demingy said:talljay said:Is there anyone reading this thread that is still considering buying this?

I'm not sure if E101 is still reading, but unfortunately for him/her they already bought it. And if you read the "money back guarantee" it seems unlikely that s/he is getting any money back.

Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed... I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.

From "Tommy Boy"

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I love that movie.

anthonyu said:mikef07 said:anthonyu said:mikef07 said:One thing I was told Anthony from the MMA guy is that your HELOC will never be negative. Your -1000 balance does not happen according to them.

Mike, in that example, it only becomes negative because I made the salary 1 lump sum and the bill payments in 1 lump sum for easier calculation. That's why I said that even if it is negative, interest will be 0 so that there is no undue advantage at it being negative. In reality, you could have multiple salary deposits and multiple bills overlapping throughout a month, and the software is "supposed to optimize that" so that you're always close to 0 balance. I don't how the software does that, or if it does.

Regardless, I have the actual results from the actual UFF MMA software. I posted the exact numbers you get from my scenario. It costs $5,000 more in my case. It cannot be argued. The results are from them.

I don't even need a spreadsheet and I can tell you that you will pay approximately $1500-$2500 more in interest because in 3 different scenarios (I got a new scenario this morning BTW) it has been that much each time

Are you including the $3500 payment? As I said before, I will never pay $3500 for this information, that's why I'm simulating it using spreadsheets and simple algorithms.

$1500-$2500 (Interest from doing HELOC)+ $3500 (Cost of software)= $5000-$6000

anthonyu said:Are you including the $3500 payment? As I said before, I will never pay $3500 for this information, that's why I'm incorrectly simulating it using spreadsheets and simple algorithms.Fixed it for you.

you asked for a place to host because "I think I'm able to estimate the savings using Excel.", i offered via pm a spreadsheet that did that I knew you didn't have one that did that (because you can't save), you said via pm you figured it own on your own. you got the ammoritization schedule correct. the comparison, not som much seeing as you missed the key cost making MMA more expensive. heck, you can make the MMA loan paid off in 1 month at zero cost if you don't account for the cost of the entire balance payoff you make in month 1.

yeah, thanks for playing.

ps. i said you asked via PM, I spoke incorrectly about that. My apologies for that. i will not apologize for calling your spreadsheet crap, because it is. My mistakes are my problem, I was wrong to type that. Your mistakes, however are yours alone. Fix your spreadsheet and fix your claims.

calvinandhobbes said:confuseu said:calvinandhobbes said:how come MMA supporters can only post marketing crap and unverified program outputs while MMA detracters can actually post the formulas and the resulting numbers that show it doesn't work? the answer to that is obvious.

Speaking of formulas..have you ever seen an amortization schedule formula? The full formula...it's more than a couple of numbers and some x= crap...

If so, please show it to us.

You can't even get that right.already did that with the google spreadsheet i posted a few pages back that debunked anthony's spreadsheet that noted the HELOC interest owed, but didn't actually pay it. keep on scammin'

How exactly did you debunk my spreadsheet? As I said before, that is an amortization schedule of how much you will save if you make certain pre-payments. It does not tell you how/when/how much to pre-pay or where the money will come from. Go ahead and compare the results with any mortgage calculator and TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE SPREADSHEET. You can use bankrate’s calculator because it gives you the option of paying monthly, annually or 1-time and gives you the month-by-month results.

I already told you in this post how to simulate your scenario so go ahead and do it and find out the results.

So go ahead and re-invest 25% of $236.25 = 59.06, or for the heck of it put in 50% of $236.25 = 118.12, into month 11 and find out who will save more. In the spreadsheet, you will have to go to the “Multiple Payments” tab, enter Months 1 to 10, $200. Then on the next line, enter Months 11 to 11, $59.06 or $118.12. Click on Calculate and find out which gets paid sooner.

Whether you decide to re-invest the accrued HELOC interest or not is your business and no mortgage calculator will make that assumption. The spreadsheet does give you the ability to use that interest as a payment using the Multiple Payments tab. Just make sure that if you’re doing that to refute MMA claims, use the actual HELOC interest that an MMA follower would incur and not the supposed HELOC interest that a non-MMA person would incur. (See previous thread about this.)

