JamesHughbanks said: i told you i am nopt a liar or lame!...it was a great job done by anthony, it would have been much more easier and shorter time to not have all the negative name calling and brow beating. the spreadsheet is too hard to use for the average person....that does not mean that a cover could not be put on it to make it user freindly...then it's the question of marketing, packaging and distrubution...to get anything to the public it takes a great deal of money...what this group of brow beaters should be doing is putting their heads together and come up with a solution to compete in the marketplace instead of sitting on the side lines trying to beat someone else dowm..is it too expensive, guess depends who you ask, to someone that has never paid off a mortgage or even ever paid down a mortgage with principle payments, and this tool helps them do it,it could be worth the moon...to most of you, it is not worth anything. then there is every opinion inbetween.. i know the clients i have sold it to are very happy with the results because it changed their lives and gave them hope where they felt they had none before. so it is up to them...
one question for everyone...who in this group is following a regimented schedule to pay down their mortgage by sending whatever discrestionary they have each month?
With new products hitting the market, i am sure the price will come down,,,just like HD televisions 5k down to 1 k in a few years...i imagine this will happen to here.. the point is that a tool of this nature is helping many many people get a handle on debt and their finances...that is a good thing for America. quit browbeating and make a difference with this in a positive way to helkp americans get out of debt. I know i will be giving a full disclosure of what it is and is not
That is the lamest response I have seen after all the bravado you began with. The results were hardly surprising to JHB. At the very least admit in explicit words that UFF VERY BADLY LAGS DIY IN EVERY REAL LIFE SCENARIO YOU COULD CONJURE UP.
JamesHughbanks said: i told you i am nopt a liar or lame!...it was a great job done by anthony, it would have been much more easier and shorter time to not have all the negative name calling and brow beating. ... I know i will be giving a full disclosure of what it is and is not
What just a minute. That is not what you said. You said that you would refund your client's money if anthonyu showed that a simple prepayment plan beat UFF in your various scenarios.
Also, you say that the spreadsheet is to hard to use. However, the spreadsheet is only meant to show that UFF is worse than a simple prepayment plan. Someone using the simple prepayment plan does not need a spreadsheet -- they simply send in whatever is left over in their checking account at the end of each month. It doesn't matter what events have happened in their life, they simply follow the same simple procedure each month.
The spreadsheet does not need to be turned into a product because the simple prepayment plan doesn't need any product (that is why it is called "the simple prepayment plan").
The only thing you have done is put your clients deeper in debt and lined your own pockets. You should be ashamed of yourself. If you truly want to help people and believe that prepaying a mortgage is a good idea, you should councel people to follow the simple prepayment plan and stop bilking them out of their desperately needed money.
JHB pwned!! I hope someone backs up all his statements before he goes back and deletes them all. I know quite a few are quoted, but I expect an abrupt exit very soon.
one question for everyone...who in this group is following a regimented schedule to pay down their mortgage by sending whatever discrestionary they have each month?
Almost everyone. They may not be using a regimented schedule to pay down their mortgage, but they are using a schedule to invest in their investment of choice. For some it is their mortgage, for some CDs, for some Mutual Funds, for some stocks, and for some toliet paper.
The point is that they just showed you to take any extra money and put it towards X (whatever you want X to be). Each month do the same.
JamesHughbanks said: one question for everyone...who in this group is following a regimented schedule to pay down their mortgage by sending whatever discrestionary they have each month?
We did. In fact, we set up an automatic withdrawal and monitored it. No work required other than keeping an eye on our chequebook and modifying the payment only when necessary. You should know how much money you have in chequing whether you have a mortgage or not.
DIY is remarkably less complex than the MMA. As anthonyu proved, it's faster, too.
JamesHughbanks said: one question for everyone...who in this group is following a regimented schedule to pay down their mortgage by sending whatever discrestionary they have each month?
Many here think, over the long hual, they can get better return on their money by investing it elsewhere. OTHO, many would rather own a home. Some do better renting.
JamesHughbanks said: the spreadsheet is too hard to use for the average person.Maybe, but I doubt it. That is besides the point though -- the SS with your silly scenarios was just done to convince you that UFF was, is, and will always be shit. All an 'average' person has to do is not waste money, and send the excess to the mortgage each month. An automated call to the home loan company will give the uptodate balance remaining anytime they want it. Projections when the loan will be paid off is a short trip to a free home loan calculator on the web using the average discretionary income sent to the home loan, or whatever number the person cares to input.
Keep in mind that AnthonyU set up a do it yourself merge account. If he had set up a direct deposit to a high yield savings account for the salary and a HELOC for emergencies like most of us do, UFF would have come out even further behind. Moreover, I want to emphasize that the massive prepayments of about $2k a month in this game kept the UFF losses down to $9000. Every month the home loan exists past ~ 6.5 years , UFF is costing another $50+ dollars + compounding.
