what we export: agricultural products (soybeans, fruit, corn) 9.2%, industrial supplies (organic chemicals) 26.8%, capital goods (transistors, aircraft, motor vehicle parts, computers, telecommunications equipment) 49.0%, consumer goods (automobiles, medicines) 15.0% (2003)
Here is a list of the top exporters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports 1 Germany 1,133,000 2006 est. 2 United States 1,024,000 2006 est. 3 China 974,000 2006 est. (Hong Kong 611,600) 4 Japan 590,300 2006 est. 5 France 490,000 2006 est. 6 United Kingdom 468,800 2006 est. 7 Italy 450,100 2006 est. 8 Netherlands 413,800 2006 est. 9 Canada 405,000 2006 est. 10 Belgium 335,300 2006 est.
WalStMonky
Happy Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 12:29p
Yep, it won't be long before the Japanese own the US.
LeggoMyEggo
Addicted Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 12:39p
China trading hard goods + human effort for a promise on paper = pwnd
anakinskywalker
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 12:44p
tooshy said: kamalktk said: TexAsh said: WalStMonky said: kamalktk said: Remember when the dollar "collapsed" versus the last "new dominant" currency? It was 94-95, and the dollar collapsed over a few months from 105 yen to 80 yen. The world collapsed and every American was forced to live in tent cities and refugee camps for a few years.
It was horrid, horrid I say. Some were forced to consume their young to stay alive, those of us who were more fortunate had to cook over greasy fires in 55 gallon drums...those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it!
So much for a serious discussion I can see the thread being hijacked... I made a serious and sarcastic reply. I was living in Singapore during 94-95 and was on the "winning" side of exchange rates as the Sing $ strengthened versus the US $. I also was living in South Korea duing the Asian financial crisis of 1997 when the won lost half it's value versus the dollar. So I've seen both sides firsthand. Despite much public gnashing of teeth by the media/politicians, life went on pretty much normally.Several things have changed since 94 and 97...I don't think US can control things as well as Greenspan orchestrated with the IMF. That's just my gut feeling. In 94 and 97 we were in our peak expansion years, where are we today? In 94 and 97 emerging markets were just that, today they are a threat to global inflation and our deficits.
Every shock was "cured" with a sudden boost of liquidity...sure the Feds might try that again. But what's changed is the inflation factor...it's here to stay. What a difference one short year makes. Today I think every one sees China as a self sustained economy, furthermore, we have yet to see what the government does with it's reserves (other than financing US consumption).
Just to refresh our memories, emerging markets were a source of cheap labor that ensured low cost imports (low inflation). Can we say that's still true? Sure there is another country down the road who we can tap for cheap labor, but the supply/demand balance has shifted and there are more rising hungry consumers than cheap producers.
I'm a bit worried (nah) how we are going to finance our profligate lifestyle. I suppose we can always take the backseat and get a haircut.
good points, though I wouldn't quite say that China is self-sustained. I think it's still heavily export-driven and domestic demand is low.
The article raises some points that have not been addressed by anybody: 1. Why are the M3 figures suddenly no longer being published? 2. South Korea and some other Asian economies have started slowing down growth in their dollar stockpiles and instead diversifying into Euros. How will this impact the USD's status as global reserve currency? How will it impact the US economy? 3. China, Saudi Arabia and other dollar-hoarding countries are starting to use those dollars to buy US companies, instead of simply investing in US Govt. securities like they used to do earlier. They are going from mostly-"loaner" to more-and-more-"owner". How will this impact the US economy going forward?
Those who have been vigorously tearing TexAsh to pieces for trying to promote serious discussion about an unpopular and uneasy subject are invited to kindly shed some light on this troubling question and explain it away in a satisfactory manner.
Those who have been pointing out that US Debt is historically at the same levels as percentage of US GDP should note that historically there was no serious competitor to the US Dollar for the position of international reserve currency. Now there is the Euro. Things have changed. So being Number 30 on the list of public debt may not be good enough going forward. The USD has to compete with the Euro to win the confidence of the international finance community. Things are changing; so just keeping in step with historical levels is no guarantor of success going forward. So, the argument that "things are as bad as they historically were, so we'll continue to remain fine" has no merit.
