United First Financial - Looking for the truth

synnyster said: confuseu said: synnyster said: How does paying $3500 for software that just tells you when to pay make you more disciplined? How does it even make it easier if you can set up a monthly payment through your billpay to automatically do that? I don't get why confuseu is so adamant about this "tool" being so useful.

Simple. It's more than a "bill" pay. It's a bill pay (not automated), it's a register, it's a financial predictor/calculator...it's really quite useful.

What are you predicting and calculating? Mike already showed that he could put X more dollars into his mortgage payment each month and it will shorten his repayment period by a third and save more money in interest on top of not having to pay $3500. Isn't the whole point of the software to save you money and shorten your payment period? I don't get where all this predictor/calculator stuff is needed. What happened to your discipline reason? How does this software teach you discipline? If someone telling you you need to pay more to shorten your mortgage and you don't listen to them, how does a $3500 piece of software do any better?

Not even worth responding to.

confuseu said: synnyster said: How does paying $3500 for software that just tells you when to pay make you more disciplined? How does it even make it easier if you can set up a monthly payment through your billpay to automatically do that? I don't get why confuseu is so adamant about this "tool" being so useful.

Simple. It's more than a "bill" pay. It's a bill pay (not automated), it's a register, it's a financial predictor/calculator...it's really quite useful.
Hmmm, wonder if you market the product as such.

ellory said: Interesting market pitch: We do less than Quicken - but with discipline! (Just trust us)
You forgot "for only $3450 more!"

EricGo07 said: Ellory PM'd me that he is satisfied with his thread summary, so I am going to ask the mods to lock this thread so that the shills do not have the last posts. Whomever feels the same, please PM the mods.

I knew it all along, you are afraid. You have proved nothing with your calculations and scenarios and you rush to lock the thread when you all agree in your bias non comparing collusion and you say HURRY quick! LOCK IT! now that we look like we won!

Go ahead lock it so what, who cares there is enough information in this thread to prove you all wrong and it is clear to see how you have dodge what the program is doing, I have brought it up more than once and every time it as been dodged.

Besides as I gone over this thread I see it is a real joke, it has no real objective evaluation in it at all except for what I have posted.

Bye.

E101 said: who cares there is enough information in this thread to prove you all wrong and it is clear to see how you have dodge what the program is doing, I have brought it up more than once and every time it as been dodged.

Besides as I gone over this thread I see it is a real joke, it has no real objective evaluation in it at all except for what I have posted.

Bye.
no real objective evaluation?
mikef07 used numbers provided by a UFF rep for results from the MMA software, and would lose 10k versus doing it himself. Once again, he loses 10k by using the UFF software, using the UFF rep's own numbers for how he would do under it.

Should this thread really get locked? If it gets locked, it'll slip out of the collective consciousness, and can't be brought back to the main page.

If it stays unlocked, it can be bumped every 60 days or so (or whenever a brand new member makes their first post to it "You are ALL FOOLS!!!!")

E101 said: Go ahead lock it so what, who cares there is enough information in this thread to prove you all wrong and it is clear to see how you have dodge what the program is doing, I have brought it up more than once and every time it as been dodged.for a guy that claims over and over he doesn't really know what's going on in the software, you sure are quick to claim the program is proven, even though the only solid proof presented is against you.

psychtobe said: dweick said: Systems like the one OP mentions are overpriced and marketed in misleading ways.

The system "works" as follows:

1) A home equity line of credit is established (these used to carry interest rates LOWER than your home loan, now they are substantially higher)
2) Income is paid into your HELOC and if the HELOC has a surplus that surplus is paid towards your home mortgage.
3) Expenses (paid via checks typically) are paid with a loan from your HELOC

The excess of your income over your expenses results in additional paydown of your mortgage. If you have a spell of more expenses than income you end up paying interest on your HELOC at a rate that is going to be much higher than your home loan.

If you consistently spend more than you make you not only won't pay off your home early you'll watch your debt load grow.

If you consistently spend less than you make you will see your mortgage balance decrease.