People who have bought into the scam are happy all the while that they think paydown is progressing faster than simple prepayment. Pick a couple of your marks and explain that the UFF system is costing them $3500 upfront plus 50+ every month over simple DIY prepayment and see what they say.
Addendum: I had earlier posted that UFF costs about $80 ongoing every month, but for more typical situations I think a $50 figure is conservative and going to be true almost all the time. The drop in estimate also occured after I spent a bit of time including all of the compounded opportunity losses of the UFF costs in my estimates.
Thanks for finally admitting it. In previous versions (including discussions with other people here on different topics), I've been hiding the formulas in hidden columns so that users are not overwhelmed and they only see the final results. On the way home last night, I realized that I can just display the formulas and lay out each payment category in distinct columns so users can see where their money goes every month. That's also how I knew there was something wrong with your initial results, because I had the benefit of seeing what happens every month. This is all simple math (add, subtract, multiply...I don't think I even used division). And the numbers don't lie.
BTW, there is nothing hard-coded in the spreadsheet. It's all user-entry data and formulas. So if you have the spreadsheet, you can put in your loan parameters (amount, interest rate, loan start date, HELOC rate, etc.) and it will display your amortization table automatically. Since most are not doing the HELOC salary float game, make sure you set the Float Efficiency to 100% to get the real monthly HELOC interest. You can clear the scenarios and put in your own. Since most people are years into their current mortgage, put in your loan data and find out how many months you are into the loan today (using amortization table on the left). You can then put in your current income and monthly expenses starting on month X up until month 360 in the scenario section so you can project when you can pay off your loan if you put in all discretionary income from this point forward. If some mortgage acceleration agent comes to you with his data, use the spreadsheet to verify if you still come out ahead doing it yourself. If their software costs less, put in that amount in the Software Cost column and you'll automatically see how you stand vs. their software.
If you want to project the effect of a 1 time or recurring pre-payment (ex. what if I make a 1 time $5000 payment at this stage of my loan, or I don't want to put in all my discretionary income but instead just want to put in $500 a month extra), what you have to do is clear all scenarios and: 1. Put in your monthly mortgage payment (make sure you exclude any property tax impound or escrow portion of your payment) as your income from Month 1 to Month 360. This is equivalent to making sure that your mortgage gets paid every month. You do not need to put in any monthly expense. We just need to ensure that the mortgage is getting paid. 2. Put in your 1 time or recurring payment scenario (as Income). 3. Click on calculate.
Now that I thought about it, this does pretty much what the UFF software does (less reports, etc.). The only difference is you put in the month number instead of the actual date. It takes less than 10 minutes to make that change. All I need is to add a vlookup function to the month number. But I'll wait until the next shill comes for motivation to update the spreadsheet. For now, my work is done.
JamesHughbanks said: i told you i am nopt a liar or lame!...it was a great job done by anthony, it would have been much more easier and shorter time to not have all the negative name calling and brow beating. the spreadsheet is too hard to use for the average person....that does not mean that a cover could not be put on it to make it user freindly...then it's the question of marketing, packaging and distrubution...to get anything to the public it takes a great deal of money...what this group of brow beaters should be doing is putting their heads together and come up with a solution to compete in the marketplace instead of sitting on the side lines trying to beat someone else dowm..is it too expensive, guess depends who you ask, to someone that has never paid off a mortgage or even ever paid down a mortgage with principle payments, and this tool helps them do it,it could be worth the moon...to most of you, it is not worth anything. then there is every opinion inbetween.. i know the clients i have sold it to are very happy with the results because it changed their lives and gave them hope where they felt they had none before. so it is up to them...
now that all of you have bashed me to death because of your arrogance, pride, and just stupidity, the tongue is a wicked thing and those that cannot control it will die by their words...
Let me enlighten you some more:
1. first of all, ANTHONY....you rule!!!!!!!!!!!! I am so happy you are dedicated to the truth of disclosure, good or bad,,,,i really appreciate at least one of you all have some sense,fairness, AND INTEGRITY!!!
2. As I said before, I beleive this has a lot to do about levereage of the Heloc against the first mortgage. With that statement, there is a mAjor flaw in the "efficiency float" assumption of 55%...Here is why:
a. you assume a 7% float efficiency on the money of the DIY.. That is incorrect....you have to be able to have a balance in ther heloc to "float" against... you cannot place the income in the line of credit if there is no balance owed and get 7%...the bank sends you your check back because you do not owe anything on the loan. So what we are stuck with on the float outside the MMA is the guaranteed interest you can receive on the savings/checking account MINUS the tax burden on that (i will assume 25%) Calvin and all the rest said to figure 3% on the checking account float 3% - 25% tax= net of 2.25% on the float... b. the assumption has been made that the whole 5000 is flowing then you actually estimate it at 55%. here is my take on it. we are getting 4 paychecks per month,,,2 twice a month so to make it simple, 2500 - mortgage payment of 1199.10 on 1st float net of 1300.90.. that floats for the 30 days. then the 2500 floats for the 15 days= an estimate of average float of 1900 for the month.
