1. If you want to get rid of your mortgage sooner, prepay it yourself 2. If you need a budget / financial tool, use something like Quicken or MS Money for 2% of the price ($70) 3. If you need motivation and discipline, get someone to help you with that ($3400 buys a lot of counseling) 4. MMA / UFF is very expensive. Its sales force is highly motivated to get you to buy an inferior product to get their $2500 commission per sale (refernced off their own MLM website).
anthonyu said: I did not respond nor make any changes to the "comments of at least 3 people" because I was on vacation. I even said that in my post the night before I left. If I was in town and immediately told you how you can correct that and plug in your scenario in the same spreadsheet, would that make you feel better?anthony, a big part of the point is that you keep saying there isn't a problem, WE didn't input the #'s right. NO. NO. NO. You said my 25% "doomsday" scenario would work actually. YOU used your spreadsheet to try to prove me wrong. YOU didn't put the numbers in right. You concluded incorrectly MMA worked. Stop saying it was/is OUR problem. The problem was YOURS and YOURS alone.
ellory said: None of this changes the bottom line.
1. If you want to get rid of your mortgage sooner, prepay it yourself 2. If you need a budget / financial tool, use something like Quicken or MS Money for 2% of the price ($70) 3. If you need motivation and discipline, get someone to help you with that ($3400 buys a lot of counseling) 4. MMA / UFF is very expensive. Its sales force is highly motivated to get you to buy an inferior product to get their $2500 commission per sale (refernced off their own MLM website).
confuseu said: ellory said: None of this changes the bottom line.
1. If you want to get rid of your mortgage sooner, prepay it yourself 2. If you need a budget / financial tool, use something like Quicken or MS Money for 2% of the price ($70) 3. If you need motivation and discipline, get someone to help you with that ($3400 buys a lot of counseling) 4. MMA / UFF is very expensive. Its sales force is highly motivated to get you to buy an inferior product to get their $2500 commission per sale (refernced off their own MLM website).
Inferior product to what other product?Compared to Quicken + pay down your mortgage. The powerpoint slick sales pitch cleverly starts off by touting the value of paying down your mortgage quickly. But in the end only compares "Do Nothing" vs MMA. A legitimate comparison would incorporate, with the same inputs
1) Do nothing - no budget, spend what you wish, pay your mortgage per schedule 2) Traditional prepay mortgage + Quicken for budget and discipline 3) UFF / MMA magical money merge accout + onone software + coaching
Run the numbers: Report the results
#2 wins. Every time. UFF/MMA lose, Every time. And the amount it loses by is deterministic. Everytime. Its $3500 + interest costs of $3500 + interest costs on balance in HEL
longwood8 said: calvinandhobbes said: mikef07 said: my e-penis is bigger than yours. Deal with it.it's funny to hear you rant.
Actually, its is probably smaller, that is WHY he rants.
OMG that was so funny. You should be a comedian. We should start a thread that you can put how to earn money by being a comedian. I love it. I will back you. I will be your guy in the audience that laughs at everything you say. I get your joke. it is smaller you wrote. That is what makes it funny. He rants because it is probably smaller. That is hilarious. If you wrote it was bigger it wouldn't be as funny. It is lik eyou put it into a spreadheet and it weighed both options and the answer from the imaginary numbers outputed that if you wrote it is probably smaller then it would be funnier. Dude with your logic and spreadsheet you will be rich and very successful.
confuseu - we're still waiting for a fact based response
ellory said: There you go - again, Changing the subject.
We did a fact based analysis on how the MMA scheme costs you more money than a simple do it yourself approach. And it was based on the speaker notes of UFFs powerpoint material that is used at UFF brainwashing semianres. And your answer is something about commissions.
Want to respond on point? Or respond with misdirection?
confuseu said: ellory said: EricGo07 said: confuseu said:The float is intrest free...he just Won't understand...it's the timing. I'm guessing you won't believe me if I sayLet’s review this. We started with a balance of $3500. We end with a balance of $2500. But we never actually made a scheduled payment to the line of credit. Our $5000 block of income represented the monthly payment. Now, we will be charged interest on the $2500, and let’s say that’s at a rate of 10 percent. The finance charge would be $20.83 on that $2500 balance.Will you believe the UFF seminar ppt notes I copied it off of ?
Note: That is $20.83 per month, or - surprise - $250 per year (10% of $2500). So there is an interest of $250 per year, from the MMA approach, which says it is better to pay HELOC interest and "make that float work for me" and paydown my mortgage earlier.
If my mortgage is at 6%, I have avoided paying 6% * $2500 = $150 / year or $12.50 per month.
MMA costs more by $8.33 per month or $100 / year, plus out of pocket $3500 up front purchase ($2500 of which is paid as MLM commissions)
ellory said: confuseu said: ellory said: None of this changes the bottom line.
