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ThirdJoker
- Member
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 1:08p 
dweick said:bcdond said:WalStMonky said:Doh! I figured it out! How could I have been so dense?!? It really is simple math...you collect commissions from lining up suckers to buy into this scam, and that pays your mortgage down much much faster than if you didn't get the commissions!! But wait...do I have to sign up for the money merge account myself? I could line up suckers to earn commissions, and pay off a motgage+HELOC+HY checking account combo much faster than using the scam for my own mortgage...
Do I win a prize for figuring out the secret?
Then how do explain my savings over the past four months. If it wasn't working shouldn't I know it by now?
If you have "savings" over the past four months it is because you spent less money than you earned.
Period.
You are welcome to explain it some other way, preferably with math and not a vague assertion.
To me, he doesn't have to explain it. He has savings, he sees value in what he is doing. Let's just congratulate him for finding a program that works for him and move on. dweick, you are right. If he has savings, it is because he spent less than he earned. But let's not forget that this happened while he was using the MMA program. Cause and effect or mere coincidence? See, to me, that is the value proposition. |
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ThirdJoker
- Member
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 1:13p
lostdude said:ThirdJoker said:To the extent that the "snake oil salesmen" are making exaggerated claims, no, of course not. But in my mind, yours is an inappropriate analogy. Rather than "snake oil salesman" I prefer to think of the MMA as herbal medicine, acupuncture or chiropractic care.Oh, pleassseeee..
Herbal, Acupunture, and certain Chiropractic practice has been shown scientifically to work.
Why not just hand me over the $3,500 and a big stick and I'll make sure you save enough $ to pay off your mortgage sooner?! Praxeologically!!!
Under certain circumstances, in certain cases, for certain things, yes. But for other circumstances, there is zero scientific basis for these things "working". I have some firsthand experience with acupuncture so I've seem some of the literature about what has been proven to work and what hasn't. Yet practitioners of these techniques continue to provide them.
I like your big stick idea, though. I wonder if the NASD would let me charge a fee for that? I have a few clients for whom I see no better strategy! |
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zoop76
- Addicted Member
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 1:19p
bcdond said:This concept has been Nation wide for a year now, and three years of testing before that.
Too bad the interest rate landscape has changed since then, making this whole scheme worthless. |
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dweick
- Senior Member - 1K
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 1:23p
ThirdJoker said:dweick said:bcdond said:WalStMonky said:Doh! I figured it out! How could I have been so dense?!? It really is simple math...you collect commissions from lining up suckers to buy into this scam, and that pays your mortgage down much much faster than if you didn't get the commissions!! But wait...do I have to sign up for the money merge account myself? I could line up suckers to earn commissions, and pay off a motgage+HELOC+HY checking account combo much faster than using the scam for my own mortgage...
Do I win a prize for figuring out the secret?
Then how do explain my savings over the past four months. If it wasn't working shouldn't I know it by now?
If you have "savings" over the past four months it is because you spent less money than you earned.
Period.
You are welcome to explain it some other way, preferably with math and not a vague assertion.
To me, he doesn't have to explain it. He has savings, he sees value in what he is doing. Let's just congratulate him for finding a program that works for him and move on. dweick, you are right. If he has savings, it is because he spent less than he earned. But let's not forget that this happened while he was using the MMA program. Cause and effect or mere coincidence? See, to me, that is the value proposition.
Sure he has to explain it. He asserts he has savings because of a $3500 system, I think it has nothing to do with his depositing his pay in a HELOC and everything to do with him spending less money than he makes. That's assuming he is even telling the truth. |
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ellory
- Thrifty Member
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 1:29p
ThirdJoker said:
To me, he doesn't have to explain it. He has savings, he sees value in what he is doing. Let's just congratulate him for finding a program that works for him and move on. dweick, you are right. If he has savings, it is because he spent less than he earned. But let's not forget that this happened while he was using the MMA program. Cause and effect or mere coincidence? See, to me, that is the value proposition.To me that's a scam and fraud. This forum isn't about self-affirmation and feel good. This is about taking the most effective financial actions. And, from a fact based viewpoint, this is far less effective than other strategies. Given this and Dave Ramsey --- hmmm - Dave may be less fraudulent |
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longwood8
- Senior Member - 1K
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 1:30p
bcdond said:Not really...I will be glad to show you my numbers...I have saved 5000 since Feb. and I have already rec. 300 back from my Cash Back card.I think people would rather hear from a satisfied customer than someone who has never tried the product.
Then show the numbers or stfu.