Dismissing unpopular items such as this out of hand without due consideration is not going to help us compete and win the challenges of the future.
tooshy said: Several things have changed since 94 and 97...I don't think US can control things as well as Greenspan orchestrated with the IMF. That's just my gut feeling. In 94 and 97 we were in our peak expansion years, where are we today? In 94 and 97 emerging markets were just that, today they are a threat to global inflation and our deficits.
Every shock was "cured" with a sudden boost of liquidity...sure the Feds might try that again. But what's changed is the inflation factor...it's here to stay. What a difference one short year makes. Today I think every one sees China as a self sustained economy, furthermore, we have yet to see what the government does with it's reserves (other than financing US consumption).
Just to refresh our memories, emerging markets were a source of cheap labor that ensured low cost imports (low inflation). Can we say that's still true? Sure there is another country down the road who we can tap for cheap labor, but the supply/demand balance has shifted and there are more rising hungry consumers than cheap producers.
I'm a bit worried (nah) how we are going to finance our profligate lifestyle. I suppose we can always take the backseat and get a haircut. You're just supporting my point. With the US being less dominant now than it was, whether the dollar catches cold or not matters less than ever before to the world economy. Remember, I was living in a country that saw it's currency fall by 50% vis a vis the dollar, when the dollar was the dominant currency and I was in an "emerging economy". Clearly my lifestyle should have been devastated by this, since I was being paid in the local currency? The net result on people was not large. Why? Because manufacturing increased rapidly, and most services are local. As jayK indicated, people are surprised by how much is made in America.
workindev
Ancient Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 12:52p
MisterMe said: The difference now is that Bush and Congress has spent away our safety nets.I'm sorry, but this is just gibberish. What safety net are you talking about? And how is our spending removing this safety net? That just doesn't make any sense. If anything, it is our investment in growth (i.e. spending) that is building a safety net, not removing it.We as a country are levereged to the hilt.Not any more than we have been averaging for a century and a half, and we are leveraged a lot less than a bunch of other industrialized countries (refer to the link earlier in this thread). In the nineties there were no other countries that could topple us economically now there is Europe and soon China and India.There weren't? Japan wasn't growing? Germany wasn't an economic powerhouse? Those are no different than the economic "threats" in China and India today.It's true China needs us to buy their goods but once their consumer base gets enough wealth they won't need us anymore to prop up their economy - then where will we be?We will be a in pretty good spot with the worlds largest economy being able to afford to buy more stuff from us, and from the rest of the global economy. A rising tide lifts all boats, you know.All we really own right now are the brand names - all the manufacturing is done in China. Already the Chinese are making their own brands of electronic equipment that are being made in the same factories as the world class American brands. What becomes of them when people find that they can buy the same exact product sans the brand name for 25% less. Anyone else notice the off brand HD tvs in BJs and Costco?You mean great "American" brands like Sony? Toshiba? Panasonic? Samsung? LG? JVC? Mitsubishi? Yamaha? Sharp? Oh wait....
anakinskywalker said: Those who have been vigorously tearing TexAsh to pieces for trying to promote serious discussion about an unpopular and uneasy subject are invited to kindly shed some light on this troubling question and explain it away in a satisfactory manner.It would be helpful if OP has provide something other than a cut and paste article which I found to be a lot of fluff that didn't provide support for its alarming conclusion.
Why do 2 parents have to work to support a family now - ?? and why is our standard of living dropping?? alternate cost of living article
OK, Many of you will just say - I am a fear munger or idiot - "sky is falling", I have studied economics every day for 3 years - I am seriously worried about USA future.
Romans ruled the world for 300-400 years and collapsed - partly through devaluation and lack of confidence in their currency.