1. If you want to get rid of your mortgage sooner, prepay it yourself 2. If you need a budget / financial tool, use something like Quicken or MS Money for 2% of the price ($70) 3. If you need motivation and discipline, get someone to help you with that ($3400 buys a lot of counseling) 4. MMA / UFF is very expensive. Its sales force is highly motivated to get you to buy an inferior product to get their $2500 commission per sale (refernced off their own MLM website).
Inferior product to what other product?Compared to Quicken + pay down your mortgage. The powerpoint slick sales pitch cleverly starts off by touting the value of paying down your mortgage quickly. But in the end only compares "Do Nothing" vs MMA. A legitimate comparison would incorporate, with the same inputs
1) Do nothing - no budget, spend what you wish, pay your mortgage per schedule 2) Traditional prepay mortgage + Quicken for budget and discipline 3) UFF / MMA magical money merge accout + onone software + coaching
Run the numbers: Report the results
#2 wins. Every time. UFF/MMA lose, Every time. And the amount it loses by is deterministic. Everytime. Its $3500 + interest costs of $3500 + interest costs on balance in HEL
Well, before page one of this thread (where the individual was asking if anyone had heard of the MMA)....and not many if any had....comparing the MMA to what 90% of the American public was/is doing is quite a service I would say. Get over it. It works. My neighbor has Quicken...it's not as good as the MMA, sorry to break it to you. You all know it all. And as I've said a billion times, use Quicken/excel or what ever you want to pay your mortgage and debt and go for it (which of course you won't because you just want to sound "right"). First the MMA didn't work...it's a scam..WRONG. Then you didn't like the cost...Scam...Too Bad..don't pay it..next it's commission was structured like real estate or insurance or a car dealership..my God..someone gets paid to show someone how to save tens of thousands of $ on their mortgage...scam..(of course, that was before any of you jerks thought...hey, this is a good idea...I can do it for free!)..it becomes HUGE in the marketplace...surpassing MAP, MR. Gill (read up on this guy) in less than 6 months...it's all over the place, and people who use it LOVE IT!!!!! And now the "authorities" have spoken on FWF....again, it works, it's nicer than Quicken/excel (more options) it provides lifetime customer service (I tried to call Quicken for help with some questions..about my finances and rates etc....that didn't work) and I can use it on as many properties as I want...$3500.00 it's worth it.
When you use the MMA software, and then compare it to all of the others you push (that are just like the MMA), but haven't actually used as well...you will have some credibility. Until then, you have proved absolutely nothing other than (as has been stated over and over) an individual can do this process on their own, and achieve similar results..
ellory said: confuseu - we're still waiting for a fact based response
ellory said: There you go - again, Changing the subject.
We did a fact based analysis on how the MMA scheme costs you more money than a simple do it yourself approach. And it was based on the speaker notes of UFFs powerpoint material that is used at UFF brainwashing semianres. And your answer is something about commissions.
Want to respond on point? Or respond with misdirection?
confuseu said: ellory said: EricGo07 said: confuseu said:The float is intrest free...he just Won't understand...it's the timing. I'm guessing you won't believe me if I sayLet’s review this. We started with a balance of $3500. We end with a balance of $2500. But we never actually made a scheduled payment to the line of credit. Our $5000 block of income represented the monthly payment. Now, we will be charged interest on the $2500, and let’s say that’s at a rate of 10 percent. The finance charge would be $20.83 on that $2500 balance.Will you believe the UFF seminar ppt notes I copied it off of ?
Note: That is $20.83 per month, or - surprise - $250 per year (10% of $2500). So there is an interest of $250 per year, from the MMA approach, which says it is better to pay HELOC interest and "make that float work for me" and paydown my mortgage earlier.
If my mortgage is at 6%, I have avoided paying 6% * $2500 = $150 / year or $12.50 per month.
MMA costs more by $8.33 per month or $100 / year, plus out of pocket $3500 up front purchase ($2500 of which is paid as MLM commissions)
babble babble babble
ok, who says my balance is $2500.00 per month each month for the year on the HELOC? That is your problem...the numbers have not yet nor will probably ever be the same. Is there interest on the HELOC? Dah? Is it cheaper to pay the HELOC % and pay down my mortgage principle to avoid future payments of much higher interest and speed up my equity and payoff date...Yes. Can I move money to different accounts on the exact same day..thus saving more interest on both the HELOC and my primary? Yes. Can I use my cc to make all my payments each month to save even more on interest in the HELOC and then right one check to cover that payment before interest hits it....YES...Do I have the "liquid" cash (as apparently everyone here does) to make the "double" payments (as you call them) each month...so I could have saved the $3500.00 and do it for free?! NO...and the "extra" payments are not every month anyways..shows how much you know (again).
You've been trying to disguise the results by focusing on the original content of my spreadsheet before I went on vacation, even when I've already told you how to enter your scenario into that same spreadsheet so you can see the results for yourself.