c. by the way, i started my first mortgage payment on the 1st of december...you show your first payment on the 30th of december, are you factoring you late charges since it is due on the first. there is a 5% payment penalty when you are late on your payment? are you calculating that anywhere. My floating calculations from your spreadsheet leave this alone for now
d. BACK TO THE FLOAT - 1900/5000=38% float -100 =62% float efficiency. e. now we have to figure the interest based on this percentage...if we change the interest rate on the HELOC, it will skew the numbers when money is actually being takin out of the HELOC at 7% (20,350) so this is how i figured it- 7% heloc.... 2.25% net on checking account which is 32% of the gross of 7%. we have a 38% float x 32% = 12.16% float - 100 = 87.84% efficiency float.
e. it seems that something is messsed up on 7 8 and 9. 7 & 8 seem to go together more than 7 and 9. 9 is a result that is on it's own after 7 & 8 are completed for 19 months. when looking at the amounts going to principle on the layout, look at it and tell me what you think, the numbers should not be that far off. also verify we have the correct expenses
since 7-8-9 have to be adjusted,,,i will only show the 1st 6 scenarios with the new efficiency rate of 87.84% below:
MMA PAYOFF 1. PAY RAISE OF $50 BIWEEKLY - PAYOFF - 6.667 YRS 8/20142. SAVE $150 MO IN BUDGET - PAYOFF - 6.25 YRS 3/20143. SPEND $900 FRO 8.5 MO - PAYOFF - 6.583 YRS 7/20144. DEPOSIT 3500 - PAYOFF - 6.417 YRS 5/2014 5. SPEND 20,350 FROM EQUITY - PAYOFF - 7.167 YRS 2/2015 TRUE COST IS $28,084 6. BUY CAR-12K PAY MO. PAYMENT PAYOFF - 7.583 YRS 7/2015
summary:
MMA BETTER THAN DYI with 87.840 float efficiency rate 1. 24 mo x 2991 = $71,784 2. 20 mo x 2991 = $59,820 3. 16 mo x 2991 = $47,856 4. 13 mo x 2991 = $38,883 5. 4 mo x 2991 = $11,964 6. 4 mo x 2991 = $11,964
REMEMBER - THE 3500 WAS TAKEN OUT OF HELOC ON MMA AND DYI PLACED IT AGAINST THE 1ST MORTGAE OUT OF THE GATE If i am not correct in these changes, please inform me of your thoughts on my logic and statements
IF THESE NUMBERS ARE CORRECT, THEM MY BELEIF THAT THE DIFFERENCE IS IN THE LEVERAGE HAS MERIT.
THE GREAT SERVICE THAT ANTHONY HAS PROVIDED ALL OF US IS THE ABILITY TO PUT IN THESE CHANGES ON HIS SPREADSHEET OURSELVES, PLUS THE ADDITION OF THE FLOAT EFFICIENCY FACTOR
anthonyu said: UFF Results:: MONEY MERGE ACCOUNT START PAYOFF PERIOD 6.75 YEARS SCENARIO PAYOFF 1. PAY RAISE OF $50 BIWEEKLY - PAYOFF - 6.667 YRS 8/2014 2. SAVE $150 MO IN BUDGET - PAYOFF - 6.25 YRS 3/2014 3. SPEND $900 FRO 8.5 MO - PAYOFF - 6.583 YRS 7/2014 4. DEPOSIT 3500 - PAYOFF - 6.417 YRS 5/2014 5. SPEND 20,350 FROM EQUITY - PAYOFF - 7.167 YRS 2/2015 TRUE COST IS $28,084 6. BUY CAR-12K PAY MO. PAYMENT PAYOFF - 7.583 YRS 7/2015 7. LOSE JOB OF BIWEEKLY ---------- OUT OF MONEY IN 35 MONTHS FROM EQUITY LINE 8. SAVE $500/MO IN CHILD CARE PAYOFF - 20.667 YRS 8/2028 9 NEW BIWEEKLY JOB - PAYOFF - 10.583 YRS 7/2018 10 RUN HELOC AT 18% FROM DAY ONE PAYOFF - 11.167 YRS 2/2019
DIY Results: Base: 5/2014 (6.5 years) 1. 2/2014 (6.25 years) 2. 10/2013 (5.917 years) 3. 2/2014 (6.25 years) 4. 12/2013 (6.08 years) 5. 8/2014 (6.75 years) 6. 1/2015 (7.167 years) 9. 4/2016 (8.417 years) (7, 8 and 9 are related scenarios.) 10. 5/2016. Note that my simulation did not get affected that much by the HELOC rate increase to 18% because I used HELOC for emergency purposes only. Total HELOC interest incurred (Cell T7, non-compounded) increased from 557.23 to 1487.94 but you are still able to pay off the loan at the same month.
