Maybe what the UFF shills/presentations are banking upon are the converts signing up more converts...with the commission structure, if a convert recruits other hapless folks, technically their claim that there's no change to current lifestyle could be true. Could the magical program perhaps takes into account a certain income stream from commissions, apply that to the principal and voila, a mortgage paid off that much faster with no big change to current lifestyle.

But a MLM company couldn't possibly be THAT slimey, could it???

confuseu said:mikef07 said:Confuseu, I already know the answer. The reason they want to know your income, debt, and discretionary income amounts is so they can figure out the best possible scenario for you using the MMA software and the thing that matters most is discretionary income. In fact, I was told as that (discretionary income) goes up, your time to pay off your mortgage goes down, and in fact 22% of the people are ahead of schedule because they had more discretionary income coming in than they thought.

discretionary income does play a role in the software. When has it been stated that it does not? Most people also have more than a mortgage for debt. Another factor that no one has brought up is consolidation. Are you going to argue consolidation would not affect ones outcome? Each individual's situation is different. Please check UFF FAQ's regarding...."will the MMA work for everyone?"...the answer is NO. It has NEVER been claimed it works for EVERYONE. The software is a TOOL...also specified in marketing material and presentation. The tool is called the customers "financial dashboard"...it tells you where you are, where your going, what happens if you would like to change your information...what would the REAL COST actually be...how it would affect your payments/interest etc. You have claimed you have the income to do it your self automatically. Great. Do it. Most Americans are not in that position. What the MMA has done is bring the ability to get your financial matters in order, consolidate debt and take better control of your money. It is VERY, VERY far from even being close to a scam? My God, they are trying to help people...AVERAGE people. Listen, to all.....why don't you go after Jenny Craig, Weight Watchers, Slim Fast etc.....this is ALL FREE KNOWLEDGE as well, and more Americans know how to fix their weight problem than anything else in this world....EAT BETTER - EXERCISE MORE!...Yet they spend BILLIONS on having someone tell them to do just that!

The MMA works. Period. Don't pay the $3500.00 if you don't want to.

Does it work? Yes it does. It will help you pay your house off earlier.

Does it cost a price? Yes it does.

Is that price too much? For some yes, for others no.

Can you do it more for cheaper? Yes, but as you said there are many things in life you can do cheaper by yourself

Are you applying discretionary income towards your mortgage? In the MMA case you are and in the do it yourself case you are.

Are the sales tactics of marketing of the product misleading? Again to some yes, to others no. You bought it knowing exactly what it entailed and were OK with the price and the product. I can live with that.

Would 100% of people paid off their mortgage earlier by doing it themself? Of course not

Could 100% of people pay off their mortgage by doing it themself? Of course they could (But might not)

confuseu said:<blub>...Do it. Most Americans are not in that position. What the MMA has done is bring the ability to get your financial matters in order, consolidate debt and take better control of your money. It is VERY, VERY far from even being close to a scam? <blub>

The MMA works. Period. Don't pay the $3500.00 if you don't want to.Why are you still holding on to this last string after all the proof that the MMA does nothing for people who don't have extra income. Not to mention for people who can't manage money this provide a temptation to dig a big hole.

Call this a scam is being charitable.

confuseu said:Agreed. In a perfect world...one where everyone had plenty of money to make the "double" payment you can afford every month toward the mortgage...they wouldn't need a HELOC to do it with either(again, they have $)...and there would be no need for 99% of the mortgage products on the market. That is not reality. Reality is...there is a place for the MMA...it is not an MLM SCAM...and it is NOT for everyone.
Again, how does MMA help somebody who does not have any "extra" income pay off their mortgage faster?

demingy said:dosun said:confuseu said:Agreed. In a perfect world...one where everyone had plenty of money to make the "double" payment you can afford every month toward the mortgage...they wouldn't need a HELOC to do it with either(again, they have $)...and there would be no need for 99% of the mortgage products on the market. That is not reality. Reality is...there is a place for the MMA...it is not an MLM SCAM...and it is NOT for everyone.
Again, how does MMA help somebody who does not have any "extra" income pay off their mortgage faster?

This is where the argument has been very circular. One the one hand we're hearing, "Duh of course you have to have the money to make extra payments" and on the other hand we're hearing, "Well this software is for the "average Joe" who doesn't have the extra money to pay toward his mortgage." Of course depending on the post, this is supposed to be a program that helps people learn to budget and come up with the extra money to pay off their mortgage faster. Yet other posts state (and the MLM *ahem* I mean MMA sales states) that this allows someone to pay off their mortgage faster without any change in their lifestyle.

What is happening here...and YOU ALL KNOW IT....is we are splitting hairs. Discretionary vs. "extra". YOU won't let it go. I have said dozens of times, you could go buy a car for CASH...for the AVERAGE PERSON that is a DIRECT change in your immediate financial lifestyle. If you buy the car with a "loan" it doesn't really change or AFFECT your lifestyle to the same degree. And you know this...unless of course YOU CAN AFFORD TO DO IT WITH CASH BECAUSE YOU ARE WEALTHY OR HAVE SPENT A GREAT DEAL OF TIME SAVING FOR THIS TRANSACTION. If that is the case CONGRATULATIONS!!!! You also constantly fail to equate the "consolidation" option of the program. Give it a rest. The MMA works, again, get over it.