To prove or disprove the question, I've also been asking YOU to put in what YOU think is a realistic MMA interest incurred using YOUR scenario in YOUR spreadsheet. Instead, you come up with different explanations and payment scenarios, when all I asked all day long was for you to put in 1 amount in B13 of your existing spreadsheet. What's so hard about that? Didn't like the results?
Instead of doing that, you come up with a new spreadsheet that simulates the scenario and shows that you are up by $4 after 3 months...BUT ONLY AFTER adding $12+ in interest from a 5% savings account. Nowhere in the original discussion (see below) was investing the money mentioned. Because if it was, then there's no use pre-paying your mortgage (regardless of with a HELOC or not) as the optimal way is to just invest everything. I know it's hard to believe, and it may come as a surprise to you and everybody else, but your spreadsheet showed that you saved $8 after 3 months even on a higher interest HELOC. That's it. I'm done. It cannot be any clearer than that.
calvinandhobbes said: no, i'm not crazy. I didn't say what you just said. I'm saying, and EVERYONE ELSE HAS BEEN SAYING, that $4000 @ 9.25% on a HELOC pays more interest than $4000 on a fixed mortgage at 6.5%. Screw the total balance on the mortgage. IT DOESN'T MATTER. It's like having 2 credit cards. Regardless of the balance on either card (assuming they both have a balance) it is cheaper to pay off the card with the higher interest rate faster than the lower rate. The spin you, and I do mean YOU, crooks are doing is comparing the dollar amount of 6.5% interest on $200k versus 9% interest on $4k. That's apples to oranges. If I apply $4k to my mortgage balance of $150k, i still pay 6.5% on the $4k, and the remaining $146k. If i have to pay 9.25% on $4k, and 6.5% on the remaining $146k, I just paid more money in sum total. You, sir, are the idiot. SPIN WHEEL, SPIN!!!!!
calvinandhobbes said: anthonyu said: I did not respond nor make any changes to the "comments of at least 3 people" because I was on vacation. I even said that in my post the night before I left. If I was in town and immediately told you how you can correct that and plug in your scenario in the same spreadsheet, would that make you feel better?anthony, a big part of the point is that you keep saying there isn't a problem, WE didn't input the #'s right. NO. NO. NO. You said my 25% "doomsday" scenario would work actually. YOU used your spreadsheet to try to prove me wrong. YOU didn't put the numbers in right. You concluded incorrectly MMA worked. Stop saying it was/is OUR problem. The problem was YOURS and YOURS alone.
Your misdirection and changing the subject gets old. confuseu said: [
No fair!
1. Don't use examples off the United First Financial Forum website. I don't know how o respond to them 2. Only allow me to compare against a Do Nothing Scenario not against mortgage prepayment plans people can do themselves 3. You are not allowing me to change the subject. I need to do that so people or people will see through the scam of me trying to get them to buy something by misrepresenting the math 4. Hey, you are not allowed to say that math has absolutes. I am supposed to be able to get away with saying "every time is different"
Still the bottom line is the same
None of this changes the bottom line.
1. If you want to get rid of your mortgage sooner, prepay it yourself 2. If you need a budget / financial tool, use something like Quicken or MS Money for 2% of the price ($70) 3. If you need motivation and discipline, get someone to help you with that ($3400 buys a lot of counseling) 4. At $3500 MMA / UFF is very expensive. Its sales force is highly motivated to get you to buy an inferior product to get their $2500 commission per sale (refernced off their own MLM website). And it is expensive in three ways a) The initial $3500 cost b) The roll over of the $3500 into your mortgage, causing you to pay interest on $3500 over the entire lifetime of your mortgage c) The subpar performance you get by borrowing interest at a higher rate (HELOC) to reduce a loan at a lower rate (mortgage)
And you have the gall to misrepresent the math by comparing the monthly interest on the HELOC incurred vs lifetime interest reduced on the mortgage
Try comparing the following instead
1) The lifetime interest on the HELOC MMA recommends vs lifetime interest saved on mortgage. 2) MMA plan vs simple prepay
In both cases, MMA comes out behind, By the numbers stated above. I don't need to know all the inputs. (That's called "algebra". It uses "variables" 2
anthonyu said: EricGo07 said: anthonyu said: Not really: Scenario 1: Got 12K HELOC. There was no gift from anyone. Scenario 2: Pay off 1K per month using disposable income. If you want to, you can add the "actual HELOC interest" as another payment in month 13.ok, I follow.
I think the way this should be set up is to pay off S#1 HELOC at a rate of $1000 a month. And I know what you are talking about. My intent was to create a generic spreadsheet that one can put different scenarios to generate an amortization schedule the way Bankrate would do it. This would be to end hypothetical scenarios in this thread since you can plug in your number and any prepayment and it will give you your status. Since I wouldn't know what scenario one would put in, I had to rely on standard Excel functions to calculate any projected interest. So the way the interest data is presented may not be as intuitive to someone who is looking for a complete solution (e.g. put interest back into the loan). The options would be to create a reusable spreadsheet or a customized spreadsheet with re-payments on a particular scenario. I decided to create a generic one.C+H posted earlier what I disagree with here, but I am going to summarize it:
If we let the $12k HELOC be paid off in S#1 in one month, then that money should be available to S#2 as well *at the same time*. Saying both scenarios gain the same amount of extra money isn't enough, if the money is available at different times.
