United First Financial - Looking for the truth

This simple do it yourself spreadsheet stuff has kept everyone not agreeing for over 30 pages now and everyone is correcting the other. A golf swing looks pretty simple when your not actually swinging the club until your standing with the club in your hand. Makes me glad we had a mathematical engineer from GE Aeronautics do our program so I know its right.

Fargo said: This simple do it yourself spreadsheet stuff has kept everyone not agreeing for over 30 pages now and everyone is correcting the other. A golf swing looks pretty simple when your not actually swinging the club until your standing with the club in your hand. Makes me glad we had a mathematical engineer from GE Aeronautics do our program so I know its right. you must not know that Tier 1 school educated engineers , working for the top companies are also the ones posting in this forum

galabar said: anthonyu said: ellory said:
But assuming your spreadsheet is correct, now offset the $1205.30 that you are ahead with the $3500 you paid fir the software and you are now behind by nearly $2300. ($2294.70)

If it times out, you can click on the click here to start the download.

Who said I was going to pay $3500? I've said so many times that I will never pay $3500. BUT...the software works and can be replicated without buying the software. That's how I came up with a spreadsheet to validate everything.

I think the question is, does the software save you more than paying the $3500 directly towards your mortgage and taking the simpler approach of just depositing your pay check into an interest baring checking account and paying extra money towards your mortgage payment?

And the answer is that when you factor in the $3500 for the software, you come out behind by going with this program as compared to simply prepaying your mortgage. (And assuming the opportunity cost of other uses of your money is less than your mortgage interest rate)

ellory said: galabar said: anthonyu said: ellory said:
But assuming your spreadsheet is correct, now offset the $1205.30 that you are ahead with the $3500 you paid fir the software and you are now behind by nearly $2300. ($2294.70)

If it times out, you can click on the click here to start the download.

Who said I was going to pay $3500? I've said so many times that I will never pay $3500. BUT...the software works and can be replicated without buying the software. That's how I came up with a spreadsheet to validate everything.

I think the question is, does the software save you more than paying the $3500 directly towards your mortgage and taking the simpler approach of just depositing your pay check into an interest baring checking account and paying extra money towards your mortgage payment?

And the answer is that when you factor in the $3500 for the software, you come out behind by going with this program as compared to simply prepaying your mortgage. (And assuming the opportunity cost of other uses of your money is less than your mortgage interest rate)

Ok, so the conclusion is that this software makes you work harder so that you can have less money. Where do I sign up?

ellory said: SUCKISSTAPLES said: Fargo said: This simple do it yourself spreadsheet stuff has kept everyone not agreeing for over 30 pages now and everyone is correcting the other. A golf swing looks pretty simple when your not actually swinging the club until your standing with the club in your hand. Makes me glad we had a mathematical engineer from GE Aeronautics do our program so I know its right. you must not know that Tier 1 school educated engineers , working for the top companies are also the ones posting in this forumAnd, speaking as a math major (MS OR&S), I wish they had used someone trained in finance to create the tool

...and speaking as a Computer Science major (Sc.B., M.S.), I wish they had shrink wrapped this piece of software for $29.99, which, in my opinion is about what it is worth.

--Galabar

anthonyu said: I'll be off to Cabo till the weekend so this will be my last post until then. But I'll be looking forward to all the posts when I come back. lol
See my response above for what you are missing in your comparison. Perhaps that will be after the weekend!!

Fargo said: This simple do it yourself spreadsheet stuff has kept everyone not agreeing for over 30 pages nowWrong. Your unwillingness to share numbers and your continuing effort to mislead and obfuscate has lead us to this point. Including reverse engineering the math behind the scam.

From post 1, the analysis was that the benefit was due primarily to prepayment, with a minuscule fraction due to HELOC float (interest rate dependent). The analysis just proves it with numbers that all the zealots did not want to disclose

Fargo said: galabar said: ellory said: SUCKISSTAPLES said: Fargo said: This simple do it yourself spreadsheet stuff has kept everyone not agreeing for over 30 pages now and everyone is correcting the other. A golf swing looks pretty simple when your not actually swinging the club until your standing with the club in your hand. Makes me glad we had a mathematical engineer from GE Aeronautics do our program so I know its right. you must not know that Tier 1 school educated engineers , working for the top companies are also the ones posting in this forumAnd, speaking as a math major (MS OR&S), I wish they had used someone trained in finance to create the tool

...and speaking as a Computer Science major (Sc.B., M.S.), I wish they had shrink wrapped this piece of software for $29.99, which, in my opinion is about what it is worth.