You did not debunk the spreadsheet, you just claimed to be right while I was on vacation. Now that I’m back, you’re wrong again.

it is YOUR mistake when we say "scenario A" doesn't work, and you say, "no, actually it does, here's a spreadsheet that shows it' and you reference to outputs from it, from the inputs you incorrectly put into it.

YOU put the inputs in wrong.
YOU took the outputs out.
YOU made the wrong conclusion.

See a pattern there that might point to who made the mistake?

The mistake you made is the very essence of why the MMA doesn't work at all, $3500 or not.

edit:

3. Comparing the different scenarios, you will come up ahead by using a HELOC to make a big one-time payment than by making extra monthly payments. This is, of course, assuming that you have the disposable income to pay off your HELOC in the same monthly payments. The short explanation here is explained in #1 above, where interest saved is compounded for the life of the loan (29 years) whereas you pay HELOC interest only for 12 months. So having a 10% or 20% HELOC doesn't matter as much compared to the compounding factor of interest saved. Of course, the compounding effect will be smaller/negligible if you're already in year 25 of your loan.sound familiar? you said it. the conclusion you drew from your spreadsheet because it doesn't compare them correctly.

hate2work said:Here's an example of the type of person selling this thing. I was writing back and forth with Jaime Buckley (referenced on page 21 of this thread) and was telling him that the Mortgage Professor didn't think very much of this UFF deal. He countered by sending me the link to this guy's site, and told me this guy had way more credibility than the Mortgage Professor. <cough>

http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=MMA_skept
ics&refpage=issues

Your friend the claims G. Edward Griffin is smarter than the Mortgage Professor is absolutely corrcet. Mr. Griffin answers most questions posted here without any hesitation. If there are any "true" financial experts in this forum...as SO MANY HAVE CLAIMED TO BE...they would be very aware of Mr. Griffin. I very familiar with much of his work, but had no idea he supported the MMA.

calvinandhobbes said:anthonyu said:Just like Bankrate, it will not make any assumption on re-investing interest. Fortunately, my spreadsheet allows you to re-invest the interest so go ahead and plug in the numbers.this isn't re-investing like taking a dividend and buying more stock. This is money you have to PAY, not invest. Wow, you really don't get this stuff.

you calclulated how much interest the heloc would cost. you actually have to pay that interest? i assume you agree with me here. those are green dollars coming out of your pocket. in order to correctly compare the MMA setup to the non MMA setup, you need to apply the same green dollars you spent on the heloc to the other mortgage. and when you do, you come out behind.

knowing how to make that comparison correctly is part of any basic finance class.

Again, I'm not asking for an explanation. In previous posts, I have qualified "re-investing" as "paying back into the mortgage". I understand you perfectly. I understand the scenario that you want. So...

Just plug in the numbers.

What's so hard with that?

calvinandhobbes said:anthonyu said:I understand the scenario that you want. So...

Just plug in the numbers.i took my own and posted it pages ago, since, in it's form you posted it, it's wrong (and incomplete since it conveniently doesn't show payments). it showed, as others pointed out as well, your comclusions are incorrect.

Again, just plug in the numbers. No explanations. You cannot say that it is wrong if you do not use it correctly.

anthonyu said:Again, just plug in the numbers. No explanations. You cannot say that it is wrong if you do not use it correctly.in it's saved form you posted to us (remember when i made the comparison to moving part of one credit card balance to another card with a higher rate?), with the inputs YOU PUT INTO IT, it's wrong. Sorry you don't get that. YOU used it inncorrectly. If you are going to set up a spreadsheet to make the comparison, have the spreadsheet make the comparison. Heck, if you are saying it mimics bankrate, what's the point? just use bankrate.

You said you'd show my credit card scenario was inccorect, and you posted your spreadsheet, with your inputs, and posted the numbers it spit out. Your conclusion was wrong because the output was wrong, what's so hard to admitting that? I admitted I was wrong about the PM, but you can't seem to grasp you made a glaring error in your analysis.