EricGo07 said:BradPeterson said:Thanks all for the welcome.Well deserved.

You should hang out, and look at the other threads a bit. I bet we can learn from each other.
By the way, don't feel bad that it took a couple days to figure the scam out. Many of us realized immediately that the salary float was peanuts, but SiS was the first to figure out that discretionary income applied to the mortgage was the hidden factor.
Welcome as well Brad (Check your PM) SIS, by the way, in a now archived thread, also correctly guessed that they are an MLM pyramid. (Which we have recently verified by going through their "internal" website

ellory said:SIS, by the way, in a now archived thread, also correctly guessed that they are an MLM pyramid. (Which we have recently verified by going through their "internal" websiteYeah. He has been right other times as well in guessing that the marketing is through MLM.

I thought about it, and realized as I presume he has, that any 'product' that has minimal or no merit is very likely to be marketed through an MLM pyramid, particularly if some sort of national advertising campaign is also present.

EricGo07 said: It generates 5000*.06/26 = $11.54 a month of "interest cancellation"
But the $3500 you are thinking of paying for the scam COSTS you 3500*.06/12 = $17.5 a month of "interest cancellation" -- AND you are down $3500.

I'm happy to pursue this line of reasoning with you, because it is enough to show the cost of the scam is higher than any possible returns, but do keep in mind that the **fantastic** return of $11.54 a month from the salary float is quite a bit more than you will see in practice, because it ignores the cost of the HELOC interest incurred to receive it.

I apologize for not being able to get back with anyone yet. Work has been hectic and the kids / church kept me pretty busy this weekend.

Ok... here's where we are disagreeing FIRST. Your numbers are simply incorrect.

If I have $10,000 on a credit card my minimum payment the first month would be $300 (Based on 3% rate.)Of that $300, roughly $116 would go to interest. Paying the 3% minimum would take me 227 months or 18.92 years to pay it off.

Now I get a HELOC or a personal line of credit (PLOC) and I pay off the credit card with it.

First, let's review the requirements of the HELOC or PLOC.

Interest only
Variable rate
Check writing / online banking capable.

Now, Since it is interest only (10 years interest only loan is quite standard, so lets use that.) My "interest only" payment would be $74.17.

Now, when I get paid my net income of $5,000 (and someone said this is far more than the average person who is using this gets paid - to which I disagree. A household net income of $5K monthly equates to roughly a $90K annual or 2 income earners at $45K annual which is far from unusual.) I deposit it into my credit line.

May payment was $74.17. It is simple logic that if I could leave the $5K there all month that my payment would be half of what it was or $37.09. However, I have bills to pay. So, two weeks in I payout all of the $5K (minus any discretionary income but let's skip this for ease sake right now.)

So, by the end of the month my payment actually ends up looking like $55.63 Even just considering my low "interest only" payment, the interest saved by my paycheck sitting there for 2 weeks was roughly $20 so even on these conservative numbers you are incorrect on the calculations. However, let's look at the overall gains.

I had a previous payment of $300. I ended up paying $55.63. That's a gain of $244.37. Now, taking the exact scenario that I previously gave, sending in this $244.37 a month into the mortgage has the mortgage AND the credit line paid off in 8.5. This did not take in to consideration "discretionary income."

I think that quite clearly demonstrates why and how this works.

LisaS said:The term apples and oranges comes to mind...

How can you compare a P&I payment (credit card) to an Interest only payment (HELOC) and say the difference is what makes everything paid off that much earlier? I'm staggering under the sheer illogic weight of it all...apples to oranges? c'mon, just because the debt in that scnario is only ~5% of the average mortgage, and that he is assuming that someone would put $5k in a non-interest bearing account has no effect on his numbers. (note sarcasm).

everytime these jokers try to show numbers, they show parts of the math that work in their favor, and they rarely use realistic numbers. Whenever you run the full math, you generally come out behind in today's interest rate climate. And the $3500 just makes it worse. After 60 pages, I think I've come to the conclusion that anyone that reads through all that has been presented and thinks that they can shave decades off their mortgage simply because of this software and without extra payments deserves to lose their $3500. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

JOrsak said: A household net income of $5K monthly equates to roughly a $90K annual or 2 income earners at $45K annual which is far from unusual.)
Median HHI is $46k, source, up from 44.4k in 2002-2004 source. 90k is not only unusual, it's rare.