--Galabar

You guys would still be trying to get it for free.

Hey, if we coupled this with sound output that exhorted people with slogans like "Pay another $100 and be debt free 1 year sooner." we will have also captured the motivational effect that these adherents spout.

Ellroy...what the hell are you talking about?

uutxs said: You are putting up $200 more (11th month extra payment) in scenario 2 as compared to scenario 1. That is $200 more NOW in year 1. How much is that worth after 30 years because the difference of $1441.55 is over 30 years? Apples to oranges comparison.

Let us take your spreadsheet (I have not checked every detail but you sure have put some effort in constructing it). Let us make two changes to make an appples to apples comparison.

1. Change the 25% HELOC rate to 19.48% (B6). It is for this interest rate that $2000 borrowed in scenario 2 can be paid back in 11 monthly payments of $200 each. Use the spreadsheet: PV((19.48/12)%,11,-200))

2. Now in scenario 2, since you "pay back" the $2000 HELOC in 11 $200 payments, why not change (E3) to 11 and not 10 for a fair comparison.

Tell me what your spreadsheet says with these two changes.
uutxs said:
See my response above for what you are missing in your comparison. Perhaps that will be after the weekend!!

Ok, 1 more response since I was called out. If you look at the spreadsheet, the 11th payment was NOT made to the mortgage. The spreadsheet scenarios mentioned 10 payments from months 1 to 10 or 1 payment in month 1. As mentioned in my original threads, you can choose to pay principal + interest for 10 months, but if all you had was $200 per month, the HELOC interest of $236.25 has to be paid in the 11th month (or 12th too, if you really only had $200) to totally pay off the loan. If you read my post, I already subtracted that $236.25 interest to get the net gain. I had to mention that because in an earlier discussion, someone said that I still had to pay the interest in the 11th month, which is true.

anthonyu said: And for those who think that the spreadsheet is confusing or complicated, the calculation is actually simple. Most of the formula is for data validation and to simplify the user's data entry by centralizing data into a few blue font cells (so there's a lot of redirection and normalization).

Sample loan:
100K, 30 year fixed, 6% interest
Bankrate says monthly mortgage is: $599.55

For each month, all you need to do is get the balance from the previous month, add the interest that was incurred for that month, then subtract the mortgage payment.

Initial Loan: $100K
Month 1: $100K + (100K * 6%/12 months) - 599.55 = 100000 + 500 - 599.55 = 99,900.45
Month 2: 99,900.45 + (99,900.45 * 6%/12 months) - 599.55 = 99,900.45 + 499.50 - 599.55 = 99,800.40
Month 3: 99,800.40 + (99,800.40 * 6%/12 months) - 599.55 = 99,800.40 + 499.00 - 599.55 = 99,699.85

Since Excel has the autofill feature, you only have to do it once and extrapolate it until month 360. If you plugged in the correct monthly mortgage, your balance should be 0 at month 360.

If there was an extra payment, I just subtract that from the balance for that month. So if an extra 2K payment was made in month 2:
Month 2: 99,900.45 + (99,900.45 * 6%/12 months) - 599.55 = 99,900.45 + 499.50 - 599.55 = 99,800.40 - 2000 = 97,800.40
Month 3: 97,800.40 + (97,800.40 * 6%/12 months) - 599.55 = 97,800.40 + 489.00 - 599.55 = 97,689.85

Since the cells are in formulas, making the 2K payment in month 2 will automatically recalculate the rest of the months.

I'll be off to Cabo till the weekend so this will be my last post until then. But I'll be looking forward to all the posts when I come back. lol

Anthony....like I said, good job on the spreadsheet (seriously). And again, it's a nice Model T design. Trust me, it's a cluster***k when compared to the MMA software tool.

Like I've said. All you blow hards are now free to use it for free!!!! Good Luck!

anthonyu said: uutxs said: You are putting up $200 more (11th month extra payment) in scenario 2 as compared to scenario 1. That is $200 more NOW in year 1. How much is that worth after 30 years because the difference of $1441.55 is over 30 years? Apples to oranges comparison.

Let us take your spreadsheet (I have not checked every detail but you sure have put some effort in constructing it). Let us make two changes to make an appples to apples comparison.

1. Change the 25% HELOC rate to 19.48% (B6). It is for this interest rate that $2000 borrowed in scenario 2 can be paid back in 11 monthly payments of $200 each. Use the spreadsheet: PV((19.48/12)%,11,-200))

2. Now in scenario 2, since you "pay back" the $2000 HELOC in 11 $200 payments, why not change (E3) to 11 and not 10 for a fair comparison.