Summary: The DIY approach had a .25 year (3 months) advantage to begin with because of the $3500 software cost. From scenarios 1 to 6,the DIY approach remained between .20 to .40 year advantage (~2 to 4 months). This is to be expected since we're supposedly running the same scenarios, therefore similar results. The variance of +/- 1 month between the scenarios would be due to the fact that the loan could be paid off in month x, but in certain instances there is some balance left causing the other scenario to finish the following month.
Our end result after scenario 9 are quite different, so we would have to look into that. As mentioned above, the DIY approach did not get affected by the HELOC rate change (Scenario 10).
JHB, I do not need to see your software as we have produced similar results (except maybe for 7, 8, 9 where you end much later). If you disagree on the result in any scenario, investigate the spreadsheet. I display ALL the data monthly. If you think I entered the wrong payment scenario (incorrect start or end month, incorrect amount), go ahead and change it and click on Calculate. It should give you the payoff date.
james, give up while you are woefully behind. each reply only gets you further behind.
1. funny you tell anthony that he made mortgage payments on the wrong date. you did the same thing on the 5 line simple scenario, you know, the one you still haven't gotten right.
2. MMA mathematically CANNOT come ahead with real world numbers, no matter how many changes you throw at it. Anything that helps MMA helps DIY more.
3. you keep harping on HELOC rates being higher than savings rates, so you save more. Under that reasoning, 10000000000% HELOCs should save you even more. You PAY HELOC interest, you EARN savings interest.
4. There is no "leverage" in MMA. there is minimal timing savings to be had, but no leverage. Leverage is something completely different (like putting 20% down to get an 80% loan). Borrowing money against an asset to pay down the asset isn't leverage, it's basically 3 card monty.
5. If you think you can gain 80 something dollars PER MONTH against DIY, you are smoking something. 80 something cents is more like it. But that's only if it's free. Even though you "pay off the $3500 quickly", the fact remains that you will always be $3500 behind DIY, so that's interest on $3500 extra you have to continually pay until you are done. interest on $3500 @6% is $17 per month. again, yes the fee is paid off quickly, but you will ALWAYS be $3500 plus interest behind. and the interest compounds. that's why the fee is so ridiculous, it dwarfs and savings from float.
again, quit while you are behind. you seemed like you didn't know much about how this works when you first arrived, you have only fallen since then.
IN YOUR OWN WORDS !!!!!! WHY DON'T YOU LET ANTHONY BE THE EXPERT HERE...EVERYONE ELSE HAS GIVEN JUST LIP SERVICE... HE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS DONME THE WORK..AND YOU ALL ADMIT IT SO SHUT UP LIKE YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO...OR CAN YOU DO THAT WITH YOU LITTLE D--K SYNDROME? EricGo07 said: AnthonyU is setting this game up to be played honestly. Kudos.
I'm happy to watch from the sideline, but I keep wondering on what basis Jhb thinks any one scenario is better for UFF than another. He has always been welcome to pick a scenario that is *the most* complimentary to UFF, since all of us here think there is no such thing. The advantage of course would be less chance of an apples to oranges comparison.
Pardon my presumption, but now that I have spent a few minutes with spreadsheets, I wonder if it would be better to make a separate page for each scenario, but with each succesive sheet dependent on the one before it. That way Jhb could easily see what changes were required for each new scenario, and I'd guess corrections would be easier.
The HELOC cost comes from your account statement. Don't make *any* assumptions here. If you do not have a bank statement then go back and calculate the average daily balance over the seven months you have data for. Your guesses as to float efficiency are worthless. In fact as I wrote earlier, you will find that UFF does a piss poor job of managing the HELOC.
I though a bit more about the HELOC ADB I calculated and posted. I think it is incorrect and overestimated the correct balance by up to 10% because of an error I made in counting days. E.g, if a HELOC balance exists from 12/1 - 12/10, how many days should be counted ? I used 10, but a consistent convention has to be applied such as end of day accrual that I may not have been consistent about. I won't be surprised if the correct ADB from your UFF data is closer to $8000 and not the $8607 I calculated. This will knock down the monthly HELOC interest from the $50 I calculated to about $46.5. Obviously a minor error in contrast to the overall cost of UFF use.
I'm actually a bit sorry that AnthonyU decided to set up a DIY merge account rather than a savings account. I presume part of his reason had to do with complying with the scenario nonsense, but that could have been dealt with by installment loans which actually are a much more common way for people not mired in UFF to acquire and pay off debt.
The 55% came from ACTUAL figures that you and ericgo put in when you were arguing. I did not make this figure up. You both agreed that it was around $40+ to $50+ per month, and that equated to a 55% float.
Let's do this. Since you have the spreadsheet you can do this for yourself. Set the float efficiency at 100%, meaning no salary float at all. Click on Calculate. Total HELOC interest incurred (non-compounded) in Cell T7 for the life of the loan increased from 557.23 in my original post to 1033.21. You're moving ALL my payoff dates back to 2 years more because the float efficiency I used saved me $500 TOTAL for the life of the loan? Are you f'ing nuts? The $500 difference is not even enough to move my payoff date by 1 month!