For that you pay $3500, I'll give you a simple, free version. Direct deposit your paycheck to a savings account that earns interest, make your mortgage payments as late as you can without incurring a late fee (typically the 15th of the months instead of the 1st) spend less and make an additional payment towards the principle as close to the end of the month with your excess savings. An even better approach is to leave your low interest fixed rate mortgage alone and simply toss some money into an investment account every month, preferably one that isn't invested in individual stocks that someone pitched you on some message board.

There is a reason these "systems" are sold at seminars, they need a smooth talking salesman to separate you from $3500 for something that is better suited for a $19.95 paperback book.

The majority of people who foolishly fork over $3500 for these systems aren't going to stick with it much longer than they stuck with their health club membership. Their excitement will wane about as quickly as their enthusism over the overpriced timeshare they bought. The reason their excitement will wane is because people who blow $3500 on systems like this aren't good at spending less than they make.

wasn't everything that needed to be said about this topic said in this post... on the second page... of a now 50 page thread?

Where has this guy been the whole time?....this dude has no clue. He's heard of it, figured it out without knowing how it works completely (like everyone else here)....and like everyone else, he has never seen it, used it, knows the functions of the software and why 98% of the 400 test group 3 years later ARE STILL using the program and...again...are 20-25% ahead of predictions...
PLEASE FIND SOMEONE WHO HAS THE SOFTWARE AND TRY IT BEFORE YOU SPEAK!!!

Juicy stuff bhudge. Especially the commission structure for MMA sales personnel.

Yes this powerpoint clearly lays out the MLM commision structure

Per the powerpoing

Of the $3,500.00 fee

$2,250.00 is paid out in commission

$250.00 additional is paid out in bonus pools
__________
$2,500.00 total pay out

And

Once an agent does:
25 cumulative group sale
They are promoted to a Branch mgr.
(10 cumulative personal sales)

70% of $2,250 = $1,575 per sale

To maintain Marketing Bonus eligibility, you must personally make 1 sale, or personally recruit 2 new Associates in a rolling 90 day period.

No wonder the guys in the picture are smiling

bhudge said: I Googled "UFF MMA" and it looks like the site United First Financial MMA Program lays out publicly everything you would ever want to know about how the "business" works- directly from the mothership. Good stuff . . .
great first post!
edit: someone might want to mirror those docs before they disappear from teh intarweb.

confuseu said: Where has this guy been the whole time?....this dude has no clue. He's heard of it, figured it out without knowing how it works completely (like everyone else here)....and like everyone else, he has never seen it, used it, knows the functions of the software and why 98% of the 400 test group 3 years later ARE STILL using the program and...again...are 20-25% ahead of predictions...
PLEASE FIND SOMEONE WHO HAS THE SOFTWARE AND TRY IT BEFORE YOU SPEAK!!!I've never had a catheter inserted, and I don't know exactly how it's done, but I know I don't ever really want to have one. I've seen the literature, I've heard the explanations, I know this isn't for anyone who can balance a checkbook and understand interest rates (which, unfortunately seems to becoming fewer each year).

and I have no doubt that people could be ahead of predictions. the software doesn't account for raises. since you are dropping all your disposable income (without changing your cash flow, as they claim????? whatever), you could easily get ahead of predictions with yearly raises. You could also be even further ahead telling UFF to shove their software where the sun doesn't shine and just simply write 1 extra mortgage check a month.

How's that spreadsheet comparison going? Figured out $1 today is not $1 30 years later?

talljay said: Is there anyone reading this thread that is still considering buying this?there are definetly still people here still trying to sell this.

Do not open this in explorer. Open it native in PowerPoint so you can see the notes that the company recommends using. Its scripted so smoothly...

ellory said: And this powerpoint lays out a clear deceptive pitch example

Wow. I’m just trying to get caught up with all the posts and it looks like there’s a lot of interesting things out there.

My pee goes higher than yours.
I’m making $225K while I’m pee’ing.
My pee has an Engineering degree.
I found out that you pee’d in another forum, while playing Xbox and copying DVDs.
My pee can make spreadsheets. (This would probably be me.)
I don’t know exactly how pee’ing works but I paid $3500 to do it and it will save me $100K in interest.
And…someone else made $2500 in commission just to tell you how to pee.