America has become more a debt 'junkie' - - than ever before with total debt of $48 Trillion - - and the highest debt ratio in history.
That's $161,287 per man, woman and child - - or $645,148 per family of 4, $45,514 more debt per family than last year.
Last year total debt increased $3.9 Trillion, 5 times more than GDP. External debt owed foreign interests increased $1 Trillion; Household, business and financial sector debt soared 9%.
72% ($35 trillion) of total debt was created since 1990, a period primarily driven by debt instead of by productive activity.
And, the above does not include un-funded pensions and medical promises.
2 great questions: Can the production of debt forever replace the production of goods and savings? Can Americans forever borrow their way to prosperity? Easy Answer > NO WAY !!
ifyouhavetoask
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 1:00p
WalStMonky said: Yep, it won't be long before the Japanese own the US.
This is the same kind of logic that caused us to believe that we could occupy Iraq with 100,000 troops.
America, and the US dollar, are not invincible.
If we keep pushing it, we'll break it... like we did the military.
WalStMonky
Happy Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 1:02p
So it doesn't bother you that the Japanese were able to purchase Rockefeller Center, lock, stock and barrel?
anakinskywalker said: So being Number 30 on the list of public debt may not be good enough going forward. The USD has to compete with the Euro to win the confidence of the international finance community.
25 Germany 66.80 2006 est. 29 France 64.70 2006 est. 30 United States 64.70 2005 est.
Two of the 3 major Euro nations are worse off than the US.
6 Italy 107.80 2006 est. 7 Greece 104.60 2006 est. 10 Belgium 90.30 2006 est. 23 Portugal 67.40 2006 est.
Other large Euro nations worse off than us. Confidence inspiring?
ifyouhavetoask
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 1:08p
anakinskywalker said: Those who have been vigorously tearing TexAsh to pieces for trying to promote serious discussion about an unpopular and uneasy subject are invited to kindly shed some light on this troubling question and explain it away in a satisfactory manner. Anakin
Very few FW posters want to have a serious discussion about the US dollar's collapse. When it's brought up, the discussion is overwhelmed with "why do you hate America", and "you're a stupid doom and gloomer, or "the sky isn't falling, chicken little".
Anyone who is paying attention, knows that the stock market has fallen since 2003, once the dollar's decline is factored. Or that the housing market "bubble" was, in reality, a decline in prices, after the dollar's decline is factored. Yet, no one wants to know or see that. All they want to know is that they have more dollars now, than they did 5 years ago. Never mind that those dollars aren't worth as much.
It's like trying to explain inflation to Homer Simpson. He doesn't care, so it doesn't affect him.
jayK
Senior Member - JayK
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 1:10p
WalStMonky said: So it doesn't bother you that the Japanese were able to purchase Rockefeller Center, lock, stock and barrel?Not really. Why does it matter? It's a free market - if someone has enough money to buy, and the owner is willing to sell, who cares what country the buyer lives in?
ifyouhavetoask
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 1:10p
WalStMonky said: So it doesn't bother you that the Japanese were able to purchase Rockefeller Center, lock, stock and barrel?
No.
What bothers me is that more people in the USA know what Paris Hilton is doing at this exact moment, than what is happening to the M3.
jayK
Senior Member - JayK
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 1:15p
ifyouhavetoask said: What bothers me is that more people in the USA know what Paris Hilton is doing at this exact moment, than what is happening to the M3.Not to mention that most people would think of BMW when you mention M3.
Why do 2 parents have to work to support a family now - ?? and why is our standard of living dropping?? alternate cost of living article
OK, Many of you will just say - I am a fear munger or idiot - "sky is falling", I have studied economics every day for 3 years - I am seriously worried about USA future.
Romans ruled the world for 300-400 years and collapsed - partly through devaluation and lack of confidence in their currency.
America has become more a debt 'junkie' - - than ever before with total debt of $48 Trillion - - and the highest debt ratio in history.
That's $161,287 per man, woman and child - - or $645,148 per family of 4, $45,514 more debt per family than last year.