If the S#1 HELOC is paid off according to the schedule that S#2 is receiving extra funds ($1000/month * 12 months), that makes sense. But at the end of 12 months and $12,000 payments into the HELOC of S#2, a balance remains (of about $570). This balance must now be taken into account, and most importantly must compound for the remainder of the loan.
Hope this is a bit clearer; and thanks, its been fun.
anthonyu said: You've been trying to disguise the results by focusing on the original content of my spreadsheet before I went on vacation, even when I've already told you how to enter your scenario into that same spreadsheet so you can see the results for yourself.for the zillionth time, it wasn't me who put the #'s in wrong, it was you.To prove or disprove the question, I've also been asking YOU to put in what YOU think is a realistic MMA interest incurred using YOUR scenario in YOUR spreadsheet. Instead, you come up with different explanations and payment scenarios, when all I asked all day long was for you to put in 1 amount in B13 of your existing spreadsheet. What's so hard about that? Didn't like the results?i like the results just fine, shows exactly what i've been saying, you lose money. Instead of doing that, you come up with a new spreadsheet that simulates the scenario and shows that you are up by $4 after 3 months...BUT ONLY AFTER adding $12+ in interest from a 5% savings account. Nowhere in the original discussion (see below) was investing the money mentioned.????? Man, you make me laugh. Investing? Who's investing? Putting money into a completely liquid savings account is investing? No, it's everyday banking. Because if it was, then there's no use pre-paying your mortgage (regardless of with a HELOC or not) as the optimal way is to just invest everything.again, actually no. The interest rate of 5% (a good # for your average account) is L-O-W-E-R than the mortgage rate of 6.5% (another reasonable average 30 rate). Or do you play some reverse MMA to get more out of your savings account? I know it's hard to believe, and it may come as a surprise to you and everybody else, but your spreadsheet showed that you saved $8 after 3 months even on a higher interest HELOC. That's it. I'm done. It cannot be any clearer than that.ok, so ...IF you don't get savings interest and IF your bills are due early or in the middle of the month, you can save a few bucks. That first IF is completely unreasonable though. And if the person is dumb enough not to get any interest on their savings when they have that much discresionary income, they will most likely NOT have positioned their bills to increase the float. My non CC bills are all due in the last 5 days of the month because I can't control that.anthonyu said: You said my 25% "doomsday" scenario would work actually. YOU used your spreadsheet to try to prove me wrong. YOU didn't put the numbers in right. You concluded incorrectly MMA worked. Stop saying it was/is OUR problem. The problem was YOURS and YOURS alone.this mistake of yours, unfortunately, doesn't change. When the HELOC rate-Mortgage rate gets big, your float game is gone. Not that it was really there to begin with.
ok, who says my balance is $2500.00 per month each month for the year on the HELOC?
Well, actually, that's the example the scripted Powerpoint marketing pitch uses,right on the UFF website
off topic misdirection statements deleted
shows how much you know (again). And shows how well you read the scripted powerpoint marketing material for the product you are hyping
Satisfied?Yes. Actually feeling quite smug
the power point presentation is one of many I will have you know. It's to present how the program works. I'm not changing the topic...you are calling out exacts which are not true ($2500 HELOC balance for life)...and it DOES NOT IMPLY ANYWHERE IN THE PRESENTATION THAT THIS WOULD BE THE HELOC BALANCE EACH MONTH! I'm glad your satisfied. You have not proven in this forum AT ALL that the MMA does not do what it claims. As I pointed out (and you can certainly find in the "marketing presentation") that most Americans DON'T have the "extra" cash laying around to make the "extra" payment. If you can (like everyone here) go for it! Yes, it works. Dah?! Use Quicken/excel AND DO IT YOURSELF....DON'T CLAIM THE MMA DOES NOT WORK BECAUSE IT DOES! If you don't like the cost don't pay it
ok, who says my balance is $2500.00 per month each month for the year on the HELOC?