If the HELOC rate is at 18%, it moves from 1487.94 to 2847.29. At the most, the $1400 difference could move it back by 1 month given that you're making ~$3K payments per month. Compare that to your scenario when it moved from 10.583 years to 11.167 years.
I will break it down for you. This is at 7% HELOC and no salary float at all. You can verify this in cells T30 to T41 and cells T74 to T96.
All HELOC interest incurred as a result of the 20K emergency loan is $676.23. All HELOC interest incurred as a result of losing the job is $356.96.
I'll do this for the sake of argument. When 1 person lost the job, they were drawing $275.50 monthly from the HELOC to cover the deficit. ANY salary deposit will cover the initial $275.50 balance for month 1, meaning minimal interest incurred, if any. I don't care if they return the extra balance to me. The next month, the balance goes to $552 (principal + interest). Again, ANY salary deposit will reduce the interest incurred to minimal. Go ahead and return the extra to me again. I'm actually generous that I put it at 55% because in the initial months, it should be very close to $0 (when it was charging me $1.61 per $275 that I draw, big whooop!). The max that the HELOC balance goes throughout that stage is $5.5K. Average that with the months you were getting almost 0% and you get less than 55%.
So I'll take 100% float and accrue $1033.21 in interest over 7, years. So what's your point???
And don't even go to savings interest rates. My projection is at a 0% checking account. And as I said, put it at no float.
Hahahaha! 5% penalty for missing each loan payment. Now you're desperate. Again, for the sake of argument. In real life, if you got the loan today, you are not expected to make a payment on that same day or on any day of that month until the 1st of the following month. Most loans will force you to pre-pay for that incomplete month and you do not make a payment until 1 more month after. I'm paying it on the 30th, I'm actually 1 day early. And I am not factoring any float at all and not accruing any savings interest, so go pay it any day you want!
Again, I do not have to explain anything to you. You have the spreadsheet. Put in your data and tell me what you get. Do not calculate it by hand or make any stupid assumption that we will pay 5% late fee. Do not add 2 years to the payoff date and think anyone will believe you. Put it in the spreadsheet and click on Calculate. The numbers don't lie. Only MMA agents do.
JamesHughbanks said: now that all of you have bashed me to death because of your arrogance, pride, and just stupidity, the tongue is a wicked thing and those that cannot control it will die by their words...
Let me enlighten you some more:
1. first of all, ANTHONY....you rule!!!!!!!!!!!! I am so happy you are dedicated to the truth of disclosure, good or bad,,,,i really appreciate at least one of you all have some sense,fairness, AND INTEGRITY!!!
2. As I said before, I beleive this has a lot to do about levereage of the Heloc against the first mortgage. With that statement, there is a mAjor flaw in the "efficiency float" assumption of 55%...Here is why:
a. you assume a 7% float efficiency on the money of the DIY.. That is incorrect....you have to be able to have a balance in ther heloc to "float" against... you cannot place the income in the line of credit if there is no balance owed and get 7%...the bank sends you your check back because you do not owe anything on the loan. So what we are stuck with on the float outside the MMA is the guaranteed interest you can receive on the savings/checking account MINUS the tax burden on that (i will assume 25%) Calvin and all the rest said to figure 3% on the checking account float 3% - 25% tax= net of 2.25% on the float... b. the assumption has been made that the whole 5000 is flowing then you actually estimate it at 55%. here is my take on it. we are getting 4 paychecks per month,,,2 twice a month so to make it simple, 2500 - mortgage payment of 1199.10 on 1st float net of 1300.90.. that floats for the 30 days. then the 2500 floats for the 15 days= an estimate of average float of 1900 for the month.
c. by the way, i started my first mortgage payment on the 1st of december...you show your first payment on the 30th of december, are you factoring you late charges since it is due on the first. there is a 5% payment penalty when you are late on your payment? are you calculating that anywhere. My floating calculations from your spreadsheet leave this alone for now
d. BACK TO THE FLOAT - 1900/5000=38% float -100 =62% float efficiency. e. now we have to figure the interest based on this percentage...if we change the interest rate on the HELOC, it will skew the numbers when money is actually being takin out of the HELOC at 7% (20,350) so this is how i figured it- 7% heloc.... 2.25% net on checking account which is 32% of the gross of 7%. we have a 38% float x 32% = 12.16% float - 100 = 87.84% efficiency float.