I think it might be time to lock this thread...there are two camps here:

- Camp A (consisting of confuseu and E101), who thinks MMA works
- Camp B (consisting of everyone else), who thinks MMA is a scam

It's pretty obvious that Camp B will never convince Camp A that they are wrong, and vice versa.

I have LOTS of discretionary income. A name like "Confuseu" suggests to me that you have no desire to actually clarify anything. This "system" is stupid. If you pay 3,000 for it, you are a sucker and no doubt vested in defending it. If you charge $3,000 for it you are a predator. HELOC rates are higher than Mortgage rates. If you don't want a mortgage, pay it off with your cash, not by borrowing money at a higher rate to do so. Its simple. And, for God's sake, if you have $3,000 to buy a stupid program that is going to tell you to borrow at a higher rate to pay off a note with a lower rate, take the money and pay off the note with the lower rate without going further into debt. You'll be better off.

confuseu's misstatements are getting old. Here's a refresher on an earlier view deception

[a]United First Financial makes its money through the sale of its software program used in conjunction with the MMA. Critics of UFF argue you do not need to spend $3,500 to pay down your mortgage using a software program, rather you can replicate the system yourself at no cost by setting up your own Home Equity Line of Credit (HELOC).

While there may be some merit to this argument, these critics do not take into account the cost of your time spent continually pouring over spread sheets and punching numbers in a calculator to come remotely close to the results that can be realized by using UFF's easy to manage software program.

Oh, so now the benefits are its better than a calculator and hours of time? To come remotely close? When our analysis showed that a straightforward, easy to implement prepayment schedule is actually easier and beats UFF?

And then their is the "we're better than Quicken arguement"Birkner adds that this program is also excellent for families needing to better manage their finances in general, since many homeowners do not truly understand the effects of consumer interest and debt. "Thanks to UFF's software program, you now know the results of your financial decisions as well as their real effects right away. You can start making better decisions because you can see everything instantly online. Making sound financial decisions to utilize your cashflow to reduce your debts without altering your lifestyle becomes a life-changing experience."

confuseu said:What is happening here...and YOU ALL KNOW IT....is we are splitting hairs. Discretionary vs. "extra". YOU won't let it go. I have said dozens of times, you could go buy a car for CASH...for the AVERAGE PERSON that is a DIRECT change in your immediate financial lifestyle. If you buy the car with a "loan" it doesn't really change or AFFECT your lifestyle to the same degree. And you know this...unless of course YOU CAN AFFORD TO DO IT WITH CASH BECAUSE YOU ARE WEALTHY OR HAVE SPENT A GREAT DEAL OF TIME SAVING FOR THIS TRANSACTION. If that is the case CONGRATULATIONS!!!! You also constantly fail to equate the "consolidation" option of the program. Give it a rest. The MMA works, again, get over it.
You are the only one splitting hairs between discretionary and "extra". To most of us discretionary income = extra income. If you buy a car with cash, you pay it now, if you buy a car using a loan, you pay later. YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY EITHER WAY.

Since this program is primarily marketed toward American's with mortgages "help them pay off their mortgage faster". To do that you need to pay into the principle. So at some point during your life, you will have to pay that amount out of your pocket. Since according to you, most American's don't have the "extra" money, how does the MMA program help? For the average JOE with no extra income, can he pay off his 30 year mortgage in 1/3 of the time?

By the way MLM is a term that describes a business model. Just like franchise describes McDonald's business model. Whether you agree with it or not, the MMA program is sold using a MLM business model.

confuseu said:I have said dozens of times, you could go buy a car for CASH...for the AVERAGE PERSON that is a DIRECT change in your immediate financial lifestyle. If you buy the car with a "loan" it doesn't really change or AFFECT your lifestyle to the same degree. And you know this...unless of course YOU CAN AFFORD TO DO IT WITH CASH BECAUSE YOU ARE WEALTHY OR HAVE SPENT A GREAT DEAL OF TIME SAVING FOR THIS TRANSACTION. If that is the case CONGRATULATIONS!!!! You also constantly fail to equate the "consolidation" option of the program. Give it a rest. The MMA works, again, get over it.

This is actually a great example, because by the terms you use in the MLM pitch, if I buy the car with my "idle cash" (your words form the MLM pitch), you are saying it DOES affect my lifestyle, but if I take out a loan, it doesn't

Yet, by analogy, you make the exact reverse pitch with the MLM scam, that applying "idle cash" to you mortgage DOES NOT affect your lifestyle.

JayK is right, there are two camps

1. Those that see the numbers clearly that MMA / MLM is oversold hype
2. The scammers and those that are still scammed