The OP is looking for the truth, and you can't handle the truth. |
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captainwho
- Senior Member
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 1:35p
Baaa... Forget this. I have a SURE-FIRE way to make money in a three-card-monte game! |
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dweick
- Senior Member - 1K
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 1:40p
Here is how these schemes are promoted:
"The bottom line is that this company is selling a software program that manages your personal arbitrage. It then directs you to take money out of a HELOC to put toward your primary mortgage. It is not magic ... it is just math.
We have been taught to give banks our personal money float/arbitrage, as a gift. We put money in checking at 0%, our savings at 3% and then we pay the bank 6% for our mortgages (as examples). The banks make billions off the arbitrage - the spread between these rates.
Why do we let the banks use our money for free... or for pennies, when we could use it ourselves?
The Money Merge Account program puts your personal arbitrage to work paying off your debt. "
While they keep talking about "it's just math" they never actually attempt to put forth the math. That is because this program does NOT pay off mortgage substantially faster because of the float/arbitrage. It is simply, factually and mathematically NOT TRUE.
$5000 in monthly income will only throw off $300 per year, before taxes, if you could "arbitrage" it by using it to pay down your mortgage at the start of the month instead of having it sit in a 0% checking account for the entire month. That's it. $300 per year.
The simple fact is that the only way to pay your mortgage down substantially faster has NOTHING to do with "magic software", HELOCS or arbitrage. It has to do with taking MORE money out of your pocket each month and sending it to your mortgage holder.
Yet people are conned into thinking they don't need to change their lifestyle, that huge mortgage paydowns are possible without taking additional money out of their pocket. It is a complete and utter rip off.
You'll never find anyone who will actually lay out in detail how the program has "saved" them money because it won't. That's why you see one poster promoting it like snake oil, testimonies for anonymous strangers. I bought the program, saved $5000 and my gout was cured! I was single and saved $2500 and found the woman of my dreams! |
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dweick
- Senior Member - 1K
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 1:54p
longwood8 said:bcdond said:Not really...I will be glad to show you my numbers...I have saved 5000 since Feb. and I have already rec. 300 back from my Cash Back card.I think people would rather hear from a satisfied customer than someone who has never tried the product.
Then show the numbers or stfu.
The OP is looking for the truth, and you can't handle the truth.
You will never get these people to put up numbers. Let's see the math, show us the numbers with and without the program. To get things rolling let's use someone who brings home $5000 each month, a paycheck on the 1st and the 15th, has a brand new 30 yr $250K mortgage at 6.5% with a monthly payment of $1580.17 with their first payment due July 2007 and can open a HELOC at 8% interest. Since specifics seem to elude the proponents I'll even make it easier, he has an additional $2800 in monthly expenses (food, utilities, auto, fun, etc) and he has the incredible advantage of being able to put all those expenses on a credit card that closes on the last day of the month and the payment isn't due until the last day of the next month.
Go for it guys. Enough talk, let's see the savings with and without the program. |
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visualbang
- Member
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 1:58p
Or you can use the amounts that I posted in the op. I hope I didn't start a battle here.
...I am waiting on speaking with the "Scammer" shortly.
Thanks! |
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dweick
- Senior Member - 1K
rated:
posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 2:13p
Heck, I'll go ahead and work up the numbers for our example for the poor sap who doesn't spend $3500 for the program and doesn't have any hope of paying off his mortgage early or saving thousands of dollars in just a few months.
July 1, 2007
Deposit paycheck
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Checking account: $2500
Mortgage balance: $250,000
Credit card balance: $0
July 15, 2007
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Deposit paycheck, pay mortgage
Checking account balance: $3419.83
Mortgage balance: $249774.00
Credit card balance: $0
August 1, 2007
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Deposit paycheck, credit card charges hit
Checking account balance: 5919.83
Mortgage balance: $249774.00
Credit card balance: $2800
August 15, 2007
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Deposit paycheck, pay mortgage
Checking account balance: $6839.66
Mortgage balance: $249546.77
Credit card balance: $2800
September 1, 2007
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Deposit paycheck, credit card charges hit, pay credit card bill
Checking account balance: 6539.66
Mortgage balance: $249546.77
Credit card balance: $2800
September 15, 2007
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Deposit paycheck, pay mortgage
Checking account balance: $7459.49
Mortgage balance: $249318.31
Credit card balance: $2800
October 1, 2007
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Deposit paycheck, credit card charges hit, pay credit card bill
Checking account balance: 7159.49
Mortgage balance: $249318.31
Credit card balance: $2800
October 15, 2007
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Deposit paycheck, pay mortgage
Checking account balance: $8378.83
Mortgage balance: $249088.61
Credit card balance: $2800
November 1, 2007
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Deposit paycheck, credit card charges hit, pay credit card bill
Checking account balance: 8378.83
Mortgage balance: $249088.61
Credit card balance: $2800
OK, there are four months w/o the system. This poor sap that didn't buy the system has increased his net worth by $6490.22 in four months. I'm anxious to see how many more thousands of dollars the system will save this guy given that one poster swears it saved him $5000 in just 4 months. |
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ledwards
- Member
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 4:56p
bcdond said: It's more than that. It is plain to see you have not seen a full presentation if you had you would not make the comments you are making. Don't jump to conclusions based on faulty info. This concept has been Nation wide for a year now, and three years of testing before that. Where are all the dissatisfied Customers. The company is growing at a rate of 1400 new clients per month. Surley there would be one person on all these forums that has a complaint. I have yet to find one.