Last year total debt increased $3.9 Trillion, 5 times more than GDP. External debt owed foreign interests increased $1 Trillion; Household, business and financial sector debt soared 9%.
72% ($35 trillion) of total debt was created since 1990, a period primarily driven by debt instead of by productive activity.
And, the above does not include un-funded pensions and medical promises.
2 great questions: Can the production of debt forever replace the production of goods and savings? Can Americans forever borrow their way to prosperity? Easy Answer > NO WAY !!
It's quite simple. We need a budget that spends approximately 17% of our GDP. We spend more than we take in. I don't think the sky is falling. I do think it is time to become more restrained in our spending, and time to "fix" medicare and social security.
sweetbutter
Senior Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 1:16p
I do not understand why all the bashing on the Japanese corporations happen lately. Sure the US economy is not as "good" as 2 years ago, but is it all the Japanese faults? Please take alot at the trade deficit, Japan still rank third as US trade partner, or second, please look. When you are talking about the economy please use macro economic instead of personal finance, and your belove microeconomic. And beside it is a corporation, meaning the Japanese do not own all of their companies. There are alot of US investors who legally are the owners of these corporations as well. They are simply invest in what work, just the same as the consumer who purchase what is best for their dollars. This ignorant must stop! I think you guys are anti-Japanese. They were born Japanese, did they ask for it? is it their fault if their ancestor were ambitious? For example: Sony CEO is no longer Japanese, Toyota and Honda have to built plants in the US because they do not want to endure anti Japanese hatred, Japan government have to give tax incentives to US corporations so their products can be competitive in the Japanese market. The truth is, the Japanese spend alot of efforts and energy to develop great products and maintaince their credibility after WWII. The evidences after so call 30 years have paid off, globally, not only the US. This bashing on the Japanese effort in the free market is sort of a scape goat scheme. Why don't you blame China? or all of the US so called patriotic corporations who are shipping all of your jobs and equipments elsewhere. Yes, they just use your patriotic sense into buying continue crap designed products but no longer made in the USA. I'm not Japanese, but just tired of this misinformation.
workindev
Ancient Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 1:18p
anakinskywalker said: good points, though I wouldn't quite say that China is self-sustained. I think it's still heavily export-driven and domestic demand is low.
The article raises some points that have not been addressed by anybody: 1. Why are the M3 figures suddenly no longer being published?Because it was a meaningless number that took a lot of resources to publish. It isn't a mystery why they stopped publishing it - they said so in the Press Release: M3 does not appear to convey any additional information about economic activity that is not already embodied in M2 and has not played a role in the monetary policy process for many years. Consequently, the Board judged that the costs of collecting the underlying data and publishing M3 outweigh the benefits. 2. South Korea and some other Asian economies have started slowing down growth in their dollar stockpiles and instead diversifying into Euros. How will this impact the USD's status as global reserve currency? How will it impact the US economy?It won't. Asian economies depend on the value of the dollar. If it drops, it makes it harder for us (the worlds largest economy) to buy their stuff, and it devalues the stockpiles they already have. Any significant change in dollar accumulation policies would be akin to them tying their own noose and slipping it around their own neck. 3. China, Saudi Arabia and other dollar-hoarding countries are starting to use those dollars to buy US companies, instead of simply investing in US Govt. securities like they used to do earlier. They are going from mostly-"loaner" to more-and-more-"owner". How will this impact the US economy going forward?Not significantly. 1) Growth in these markets benefits our economy which sells to them. 2) Demand for US Government securities isn't going away anytime soon. 3) Even if demand for US Government securities does drop, we control the incentive to buy them (I.E. interest rates), so we can always increase demand.
Those who have been pointing out that US Debt is historically at the same levels as percentage of US GDP should note that historically there was no serious competitor to the US Dollar for the position of international reserve currency. Now there is the Euro. Things have changed. So being Number 30 on the list of public debt may not be good enough going forward. The USD has to compete with the Euro to win the confidence of the international finance community. Things are changing; so just keeping in step with historical levels is no guarantor of success going forward. So, the argument that "things are as bad as they historically were, so we'll continue to remain fine" has no merit.I disagree. Nations behind the Euro also hold debt levels similar to the US (some much greater).