Forgive me if it’s like re-hashing old news, but I’ll respond to those who have asked for a response while I was gone. And I have one other thing to add regarding the supposed value of the “$3500” software when I’m done.

confuseu said: Hey dips***t, the MMA most certainly does account for changes in income, raises, increase debts and the such throughout the duration of using the program. The purpose of the MMA is to show how using the HELOC can advance the payoff of your existing debt/mortgage, and provide a user friendly tool to monitor, make adjustments and such that UFF knows will happen in life. It provides real time analysis, 90 day forcast, TRUE/REAL costs of adding debt to your HELOC and much more.still can't read? i said the projections don't account for it, sure the software does, it has you dumping all your $$$ to your mortgage, so it will change with raises, layoffs, bonuses, whatever. Well, down the road, if you have more money, so you'll beat the projections. Nice try though. You dig yourself deeper with every post.

Yeah, i read through the notes of the powerpoint. They even point out the tax fraud savings you can get, though they leave out the part about it being fraud.

uutxs said: You subtract $236.25 in interest you pay in months 11, 12 from $1441.55 which is interest saved over 30 years!! That is what I call apples to oranges comparison. Why dont you pay me $236.25 today and I will pay you $1000 30 years from now. You make a cool $763.75 profit. How does that sound?

Why dont you take me up on what I said in my previous post. Apply the $200 (or $236.25 if you want to stick with 25% HELOC) to month 11 (or 11 and 12) in scenario 1. That makes the two scenarios absolutely same as far as payments go (amount and timing). Tell who comes out ahead in that case.

You’re getting close since you’re already thinking in terms of interest over the life of the loan. Since you want to go full-circle and want to re-invest the HELOC interest into the mortgage, let’s take a look at that scenario and find out how much interest you would incur IF you followed/simulated the MMA concept.


Since we did not talk about specific salaries and bills, I’ll refer to this thread to find out how much HELOC interest would be incurred with the salary deposit component vs. how much interest would be without it. Just to recap that thread:

Monthly income = $4K
Monthly bills = $3K
Disposable income = $1K

A simplistic approach would be to prepay your mortgage $1K every month. But in order to leverage "float" in your HELOC, the software would most likely suggest an amount that is a factor of your disposable income and close to your monthly income. For example, it would ask you to pre-pay $3K. Here's how it would go, assuming you get paid monthly for easier simulation.

For simpler calculation, we will make the following assumptions: Each month has 30 days, 360 days in a year. You make a 3K pre-pay on your mortgage on the 1st day of the 1st month. Your salary is deposited on the 1st of each month. All bills are paid on the 16th of the month. I’m splitting this right down the middle so that while you may say that bills can be paid earlier than the 16th, I can also say that some bills might be paid after the 16th and closer to the 30th. 15 days of float due to the salary deposit, 15 days of full interest after all the bills are paid.

I will also make the assumption that if your HELOC is negative balance (the salary you deposited was greater than current balance), interest will be 0 (i.e., they don’t pay you back interest like it’s a savings account, and they don’t use it to reduce your interest on the days you have a balance).

Interest rate is still 25%, according to your example.

Using Bankrate's auto loan calculator (I cannot find a HELOC calculator), interest for those 3 months is: $125.86.

Month 1: Day 1, you took out a 3K HELOC, deposited 4K salary. Balance = -1000
Month 1: Day 16, you paid 3K bills. Balance = 2000
Month 2 Day 1, you deposited 4K salary. Balance = -2000
Month 2: Day 16, you paid 3K bills. Balance = 1000
Month 3 Day 1, you deposited 4K salary. Balance = -3000
Month 3: Day 16, you paid 3K bills. Balance = 0. HELOC paid off.

Interest Calculation:
Month 1 (1 to 15): HELOC Balance = -1000. Interest = 0
Month 1 (16 to 30): HELOC Balance = 2000. Interest = 2000 * (25% * (15/360)) = 20.83
Month 2 (1 to 15): HELOC Balance = -2000. Interest = 0
Month 2 (16 to 30): HELOC Balance = 1000. Interest = 1000 * (25% * (15/360)) = 10.42
Month 3 (1 to 15): HELOC Balance = -3000. Interest = 0
Month 3 (16 to 30): HELOC Balance = 0. Interest = 0
Total Interest = $31.25
31.25 / 125.86 = 24.83%. You only pay 24.83% of your supposed HELOC interest by doing the salary deposit.