There weren't any dissatisfied customers on all those interest only negative amortized loans either....until the interest rates adjusted and the hammer dropped. |
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DickWhitcomb
- Member
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 5:34p
Where are all the dissatisfied Customers.
Anyone ignorant enough to pay $3500 for something that would only take a no fee HELOC and 5 minutes of math is also probably ignorant enough to not know they got gipped to be a "dissatisfied customer".
If you pay $3500 to have someone do the math for you how are you going to to do the math to see if it was worth your while or not? You aren't.
How will they know if they are saving money because they are paying it down faster or because of this mumbo jumbo system? If they can't do math they won't. |
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wolf17
- Member
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posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 5:48p
DickWhitcomb said:Where are all the dissatisfied Customers.
Anyone ignorant enough to pay $3500 for something that would only take a no fee HELOC and 5 minutes of math is also probably ignorant enough to not know they got gipped to be a "dissatisfied customer".
If you pay $3500 to have someone do the math for you how are you going to to do the math to see if it was worth your while or not? You aren't.
How will they know if they are saving money because they are paying it down faster or because of this mumbo jumbo system? If they can't do math they won't.
You need those people the same reason you need those people who always pay minimum balance on their 18% credit card so that you can enjoy those 0% BTs. |
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ellory
- Thrifty Member
rated:
posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 7:18p
visualbang said:Or you can use the amounts that I posted in the op. I hope I didn't start a battle here.
...I am waiting on speaking with the "Scammer" shortly.
Thanks!What you did was good. Please let us know what the scammer says. Invite them to post here... |
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ThirdJoker
- Member
rated:
posted: Jun. 19, 2007 @ 8:04p
dweick said:Heck, I'll go ahead and work up the numbers for our example for the poor sap who doesn't spend $3500 for the program and doesn't have any hope of paying off his mortgage early or saving thousands of dollars in just a few months.
....
OK, there are four months w/o the system. This poor sap that didn't buy the system has increased his net worth by $6490.22 in four months. I'm anxious to see how many more thousands of dollars the system will save this guy given that one poster swears it saved him $5000 in just 4 months.
Actually, the poor sap in our example increased his net worth by $3990.22. You didn't take into account the $2800 balance on the card at the end.
Net at the beginning:
Mortgage $250,000
Checking $ 2,500
-----------------
Net $247,500
Net at the end:
Mortgage $249,088.61
Cred Crd $ 2,800.00
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Debt $251,888.61
Checking $ 8,378.83
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Net $243,509.78
$247,500 - $243,509.78 = $3,990.22
$2479.32 of that is unspent income ($5000 - $1580.17 - $2800.00 = $619.83 x 4 = $2479.32). Where is the other $1510.90 ($3990.22 - $2479.32 = $1510.90) of increase in his net worth coming from? I see that $911.39 comes from the reduction in the principle balance of the loan. That leaves us with ($1510.90 - $911.39 = $599.51) $599.51 unaccounted for.
The checking account balance on October 15th should be $8079.32, not the $8378.83 as shown. |
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angelalds
- Thrifty Member
rated:
posted: Jun. 20, 2007 @ 8:07p
And you started a whole new thread because...? There is a new thread started yesterday by sickisstaples that talks about all these.
If you want someone else to make the decision then let the guy selling you this product make the decision. If you want someone else to run your numbers because you want someone else to tell you what to do then let the guy selling you this product make the decision. So your choice is this: You can listen to what nearly everyone on this forum is telling you about this company/scam/opportunity or you can go make a choice on your own as an adult.
I'm not trying to be rude at all but you said "I am still having trouble deciphering this product or the ways of doing it myself" and then later say " I could add about 5 more links to that, but it does not answer one of my questions. If I am going to save that much money, and I don't have the time to figure out a schedule of when to transfer funds to and from a HELOC, is it worth buying into this program to schedule it for me." You're asking a question of preference. If you don't have the time to figure it out and you are willing to spend the money then sure its worth it. But only you can decide if it is worth it. |
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