Well, actually, that's the example the scripted Powerpoint marketing pitch uses,right on the UFF website
off topic misdirection statements deleted
shows how much you know (again). And shows how well you read the scripted powerpoint marketing material for the product you are hyping
Satisfied?Yes. Actually feeling quite smug
the power point presentation is one of many I will have you know. It's to present how the program works. I'm not changing the topic...you are calling out exacts which are not true ($2500 HELOC balance for life)...and it DOES NOT IMPLY ANYWHERE IN THE PRESENTATION THAT THIS WOULD BE THE HELOC BALANCE EACH MONTH! I'm glad your satisfied. You have not proven in this forum AT ALL that the MMA does not do what it claims. As I pointed out (and you can certainly find in the "marketing presentation") that most Americans DON'T have the "extra" cash laying around to make the "extra" payment. If you can (like everyone here) go for it! Yes, it works. Dah?! Use Quicken/excel AND DO IT YOURSELF....DON'T CLAIM THE MMA DOES NOT WORK BECAUSE IT DOES! If you don't like the cost don't pay it
This is my question confuseu. If you have 0$ extra income how can you possibly pay your mortgage off earlier? If I make $4000/month and I have a mortgage of $2000 and I have expenses such as food and utilities of $2000 it would seem impossible to pay off your mortgage in 11.2 years or in less than 30 years.
mikef07 said: This is my question confuseu. If you have 0$ extra income how can you possibly pay your mortgage off earlier? If I make $4000/month and I have a mortgage of $2000 and I have expenses such as food and utilities of $2000 it would seem impossible to pay off your mortgage in 11.2 years or in less than 30 years. Don't be surprised when confuseu completely ignores this.
Hey confuseu, please call me an idiot. I'm feeling a little down today and need a pick me up.
Confuseu, I already know the answer. The reason they want to know your income, debt, and discretionary income amounts is so they can figure out the best possible scenario for you using the MMA software and the thing that matters most is discretionary income. In fact, I was told as that (discretionary income) goes up, your time to pay off your mortgage goes down, and in fact 22% of the people are ahead of schedule because they had more discretionary income coming in than they thought.
mikef07 said: Confuseu, I already know the answer. The reason they want to know your income, debt, and discretionary income amounts is so they can figure out the best possible scenario for you using the MMA software and the thing that matters most is discretionary income. In fact, I was told as that (discretionary income) goes up, your time to pay off your mortgage goes down, and in fact 22% of the people are ahead of schedule because they had more discretionary income coming in than they thought.
discretionary income does play a role in the software. When has it been stated that it does not? Most people also have more than a mortgage for debt. Another factor that no one has brought up is consolidation. Are you going to argue consolidation would not affect ones outcome? Each individual's situation is different. Please check UFF FAQ's regarding...."will the MMA work for everyone?"...the answer is NO. It has NEVER been claimed it works for EVERYONE. The software is a TOOL...also specified in marketing material and presentation. The tool is called the customers "financial dashboard"...it tells you where you are, where your going, what happens if you would like to change your information...what would the REAL COST actually be...how it would affect your payments/interest etc. You have claimed you have the income to do it your self automatically. Great. Do it. Most Americans are not in that position. What the MMA has done is bring the ability to get your financial matters in order, consolidate debt and take better control of your money. It is VERY, VERY far from even being close to a scam? My God, they are trying to help people...AVERAGE people. Listen, to all.....why don't you go after Jenny Craig, Weight Watchers, Slim Fast etc.....this is ALL FREE KNOWLEDGE as well, and more Americans know how to fix their weight problem than anything else in this world....EAT BETTER - EXERCISE MORE!...Yet they spend BILLIONS on having someone tell them to do just that!
The MMA works. Period. Don't pay the $3500.00 if you don't want to.
Maybe what the UFF shills/presentations are banking upon are the converts signing up more converts...with the commission structure, if a convert recruits other hapless folks, technically their claim that there's no change to current lifestyle could be true. Could the magical program perhaps takes into account a certain income stream from commissions, apply that to the principal and voila, a mortgage paid off that much faster with no big change to current lifestyle.
But a MLM company couldn't possibly be THAT slimey, could it???
confuseu said: mikef07 said: Confuseu, I already know the answer. The reason they want to know your income, debt, and discretionary income amounts is so they can figure out the best possible scenario for you using the MMA software and the thing that matters most is discretionary income. In fact, I was told as that (discretionary income) goes up, your time to pay off your mortgage goes down, and in fact 22% of the people are ahead of schedule because they had more discretionary income coming in than they thought.
discretionary income does play a role in the software. When has it been stated that it does not? Most people also have more than a mortgage for debt. Another factor that no one has brought up is consolidation. Are you going to argue consolidation would not affect ones outcome? Each individual's situation is different. Please check UFF FAQ's regarding...."will the MMA work for everyone?"...the answer is NO. It has NEVER been claimed it works for EVERYONE. The software is a TOOL...also specified in marketing material and presentation. The tool is called the customers "financial dashboard"...it tells you where you are, where your going, what happens if you would like to change your information...what would the REAL COST actually be...how it would affect your payments/interest etc. You have claimed you have the income to do it your self automatically. Great. Do it. Most Americans are not in that position. What the MMA has done is bring the ability to get your financial matters in order, consolidate debt and take better control of your money. It is VERY, VERY far from even being close to a scam? My God, they are trying to help people...AVERAGE people. Listen, to all.....why don't you go after Jenny Craig, Weight Watchers, Slim Fast etc.....this is ALL FREE KNOWLEDGE as well, and more Americans know how to fix their weight problem than anything else in this world....EAT BETTER - EXERCISE MORE!...Yet they spend BILLIONS on having someone tell them to do just that!