Tell me what your spreadsheet says with these two changes.
uutxs said:
See my response above for what you are missing in your comparison. Perhaps that will be after the weekend!!

Ok, 1 more response since I was called out. If you look at the spreadsheet, the 11th payment was NOT made to the mortgage. The spreadsheet scenarios mentioned 10 payments from months 1 to 10 or 1 payment in month 1. As mentioned in my original threads, you can choose to pay principal + interest for 10 months, but if all you had was $200 per month, the HELOC interest of $236.25 has to be paid in the 11th month (or 12th too, if you really only had $200) to totally pay off the loan. If you read my post, I already subtracted that $236.25 interest to get the net gain. I had to mention that because in an earlier discussion, someone said that I still had to pay the interest in the 11th month, which is true.
You subtract $236.25 in interest you pay in months 11, 12 from $1441.55 which is interest saved over 30 years!! That is what I call apples to oranges comparison. Why dont you pay me $236.25 today and I will pay you $1000 30 years from now. You make a cool $763.75 profit. How does that sound?

Why dont you take me up on what I said in my previous post. Apply the $200 (or $236.25 if you want to stick with 25% HELOC) to month 11 (or 11 and 12) in scenario 1. That makes the two scenarios absolutely same as far as payments go (amount and timing). Tell who comes out ahead in that case.

dsru said: Mike,

you said/implied that the results came back that you can payoff the 225k note in 11.25 years using the program and using no discretionary income.

With no discretionary income you have 135 months @ 1409/mo to allocate in anyway the software tells you. Do you really need a smartphone to figure out it isn't possible? (hint borrowing 190,215 from a heloc at 0% from day 1 won't get you there)
When they say "using no discretionary income" I guess they mean the same discretionary income put in would be available at the end of the mortgage term. Because the discretionary income is anyway sitting in a checking a/c earning 0%. What a cool concept

Anthonyu, I have minimal experience with spreadsheets, and none with excel nomenclature. Explain the $12,000 in scenario I and II: cash present from grandma, or discretionary income for 12 months of $1000 a month ? How could scenario II have HELOC debt ?

Please explain in English cell F6 = 659.89, a HELOC amount in scenario II. I tried to copy the cell's expression, but was unable. Perhaps because you locked it ? I'm looking at the table in NeoOffice, a java clone of Excel.

And for a start at looking at the table's logic, explain where the HYS interest accrued during year #2 has been applied to the mortgage. The correct way would be to start including it from month #13, but I'll even accept the lump sum showing up during month #25.

anthonyu said: Wrong again. I told you to read the threads so you understand. Read previous post.you can say wrong again, but he's absolutely 100% correct. I will make an offer to you that is based PURELY on the premise that I am wrong and you are right. If you are right, you will make out like a bandit. Give me $500, and I will give you a signed, secure contract, that in 30 years, I will give you $750. That will earn you TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS!!!!!!!!! It really won't. Well, you think it will, but that's all that matters.

anthony, telling someone to read incorrect information does NOT inform them. I can see how you are confused, but you very much are confused. but here's an easy way any reader can debunk your spreadsheet. compare the first month that the $200 extra/month table stops paying the $200/month. They have a principal balance of 17796.11, while the MMA'er has 17630.11. At this point in time, the MMA'er still owes $236.11 in HELOC interest, WHICH THEY ACTUALLY HAVE TO PAY. But what's this, they are only $166.66 ahead in the loan. If the $200/month guy then applies $236 to his mortgage this month, which is apples to apples, cause the idiot MMA'er has to pay $236 as well at this same point, low and behold, BAM! the MMA'er is now ~$70 behind. You, sir, are incorrect. So, the real question is, did you get scammed, or are you here as part of the scam. I'm beginning to doubt your integrity.

EricGo07 said: mikef07 said: EricGo07 said: mikef07 said: EricGo07 said: I have tested my spreadsheets with bankrate's calculator. I will personally give you $3500 if you find something wrong with it. Cool. I'll let you make 35 monthly payments to the WWF, because I'd feel bad taking your money. To be honest, my discretionary income is about double mikey's, and likely triple in 2008.

So, point me to 'thread 2'.

You take home $4000 and your discretionary income is double $5,000 and will be triple in 2008. Great math you have done there.Ah yes, I wondered if you would pop up.