What if the interest rate is 30%?

Bankrate Interest: 151.23

Month 1 (1 to 15): HELOC Balance = -1000. Interest = 0
Month 1 (16 to 30): HELOC Balance = 2000. Interest = 2000 * (30% * (15/360)) = 25.00
Month 2 (1 to 15): HELOC Balance = -2000. Interest = 0
Month 2 (16 to 30): HELOC Balance = 1000. Interest = 1000 * (30% * (15/360)) = 12.50
Month 3 (1 to 15): HELOC Balance = -3000. Interest = 0
Month 3 (16 to 30): HELOC Balance = 0. Interest = 0
Total Interest = $37.50
37.50 / 151.23 = 24.80% of HELOC interest paid.

What if the interest rate is 50%???

Bankrate Interest: 253.40

Month 1 (1 to 15): HELOC Balance = -1000. Interest = 0
Month 1 (16 to 30): HELOC Balance = 2000. Interest = 2000 * (50% * (15/360)) = 41.67
Month 2 (1 to 15): HELOC Balance = -2000. Interest = 0
Month 2 (16 to 30): HELOC Balance = 1000. Interest = 1000 * (50% * (15/360)) = 20.83
Month 3 (1 to 15): HELOC Balance = -3000. Interest = 0
Month 3 (16 to 30): HELOC Balance = 0. Interest = 0
Total Interest = $62.50
62.50 / 253.40 = 24.67% of HELOC interest paid.

OMG, what do we see here??? Even if we double your interest rate to 50%, you’ll only be paying $62.50 interest with the salary deposit, which is still roughly half of what you expect to pay on a regular HELOC at 25% ($125.86) if you did not do the salary deposit.

That’s why they say interest rate is not as important, I just doubled your sample interest from 25% to 50% and by optimizing your ADB (average daily balance), you will accrue only half of the expected interest at 25%. And you complain that your HELOC has a 10% interest?

So go ahead and re-invest 25% of $236.25 = 59.06, or for the heck of it put in 50% of $236.25 = 118.12, into month 11 and find out who will save more. In the spreadsheet, you will have to go to the “Multiple Payments” tab, enter Months 1 to 10, $200. Then on the next line, enter Months 11 to 11, $59.06 or $118.12. Click on Calculate and find out which gets paid sooner.

I did not want to go into this kind of detail since I have not seen any MMA agent post the same explanation, lest I give them more ammo, but here it is. For MMA salespeople, that’s how you break it down the next time someone asks you, so don’t just say “the software told me so”. Like I said before, there’s no magic in the software, it’s just math. Anyone can simulate what it does.

calvinandhobbes said: anthony, you REALLY need to fess up to your spreadsheet error if you don't want to be looked at as part of the scammers. the comparison of year 2007 dollars to year ~2030 dollars is a glaring mistake. Don't apply more equivalent up front cash to one mortgage and not the other one you are comparing to, unless you are intentionally trying to mislead people.

I just posted a response to your original question. Read it while I respond to the other threads in order.

Here's an example of the type of person selling this thing. I was writing back and forth with Jaime Buckley (referenced on page 21 of this thread) and was telling him that the Mortgage Professor didn't think very much of this UFF deal. He countered by sending me the link to this guy's site, and told me this guy had way more credibility than the Mortgage Professor. <cough>

http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=MMA_skeptics&refpage=issues

mikef07 said: One thing I was told Anthony from the MMA guy is that your HELOC will never be negative. Your -1000 balance does not happen according to them.

Mike, in that example, it only becomes negative because I made the salary 1 lump sum and the bill payments in 1 lump sum for easier calculation. That's why I said that even if it is negative, interest will be 0 so that there is no undue advantage at it being negative. In reality, you could have multiple salary deposits and multiple bills overlapping throughout a month, and the software is "supposed to optimize that" so that you're always close to 0 balance. I don't know how the software does that, or if it does.