e. it seems that something is messsed up on 7 8 and 9. 7 & 8 seem to go together more than 7 and 9. 9 is a result that is on it's own after 7 & 8 are completed for 19 months. when looking at the amounts going to principle on the layout, look at it and tell me what you think, the numbers should not be that far off. also verify we have the correct expenses
since 7-8-9 have to be adjusted,,,i will only show the 1st 6 scenarios with the new efficiency rate of 87.84% below:
MMA PAYOFF 1. PAY RAISE OF $50 BIWEEKLY - PAYOFF - 6.667 YRS 8/20142. SAVE $150 MO IN BUDGET - PAYOFF - 6.25 YRS 3/20143. SPEND $900 FRO 8.5 MO - PAYOFF - 6.583 YRS 7/20144. DEPOSIT 3500 - PAYOFF - 6.417 YRS 5/2014 5. SPEND 20,350 FROM EQUITY - PAYOFF - 7.167 YRS 2/2015 TRUE COST IS $28,084 6. BUY CAR-12K PAY MO. PAYMENT PAYOFF - 7.583 YRS 7/2015
summary:
MMA BETTER THAN DYI with 87.840 float efficiency rate 1. 24 mo x 2991 = $71,784 2. 20 mo x 2991 = $59,820 3. 16 mo x 2991 = $47,856 4. 13 mo x 2991 = $38,883 5. 4 mo x 2991 = $11,964 6. 4 mo x 2991 = $11,964
REMEMBER - THE 3500 WAS TAKEN OUT OF HELOC ON MMA AND DYI PLACED IT AGAINST THE 1ST MORTGAE OUT OF THE GATE If i am not correct in these changes, please inform me of your thoughts on my logic and statements
IF THESE NUMBERS ARE CORRECT, THEM MY BELEIF THAT THE DIFFERENCE IS IN THE LEVERAGE HAS MERIT.
THE GREAT SERVICE THAT ANTHONY HAS PROVIDED ALL OF US IS THE ABILITY TO PUT IN THESE CHANGES ON HIS SPREADSHEET OURSELVES, PLUS THE ADDITION OF THE FLOAT EFFICIENCY FACTOR
anthonyu said: UFF Results:: MONEY MERGE ACCOUNT START PAYOFF PERIOD 6.75 YEARS SCENARIO PAYOFF 1. PAY RAISE OF $50 BIWEEKLY - PAYOFF - 6.667 YRS 8/2014 2. SAVE $150 MO IN BUDGET - PAYOFF - 6.25 YRS 3/2014 3. SPEND $900 FRO 8.5 MO - PAYOFF - 6.583 YRS 7/2014 4. DEPOSIT 3500 - PAYOFF - 6.417 YRS 5/2014 5. SPEND 20,350 FROM EQUITY - PAYOFF - 7.167 YRS 2/2015 TRUE COST IS $28,084 6. BUY CAR-12K PAY MO. PAYMENT PAYOFF - 7.583 YRS 7/2015 7. LOSE JOB OF BIWEEKLY ---------- OUT OF MONEY IN 35 MONTHS FROM EQUITY LINE 8. SAVE $500/MO IN CHILD CARE PAYOFF - 20.667 YRS 8/2028 9 NEW BIWEEKLY JOB - PAYOFF - 10.583 YRS 7/2018 10 RUN HELOC AT 18% FROM DAY ONE PAYOFF - 11.167 YRS 2/2019
DIY Results: Base: 5/2014 (6.5 years) 1. 2/2014 (6.25 years) 2. 10/2013 (5.917 years) 3. 2/2014 (6.25 years) 4. 12/2013 (6.08 years) 5. 8/2014 (6.75 years) 6. 1/2015 (7.167 years) 9. 4/2016 (8.417 years) (7, 8 and 9 are related scenarios.) 10. 5/2016. Note that my simulation did not get affected that much by the HELOC rate increase to 18% because I used HELOC for emergency purposes only. Total HELOC interest incurred (Cell T7, non-compounded) increased from 557.23 to 1487.94 but you are still able to pay off the loan at the same month.
Summary: The DIY approach had a .25 year (3 months) advantage to begin with because of the $3500 software cost. From scenarios 1 to 6,the DIY approach remained between .20 to .40 year advantage (~2 to 4 months). This is to be expected since we're supposedly running the same scenarios, therefore similar results. The variance of +/- 1 month between the scenarios would be due to the fact that the loan could be paid off in month x, but in certain instances there is some balance left causing the other scenario to finish the following month.
Our end result after scenario 9 are quite different, so we would have to look into that. As mentioned above, the DIY approach did not get affected by the HELOC rate change (Scenario 10).
JHB, I do not need to see your software as we have produced similar results (except maybe for 7, 8, 9 where you end much later). If you disagree on the result in any scenario, investigate the spreadsheet. I display ALL the data monthly. If you think I entered the wrong payment scenario (incorrect start or end month, incorrect amount), go ahead and change it and click on Calculate. It should give you the payoff date.
anthonyu said: First of all, thanks for the compliment.
Secondly, WTF are you talking about???
The 55% came from ACTUAL figures that you and ericgo put in when you were arguing. I did not make this figure up. You both agreed that it was around $40+ to $50+ per month, and that equated to a 55% float.