This is the internet, and who knows what is true ? My earlier 'data' for Fargo that you so enjoy repeating was meant to simplify this UFF question and to mirror a more typical salary of someone who might consider the scam. Believe what you want. However, if you are feeling confident, I have an offer for you to consider:

Each of us will place $100k in trust with SiS, and I will provide him any financial reports he requests to verify my discretionary income statement. SiS keeps $5k, and the 'winner' takes the rest. I will have to add a clarification that I included deferred tax savings into my discretionary income.

Looking forward to hearing from you, bozo

And now liar man comes out. Good try. You're a loser. There are so many people who lie about making much less. Yeah, I trust SIS. You forgot to add all future fairy dust and lottery winnings as well.

BTW smart guy, since you admit you are a liar we will now not trust anything you say for any reason. Thanks for proving that nothing you say is true. Gotta love a guy who tricks himself into looking like an idiot.I'm not sure what you are whining about, bozo.

Being played for a fool by my data scenario to Fargo ? Even a simpleton should have realized that a structure of $0 debt AND $0 savings is contrived. That is why I included it. If you were not so dense, you would realize that non-mortgage debt does not play a part in this thread's discussion.

Posting income *less* than actual ? You think everybody acts like you bozo ? If you are so sure, I've given you a way to prove it, and make $95,000 in about a week.

Using SiS as the attorney ? I'm sure we can find somebody mutually satisfactory.

I don't really know if you are a clown making a meagre salary, or a clown doing a bit better. But bozo you are without a doubt.

You're a self professed liar. No one believes anything you say and we will disregard everything from you. Move along.

Venturion said: Fargo said: Makes me glad we had a mathematical engineer from GE Aeronautics do our program so I know its right. Just out of curiosity (and potential naivete) what's a "mathematical engineer?"It posted months earlier by another shill that the magic program was done by a NASA guru and we shouldn't be questioning it.

ROLMFAO.

EricGo07 said: The use of 'we' is hilarious
Probably referring to the multitude of voices in his head

calvinandhobbes said: anthony, IMO, is a schill for the scam. he's provided a quasi-amortization schedule for the loan scenarios (and locked it so you can't correct it). he left out the actual payments (convenient, eh?) and, more importantly, he didn't amortize the HELOC, which is the key to the scam. He puts the correct interest paid in a cell at the top, but if you actually account for it (in payments), then the smoke and mirrors go away and you see that your costs have increased, not decreased (why, because the HELOC rate is higher). As I said in a previous post, if you account for the heloc interest as an "additional payment" to the non-MMA loan at the time you would owe the HELOC interest in the MMA loan (apples to apples), the MMA then falls behind. The scam is comparing the HELOC interest paid in year 1 versus the savings in year 20 something. Actually applying the interest paid to the loan at the end of year one translates to a bigger savings in year 20 something.

should scammers really be able to keep their accounts here? i will say it's fun debunking and busting them.I'll politely disagree. I think Anthony is a bright guy trying his best, but for the moment his self-assurance has outpaced his acumen. I tell my kids repeatedly to estimate an answer to their math question in their heads by reasoning in order to check the number their calculators have spit out, and it is doubly true for people that use spreadsheets, because it is easy to get lost in the table's logic.

Anyway, as a simple demonstration that his table is not working as intended, I in turn inflated the HYS account rate, and then the HELOC rate. Simple logic tells us that a higher HYS rate should decrease the total interest burden for the scenario II person using it, while increasing the interest burden for the scenario I person taking money from the HELOC when that rate is increased. Neither table (columns J or K) changed at all-- at least in the cells I checked after these accounts came into play from year #2.

addendum: typo corrected, clarity improved.

mikef07 said: jayK said: mikef07 said: One thing I would love to see and have not yet.

If this thing is so bad why have we not seen one person yet wwho has bought it and had negative things to say about it. This is surprising to me. It is very rare that somehting that is a "scam" would have no egative reviews from actual purchasers. Every single thing I have read about it comes from people speculating. I really want to see some negative aspects from some buyers of the program.Simple. The only people who buy the software are those who aren't financially savvy, and thus aren't aware that they could get similar results without the software. People who are financially savvy and know enough to realize what the software does would never pay for it.

Then there are people who are financially savvy, realize that the software can be used to take advantage of those with less knowledge, and use that to their advantage.

That's your reason? Come on. In this whole world we have never seen a negative review by a user and you think it is becaue people who buy it are financially savvy. If this thing were as bad as you guys claim there would be tons of people ready to rip it.Please read more carefully next time. I've bolded the relevant sentence above to aid in your reading comprehension.

And I'm also surprised no one has exposed this software as a scam...by now, I would expect to see an active thread on a finance board with 600+ replies tearing it apart.