LisaS said:The term apples and oranges comes to mind...

How can you compare a P&I payment (credit card) to an Interest only payment (HELOC) and say the difference is what makes everything paid off that much earlier? I'm staggering under the sheer illogic weight of it all...

Say what you wish. I just DEMONSTRATED how the math produces discretionary income that pays down the mortgage early.

So... instead of attitude and ego just demonstrate why that scenario doesn't work.

JOrsak said:
If I have $10,000 on a credit card my minimum payment the first month would be $300 (Based on 3% rate.)Of that $300, roughly $116 would go to interest.
Let me guess, that makes the interest rate on the credit card is around 200% according to you, right? It has to be in order to match what youve previously posted about mortgage interest rates.
JOrsak said:
I think that quite clearly demonstrates why and how this works.
Yes, you demonstrated that taking a lower interest rate loan to pay off a higher interest rate loan produces advantages. The problem is you compare a Heloc (medium rate) to a Credit card (high rate) when you should be comparing a Heloc (medium rate) to a mortgage (low rate). You can't take a higher rate loan to pay off a lower rate loan quicker. It does not work, period, end of story.

JOrsak said:EricGo07 said: It generates 5000*.06/26 = $11.54 a month of "interest cancellation"
But the $3500 you are thinking of paying for the scam COSTS you 3500*.06/12 = $17.5 a month of "interest cancellation" -- AND you are down $3500.

I'm happy to pursue this line of reasoning with you, because it is enough to show the cost of the scam is higher than any possible returns, but do keep in mind that the **fantastic** return of $11.54 a month from the salary float is quite a bit more than you will see in practice, because it ignores the cost of the HELOC interest incurred to receive it.Ok... here's where we are disagreeing FIRST. Your numbers are simply incorrect.

If I have $10,000 on a credit card my minimum payment the first month would be $300 (Based on 3% rate.)Of that $300, roughly $116 would go to interest. Paying the 3% minimum would take me 227 months or 18.92 years to pay it off.

Now I get a HELOC or a personal line of credit (PLOC) and I pay off the credit card with it.

First, let's review the requirements of the HELOC or PLOC.

Interest only
Variable rate
Check writing / online banking capable.

Now, Since it is interest only (10 years interest only loan is quite standard, so lets use that.) My "interest only" payment would be $74.17.

Now, when I get paid my net income of $5,000 (and someone said this is far more than the average person who is using this gets paid - to which I disagree. A household net income of $5K monthly equates to roughly a $90K annual or 2 income earners at $45K annual which is far from unusual.) I deposit it into my credit line.

May payment was $74.17. It is simple logic that if I could leave the $5K there all month that my payment would be half of what it was or $37.09. However, I have bills to pay. So, two weeks in I payout all of the $5K (minus any discretionary income but let's skip this for ease sake right now.)

So, by the end of the month my payment actually ends up looking like $55.63 Even just considering my low "interest only" payment, the interest saved by my paycheck sitting there for 2 weeks was roughly $20 so even on these conservative numbers you are incorrect on the calculations. However, let's look at the overall gains.

I had a previous payment of $300. I ended up paying $55.63. That's a gain of $244.37. Now, taking the exact scenario that I previously gave, sending in this $244.37 a month into the mortgage has the mortgage AND the credit line paid off in 8.5. This did not take in to consideration "discretionary income."

I think that quite clearly demonstrates why and how this works.In the credit card example, you are offseting an ~ 13% apr debt with a 10% apr debt. Nice move. In the home loan situation, you are offsetting a 6% apr debt (the mortgage), with a 10% apr debt (the HELOC). See the difference ???

Unless your home loan is at credit card rates, the argument does not make sense. Did you notice the expression I wrote earlier, that said
5000*.06/26 = $11.54 ?
The .06 is the offsetted loan apr.