And if you think I was saying "things are as bad as they historically were", you completely misinterpreted my comments. I believe things are as good as they always have been. I'm of the opinion that leveraging a growing asset is always a good thing. Dismissing unpopular items such as this out of hand without due consideration is not going to help us compete and win the challenges of the future.And the challenges of the future aren't going to be "won" by irrational and unwarranted fear-mongering.
ifyouhavetoask
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 1:21p
jayK said: ifyouhavetoask said: What bothers me is that more people in the USA know what Paris Hilton is doing at this exact moment, than what is happening to the M3.Not to mention that most people would think of BMW when you mention M3.
CONCLUSION There are 77 million baby boomers now ranging from age 41 to age 59. All are hoping to collect tens of thousands of dollars in pension and healthcare benefits from the next generation. These claimants aren’t going away. In three years, the oldest boomers will be eligible for early Social Security benefits. In six years, the boomer vanguard will start collecting Medicare. Our nation has done nothing to prepare for this onslaught of obligation. Instead, it has continued to focus on a completely meaningless fiscal metric—“the” federal deficit—censored and studiously ignored long-term fiscal analyses that are scientifically coherent, and dramatically expanded the benefit levels being explicitly or implicitly promised to the baby boomers. Countries can and do go bankrupt. The United States, with its $65.9 trillion fiscal gap, seems clearly headed down that path. The country needs to stop shooting itself in the foot. It needs to adopt generational accounting as its standard method of budgeting and fiscal analysis, and it needs to adopt fundamental tax, Social Security, and healthcare reforms that will redeem our children’s future..
DickWhitcomb
Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 1:24p
ifyouhavetoask said: jayK said: ifyouhavetoask said: What bothers me is that more people in the USA know what Paris Hilton is doing at this exact moment, than what is happening to the M3.Not to mention that most people would think of BMW when you mention M3.
I hope she got a blue one, so it goes with her eyes!
Shame on you for knowing her eyes are blue.
Skipping 45 Messages...
workindev
Ancient Member
posted: Jun. 11, 2007 @ 2:59p
anakinskywalker said: Three questions:
1. Do you always believe anything anybody says in a press release?Do you always believe everything you read in a chicken-little op ed? The article posted by the OP didn't bother trying to explain why it was significant that the M3 figures are no longer published - it simply stated that they were discontinued and then relied on the fact that most people have no freeking clue what the M3 figures are and would draw their own scary conclusions. It turns out that there are quite a few people who happen to know what they are talking about that published a couple of pretty good reasons why they were discontinued. Disagree? Explain how M3 figures had been playing a significant role in monetary policy, and how the M2 was insufficient. Simply pointing out the the M3 numbers aren't published is meaningless. 2. Is it irrational to draw attention to the fact that other economies are starting to lose faith in US Dollar? How long do you think the Dollar will remain international reserve currency if it consistently loses value?Is it irrational to point out that the economies in question have an enormous amount of vested interest in the value of the dollar, and are not going to shoot themselves in the foot by instigating the devaluing of their own investment? 3. Perhaps you are right that the Euro is in no better shape that the US in terms of deficits etc. But the Euro is not the only competition the USD has to face to remain reserve currency. If other economies lose faith in the USD's ability to retain its value, they might prefer to trade in gold. Like they used to do before the US got everybody else to put their trust in the US Dollar. Is it irrational to ask that that trust not be taken for granted?I highly doubt that any country would be stupid enough to trade in gold, essentially placing the trust of their future currency and economic growth into the hands of a handful of gold-producing countries. The one economic force that is more devastating than inflation is deflation, which would cause consumers to stop spending, producers to stop producing, and borrowers to stop borrowing. If you are in a currency-limited economy, that's exactly whats going to happen.
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