Let's do this. Since you have the spreadsheet you can do this for yourself. Set the float efficiency at 100%, meaning no salary float at all. Click on Calculate. Total HELOC interest incurred (non-compounded) in Cell T7 for the life of the loan increased from 557.23 in my original post to 1033.21. You're moving ALL my payoff dates back to 2 years more because the float efficiency I used saved me $500 TOTAL for the life of the loan? Are you f'ing nuts? The $500 difference is not even enough to move my payoff date by 1 month!
If the HELOC rate is at 18%, it moves from 1487.94 to 2847.29. At the most, the $1400 difference could move it back by 1 month given that you're making ~$3K payments per month. Compare that to your scenario when it moved from 10.583 years to 11.167 years.
I will break it down for you. This is at 7% HELOC and no salary float at all. You can verify this in cells T30 to T41 and cells T74 to T96.
All HELOC interest incurred as a result of the 20K emergency loan is $676.23. All HELOC interest incurred as a result of losing the job is $356.96.
I'll do this for the sake of argument. When 1 person lost the job, they were drawing $275.50 monthly from the HELOC to cover the deficit. ANY salary deposit will cover the initial $275.50 balance for month 1, meaning minimal interest incurred, if any. I don't care if they return the extra balance to me. The next month, the balance goes to $552 (principal + interest). Again, ANY salary deposit will reduce the interest incurred to minimal. Go ahead and return the extra to me again. I'm actually generous that I put it at 55% because in the initial months, it should be very close to $0 (when it was charging me $1.61 per $275 that I draw, big whooop!). The max that the HELOC balance goes throughout that stage is $5.5K. Average that with the months you were getting almost 0% and you get less than 55%.
So I'll take 100% float and accrue $1033.21 in interest over 7, years. So what's your point???
And don't even go to savings interest rates. My projection is at a 0% checking account. And as I said, put it at no float.
Hahahaha! 5% penalty for missing each loan payment. Now you're desperate. Again, for the sake of argument. In real life, if you got the loan today, you are not expected to make a payment on that same day or on any day of that month until the 1st of the following month. Most loans will force you to pre-pay for that incomplete month and you do not make a payment until 1 more month after. I'm paying it on the 30th, I'm actually 1 day early. And I am not factoring any float at all, so go pay it any day you want!
Again, I do not have to explain anything to you. You have the spreadsheet. Put in your data and tell me what you get. Do not calculate it by hand or make any stupid assumption that we will pay 5% late fee. Do not add 2 years to the payoff date and think anyone will believe you. Put it in the spreadsheet and click on Calculate. The numbers don't lie. Only MMA agents do.
JamesHughbanks said: now that all of you have bashed me to death because of your arrogance, pride, and just stupidity, the tongue is a wicked thing and those that cannot control it will die by their words...
Let me enlighten you some more:
1. first of all, ANTHONY....you rule!!!!!!!!!!!! I am so happy you are dedicated to the truth of disclosure, good or bad,,,,i really appreciate at least one of you all have some sense,fairness, AND INTEGRITY!!!
2. As I said before, I beleive this has a lot to do about levereage of the Heloc against the first mortgage. With that statement, there is a mAjor flaw in the "efficiency float" assumption of 55%...Here is why:
a. you assume a 7% float efficiency on the money of the DIY.. That is incorrect....you have to be able to have a balance in ther heloc to "float" against... you cannot place the income in the line of credit if there is no balance owed and get 7%...the bank sends you your check back because you do not owe anything on the loan. So what we are stuck with on the float outside the MMA is the guaranteed interest you can receive on the savings/checking account MINUS the tax burden on that (i will assume 25%) Calvin and all the rest said to figure 3% on the checking account float 3% - 25% tax= net of 2.25% on the float... b. the assumption has been made that the whole 5000 is flowing then you actually estimate it at 55%. here is my take on it. we are getting 4 paychecks per month,,,2 twice a month so to make it simple, 2500 - mortgage payment of 1199.10 on 1st float net of 1300.90.. that floats for the 30 days. then the 2500 floats for the 15 days= an estimate of average float of 1900 for the month.
c. by the way, i started my first mortgage payment on the 1st of december...you show your first payment on the 30th of december, are you factoring you late charges since it is due on the first. there is a 5% payment penalty when you are late on your payment? are you calculating that anywhere. My floating calculations from your spreadsheet leave this alone for now
d. BACK TO THE FLOAT - 1900/5000=38% float -100 =62% float efficiency. e. now we have to figure the interest based on this percentage...if we change the interest rate on the HELOC, it will skew the numbers when money is actually being takin out of the HELOC at 7% (20,350) so this is how i figured it- 7% heloc.... 2.25% net on checking account which is 32% of the gross of 7%. we have a 38% float x 32% = 12.16% float - 100 = 87.84% efficiency float.