The MMA works. Period. Don't pay the $3500.00 if you don't want to.
Does it work? Yes it does. It will help you pay your house off earlier.
Does it cost a price? Yes it does.
Is that price too much? For some yes, for others no.
Can you do it more for cheaper? Yes, but as you said there are many things in life you can do cheaper by yourself
Are you applying discretionary income towards your mortgage? In the MMA case you are and in the do it yourself case you are.
Are the sales tactics of marketing of the product misleading? Again to some yes, to others no. You bought it knowing exactly what it entailed and were OK with the price and the product. I can live with that.
Would 100% of people paid off their mortgage earlier by doing it themself? Of course not
Could 100% of people pay off their mortgage by doing it themself? Of course they could (But might not)
LisaS said: Maybe what the UFF shills/presentations are banking upon are the converts signing up more converts...with the commission structure, if a convert recruits other hapless folks, technically their claim that there's no change to current lifestyle could be true. Could the magical program perhaps takes into account a certain income stream from commissions, apply that to the principal and voila, a mortgage paid off that much faster with no big change to current lifestyle.
But a MLM company couldn't possibly be THAT slimey, could it???
OMG!!!!!!! PLEASE.. Please Google...MLM...get the definition. Verify that with UFF. It is not an MLM.
Your a little late to the "dance"...and right now your standing alone in the middle of the dance floor with your pants down and the band on break.
confuseu said: <blub>...Do it. Most Americans are not in that position. What the MMA has done is bring the ability to get your financial matters in order, consolidate debt and take better control of your money. It is VERY, VERY far from even being close to a scam? <blub>
The MMA works. Period. Don't pay the $3500.00 if you don't want to.Why are you still holding on to this last string after all the proof that the MMA does nothing for people who don't have extra income. Not to mention for people who can't manage money this provide a temptation to dig a big hole.
mikef07 said: confuseu said: mikef07 said: Confuseu, I already know the answer. The reason they want to know your income, debt, and discretionary income amounts is so they can figure out the best possible scenario for you using the MMA software and the thing that matters most is discretionary income. In fact, I was told as that (discretionary income) goes up, your time to pay off your mortgage goes down, and in fact 22% of the people are ahead of schedule because they had more discretionary income coming in than they thought.
discretionary income does play a role in the software. When has it been stated that it does not? Most people also have more than a mortgage for debt. Another factor that no one has brought up is consolidation. Are you going to argue consolidation would not affect ones outcome? Each individual's situation is different. Please check UFF FAQ's regarding...."will the MMA work for everyone?"...the answer is NO. It has NEVER been claimed it works for EVERYONE. The software is a TOOL...also specified in marketing material and presentation. The tool is called the customers "financial dashboard"...it tells you where you are, where your going, what happens if you would like to change your information...what would the REAL COST actually be...how it would affect your payments/interest etc. You have claimed you have the income to do it your self automatically. Great. Do it. Most Americans are not in that position. What the MMA has done is bring the ability to get your financial matters in order, consolidate debt and take better control of your money. It is VERY, VERY far from even being close to a scam? My God, they are trying to help people...AVERAGE people. Listen, to all.....why don't you go after Jenny Craig, Weight Watchers, Slim Fast etc.....this is ALL FREE KNOWLEDGE as well, and more Americans know how to fix their weight problem than anything else in this world....EAT BETTER - EXERCISE MORE!...Yet they spend BILLIONS on having someone tell them to do just that!
The MMA works. Period. Don't pay the $3500.00 if you don't want to.
Does it work? Yes it does. It will help you pay your house off earlier.
Does it cost a price? Yes it does.
Is that price too much? For some yes, for others no.
Can you do it more for cheaper? Yes, but as you said there are many things in life you can do cheaper by yourself
Are you applying discretionary income towards your mortgage? In the MMA case you are and in the do it yourself case you are.
Are the sales tactics of marketing of the product misleading? Again to some yes, to others no. You bought it knowing exactly what it entailed and were OK with the price and the product. I can live with that.
Would 100% of people paid off their mortgage earlier by doing it themself? Of course not
Could 100% of people pay off their mortgage by doing it themself? Of course they could (But might not)
Agreed. In a perfect world...one where everyone had plenty of money to make the "double" payment you can afford every month toward the mortgage...they wouldn't need a HELOC to do it with either(again, they have $)...and there would be no need for 99% of the mortgage products on the market. That is not reality. Reality is...there is a place for the MMA...it is not an MLM SCAM...and it is NOT for everyone.
confuseu said: Agreed. In a perfect world...one where everyone had plenty of money to make the "double" payment you can afford every month toward the mortgage...they wouldn't need a HELOC to do it with either(again, they have $)...and there would be no need for 99% of the mortgage products on the market. That is not reality. Reality is...there is a place for the MMA...it is not an MLM SCAM...and it is NOT for everyone. Again, how does MMA help somebody who does not have any "extra" income pay off their mortgage faster?
dosun said: confuseu said: Agreed. In a perfect world...one where everyone had plenty of money to make the "double" payment you can afford every month toward the mortgage...they wouldn't need a HELOC to do it with either(again, they have $)...and there would be no need for 99% of the mortgage products on the market. That is not reality. Reality is...there is a place for the MMA...it is not an MLM SCAM...and it is NOT for everyone. Again, how does MMA help somebody who does not have any "extra" income pay off their mortgage faster?