Have you already bought the UFF scam or are you a reseller ? I ask because I will not waste my time trying to convince either of those two groups to accept a rational analysis.

Note, read carefully WallStMonkey's response. He is one of the most astute finance guys on this board.

kamalktk said:JOrsak said:
If I have $10,000 on a credit card my minimum payment the first month would be $300 (Based on 3% rate.)Of that $300, roughly $116 would go to interest.
Let me guess, that makes the interest rate on the credit card is around 200% according to you, right? It has to be in order to match what youve previously posted about mortgage interest rates.
JOrsak said:
I think that quite clearly demonstrates why and how this works.
Yes, you demonstrated that taking a lower interest rate loan to pay off a higher interest rate loan produces advantages. The problem is you compare a Heloc (medium rate) to a Credit card (high rate) when you should be comparing a Heloc (medium rate) to a mortgage (low rate). You can't take a higher rate loan to pay off a lower rate loan quicker. It does not work, period, end of story.

"Let me guess, that makes the interest rate on the credit card is around 200% according to you, right?"

The interest rate on the credit card I used was 14.9% - a very NORMAL interest rate. I used an online credit card interest rate calculator. If you would like to challenge the numbers, please feel free. I can point you to the website if you'd like although there are NUMEROUS sites for such calculations.

"Yes, you demonstrated that taking a lower interest rate loan to pay off a higher interest rate loan produces advantages. The problem is you compare a Heloc (medium rate) to a Credit card (high rate) when you should be comparing a Heloc (medium rate) to a mortgage (low rate). You can't take a higher rate loan to pay off a lower rate loan quicker. It does not work, period, end of story."

Once again, attitude and arrogance instead of civility. Sad.

What I demonstrated was using a HELOC or PLOC to pay off credit debt and then using the software, I track all the interest rates and variables to show the amount of interest saved then rolling that savings into the mortgage payment as additional principle payment produces an early payoff.

It is sad that civil discourse can not be found on this site and that ego and attitude clouds your ability to see a very simple scenario by which a mortgage is paid off earlier.

Those are the MATHEMATICAL facts and I've demonstrated it clearly. Until anyone here demonstrates otherwise and doesn't just spout hatred / ego, I will take this as case closed.

Thank you for your time.

ellory said:EricGo07 said:confuseu said:The float is intrest free...he just Won't understand...it's the timing. I'm guessing you won't believe me if I sayLet’s review this. We started with a balance of $3500. We end with a balance of $2500. But we never actually made a scheduled payment to the line of credit. Our $5000 block of income represented the monthly payment. Now, we will be charged interest on the $2500, and let’s say that’s at a rate of 10 percent. The finance charge would be $20.83 on that $2500 balance.Will you believe the UFF seminar ppt notes I copied it off of ?

Note: That is $20.83 per month, or - surprise - $250 per year (10% of $2500).
So there is an interest of $250 per year, from the MMA approach, which says it is better to pay HELOC interest and "make that float work for me" and paydown my mortgage earlier.

If my mortgage is at 6%, I have avoided paying 6% * $2500 = $150 / year or $12.50 per month.

MMA costs more by $8.33 per month or $100 / year, plus out of pocket $3500 up front purchase ($2500 of which is paid as MLM commissions)Ellory, this is an *old* post (pages wise at any rate) that I missed. The scenario it comes from expects a net salary deposited into the HELOC of 5k, not 2.5k. So the offset interest is $300 a year rather than $150.

So, the $3500 upfront cost returns $50 a year. Of course, this is compared to leaving the salary in a checking account giving 0% interest. If our UFF candidates simply put their salary into a HYS account at say, 5%, they would make ~ 2500*.05 = $125 in interest savings. This is assuming even use of the salary throughout the month, while the UFF assumes the salary can be spent slower. I'll give UFF the benefit of the doubt; they look bad enough as it is.

Final arithmetic: Pay $3500, and make $50 a year -- the UFF way, or
Keep the $3500, and make $125 a year in a HYS account.

This seems to be a tough choice for some >>shrug<<