This is where the argument has been very circular. One the one hand we're hearing, "Duh of course you have to have the money to make extra payments" and on the other hand we're hearing, "Well this software is for the "average Joe" who doesn't have the extra money to pay toward his mortgage." Of course depending on the post, this is supposed to be a program that helps people learn to budget and come up with the extra money to pay off their mortgage faster. Yet other posts state (and the MLM *ahem* I mean MMA sales states) that this allows someone to pay off their mortgage faster without any change in their lifestyle.
demingy said: dosun said: confuseu said: Agreed. In a perfect world...one where everyone had plenty of money to make the "double" payment you can afford every month toward the mortgage...they wouldn't need a HELOC to do it with either(again, they have $)...and there would be no need for 99% of the mortgage products on the market. That is not reality. Reality is...there is a place for the MMA...it is not an MLM SCAM...and it is NOT for everyone. Again, how does MMA help somebody who does not have any "extra" income pay off their mortgage faster?
This is where the argument has been very circular. One the one hand we're hearing, "Duh of course you have to have the money to make extra payments" and on the other hand we're hearing, "Well this software is for the "average Joe" who doesn't have the extra money to pay toward his mortgage." Of course depending on the post, this is supposed to be a program that helps people learn to budget and come up with the extra money to pay off their mortgage faster. Yet other posts state (and the MLM *ahem* I mean MMA sales states) that this allows someone to pay off their mortgage faster without any change in their lifestyle.
What is happening here...and YOU ALL KNOW IT....is we are splitting hairs. Discretionary vs. "extra". YOU won't let it go. I have said dozens of times, you could go buy a car for CASH...for the AVERAGE PERSON that is a DIRECT change in your immediate financial lifestyle. If you buy the car with a "loan" it doesn't really change or AFFECT your lifestyle to the same degree. And you know this...unless of course YOU CAN AFFORD TO DO IT WITH CASH BECAUSE YOU ARE WEALTHY OR HAVE SPENT A GREAT DEAL OF TIME SAVING FOR THIS TRANSACTION. If that is the case CONGRATULATIONS!!!! You also constantly fail to equate the "consolidation" option of the program. Give it a rest. The MMA works, again, get over it.
OMG!!!!!!! PLEASE.. Please Google...MLM...get the definition. Verify that with UFF. It is not an MLM.
Your a little late to the "dance"...and right now your standing alone in the middle of the dance floor with your pants down and the band on break.
Could your little insult mean I hit it on the head? That the magical software counts on the 6% of sales of everyone recruited and the income potential of the sales to the masses? Again that would make the pitch technically correct...pay down your mortgage with no need for discretionary income...b/c you'll be making THOUSANDS from recruiting other people to drink the Kool Aid.
How is this not an MLM scheme? Hmmm, you make money off of your recruits' sales, you move up in line with a certain number of sales? What definition are you relying upon? I've seen definitions of MLM as being as simple as any business where payouts occur at two or more levels. Perhaps I cannot read when my pants are down, but I thought that the UFF presentation materials showed that you could get paid on two levels or more on your downline.
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, you can deny all you want it's a duck, but the fact remains to the rational person, it's still a duck.
One thing confuseu is an expert on is sowing confusion. Again, the bottom line is this program is all false claims, hype, misdirection, and obfuscation.
They won't talk facts, because laying out the facts make it clear there is no value. And that their claims are false. (That they savings are due to the magic MMA)
They won't talk numbers, claiming that every situation is different, yet in the next breath so that they have mathematical engineers with PhDs. That make it all work.
Complex stuff like algebra and variables
Then we get the fabulous comparison of the cost of one month of HELOC interest (at a higher rate) vs lifetime savings on a traditional 30 mortgage. Flawed logic? No. Intentional deception, yes.
Not to mention the MLM pyramid structure that, every time they bilk a mark out of $3500, drops $2500 into their greasy palms.
ellory said: None of this changes the bottom line.
1. If you want to get rid of your mortgage sooner, prepay it yourself 2. If you need a budget / financial tool, use something like Quicken or MS Money for 2% of the price ($70) 3. If you need motivation and discipline, get someone to help you with that ($3400 buys a lot of counseling) 4. MMA / UFF is very expensive. Its sales force is highly motivated to separate you from $3500 so that they get their $2500 commission (pyramid spread) per sale (referenced off their own MLM website).
I have LOTS of discretionary income. A name like "Confuseu" suggests to me that you have no desire to actually clarify anything. This "system" is stupid. If you pay 3,000 for it, you are a sucker and no doubt vested in defending it. If you charge $3,000 for it you are a predator. HELOC rates are higher than Mortgage rates. If you don't want a mortgage, pay it off with your cash, not by borrowing money at a higher rate to do so. Its simple. And, for God's sake, if you have $3,000 to buy a stupid program that is going to tell you to borrow at a higher rate to pay off a note with a lower rate, take the money and pay off the note with the lower rate without going further into debt. You'll be better off.
What is happening here...and YOU ALL KNOW IT....is I am changing the subject again by talking about buying a car. Prepaying a mortgage can save interest. The Money Merge Account approach line my pockets. The MMA does that very well, again, get over it.
[a]United First Financial makes its money through the sale of its software program used in conjunction with the MMA. Critics of UFF argue you do not need to spend $3,500 to pay down your mortgage using a software program, rather you can replicate the system yourself at no cost by setting up your own Home Equity Line of Credit (HELOC).
While there may be some merit to this argument, these critics do not take into account the cost of your time spent continually pouring over spread sheets and punching numbers in a calculator to come remotely close to the results that can be realized by using UFF's easy to manage software program.
Oh, so now the benefits are its better than a calculator and hours of time? To come remotely close? When our analysis showed that a straightforward, easy to implement prepayment schedule is actually easier and beats UFF?
And then their is the "we're better than Quicken arguement"Birkner adds that this program is also excellent for families needing to better manage their finances in general, since many homeowners do not truly understand the effects of consumer interest and debt. "Thanks to UFF's software program, you now know the results of your financial decisions as well as their real effects right away. You can start making better decisions because you can see everything instantly online. Making sound financial decisions to utilize your cashflow to reduce your debts without altering your lifestyle becomes a life-changing experience."
confuseu said: I have said dozens of times, you could go buy a car for CASH...for the AVERAGE PERSON that is a DIRECT change in your immediate financial lifestyle. If you buy the car with a "loan" it doesn't really change or AFFECT your lifestyle to the same degree. And you know this.
That must be a new gem. Are you saying MMA is a way of leveraging?
confuseu said: What is happening here...and YOU ALL KNOW IT....is we are splitting hairs. Discretionary vs. "extra". YOU won't let it go. I have said dozens of times, you could go buy a car for CASH...for the AVERAGE PERSON that is a DIRECT change in your immediate financial lifestyle. If you buy the car with a "loan" it doesn't really change or AFFECT your lifestyle to the same degree. And you know this...unless of course YOU CAN AFFORD TO DO IT WITH CASH BECAUSE YOU ARE WEALTHY OR HAVE SPENT A GREAT DEAL OF TIME SAVING FOR THIS TRANSACTION. If that is the case CONGRATULATIONS!!!! You also constantly fail to equate the "consolidation" option of the program. Give it a rest. The MMA works, again, get over it. You are the only one splitting hairs between discretionary and "extra". To most of us discretionary income = extra income. If you buy a car with cash, you pay it now, if you buy a car using a loan, you pay later. YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY EITHER WAY.
Since this program is primarily marketed toward American's with mortgages "help them pay off their mortgage faster". To do that you need to pay into the principle. So at some point during your life, you will have to pay that amount out of your pocket. Since according to you, most American's don't have the "extra" money, how does the MMA program help? For the average JOE with no extra income, can he pay off his 30 year mortgage in 1/3 of the time?
By the way MLM is a term that describes a business model. Just like franchise describes McDonald's business model. Whether you agree with it or not, the MMA program is sold using a MLM business model.
confuseu said: I have said dozens of times, you could go buy a car for CASH...for the AVERAGE PERSON that is a DIRECT change in your immediate financial lifestyle. If you buy the car with a "loan" it doesn't really change or AFFECT your lifestyle to the same degree. And you know this...unless of course YOU CAN AFFORD TO DO IT WITH CASH BECAUSE YOU ARE WEALTHY OR HAVE SPENT A GREAT DEAL OF TIME SAVING FOR THIS TRANSACTION. If that is the case CONGRATULATIONS!!!! You also constantly fail to equate the "consolidation" option of the program. Give it a rest. The MMA works, again, get over it.
This is actually a great example, because by the terms you use in the MLM pitch, if I buy the car with my "idle cash" (your words form the MLM pitch), you are saying it DOES affect my lifestyle, but if I take out a loan, it doesn't
Yet, by analogy, you make the exact reverse pitch with the MLM scam, that applying "idle cash" to you mortgage DOES NOT affect your lifestyle.
JayK is right, there are two camps
1. Those that see the numbers clearly that MMA / MLM is oversold hype 2. The scammers and those that are still scammed
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