e. it seems that something is messsed up on 7 8 and 9. 7 & 8 seem to go together more than 7 and 9. 9 is a result that is on it's own after 7 & 8 are completed for 19 months. when looking at the amounts going to principle on the layout, look at it and tell me what you think, the numbers should not be that far off. also verify we have the correct expenses
since 7-8-9 have to be adjusted,,,i will only show the 1st 6 scenarios with the new efficiency rate of 87.84% below:
MMA PAYOFF 1. PAY RAISE OF $50 BIWEEKLY - PAYOFF - 6.667 YRS 8/20142. SAVE $150 MO IN BUDGET - PAYOFF - 6.25 YRS 3/20143. SPEND $900 FRO 8.5 MO - PAYOFF - 6.583 YRS 7/20144. DEPOSIT 3500 - PAYOFF - 6.417 YRS 5/2014 5. SPEND 20,350 FROM EQUITY - PAYOFF - 7.167 YRS 2/2015 TRUE COST IS $28,084 6. BUY CAR-12K PAY MO. PAYMENT PAYOFF - 7.583 YRS 7/2015
summary:
MMA BETTER THAN DYI with 87.840 float efficiency rate 1. 24 mo x 2991 = $71,784 2. 20 mo x 2991 = $59,820 3. 16 mo x 2991 = $47,856 4. 13 mo x 2991 = $38,883 5. 4 mo x 2991 = $11,964 6. 4 mo x 2991 = $11,964
REMEMBER - THE 3500 WAS TAKEN OUT OF HELOC ON MMA AND DYI PLACED IT AGAINST THE 1ST MORTGAE OUT OF THE GATE If i am not correct in these changes, please inform me of your thoughts on my logic and statements
IF THESE NUMBERS ARE CORRECT, THEM MY BELEIF THAT THE DIFFERENCE IS IN THE LEVERAGE HAS MERIT.
THE GREAT SERVICE THAT ANTHONY HAS PROVIDED ALL OF US IS THE ABILITY TO PUT IN THESE CHANGES ON HIS SPREADSHEET OURSELVES, PLUS THE ADDITION OF THE FLOAT EFFICIENCY FACTOR
anthonyu said: UFF Results:: MONEY MERGE ACCOUNT START PAYOFF PERIOD 6.75 YEARS SCENARIO PAYOFF 1. PAY RAISE OF $50 BIWEEKLY - PAYOFF - 6.667 YRS 8/2014 2. SAVE $150 MO IN BUDGET - PAYOFF - 6.25 YRS 3/2014 3. SPEND $900 FRO 8.5 MO - PAYOFF - 6.583 YRS 7/2014 4. DEPOSIT 3500 - PAYOFF - 6.417 YRS 5/2014 5. SPEND 20,350 FROM EQUITY - PAYOFF - 7.167 YRS 2/2015 TRUE COST IS $28,084 6. BUY CAR-12K PAY MO. PAYMENT PAYOFF - 7.583 YRS 7/2015 7. LOSE JOB OF BIWEEKLY ---------- OUT OF MONEY IN 35 MONTHS FROM EQUITY LINE 8. SAVE $500/MO IN CHILD CARE PAYOFF - 20.667 YRS 8/2028 9 NEW BIWEEKLY JOB - PAYOFF - 10.583 YRS 7/2018 10 RUN HELOC AT 18% FROM DAY ONE PAYOFF - 11.167 YRS 2/2019
DIY Results: Base: 5/2014 (6.5 years) 1. 2/2014 (6.25 years) 2. 10/2013 (5.917 years) 3. 2/2014 (6.25 years) 4. 12/2013 (6.08 years) 5. 8/2014 (6.75 years) 6. 1/2015 (7.167 years) 9. 4/2016 (8.417 years) (7, 8 and 9 are related scenarios.) 10. 5/2016. Note that my simulation did not get affected that much by the HELOC rate increase to 18% because I used HELOC for emergency purposes only. Total HELOC interest incurred (Cell T7, non-compounded) increased from 557.23 to 1487.94 but you are still able to pay off the loan at the same month.
Summary: The DIY approach had a .25 year (3 months) advantage to begin with because of the $3500 software cost. From scenarios 1 to 6,the DIY approach remained between .20 to .40 year advantage (~2 to 4 months). This is to be expected since we're supposedly running the same scenarios, therefore similar results. The variance of +/- 1 month between the scenarios would be due to the fact that the loan could be paid off in month x, but in certain instances there is some balance left causing the other scenario to finish the following month.
Our end result after scenario 9 are quite different, so we would have to look into that. As mentioned above, the DIY approach did not get affected by the HELOC rate change (Scenario 10).
JHB, I do not need to see your software as we have produced similar results (except maybe for 7, 8, 9 where you end much later). If you disagree on the result in any scenario, investigate the spreadsheet. I display ALL the data monthly. If you think I entered the wrong payment scenario (incorrect start or end month, incorrect amount), go ahead and change it and click on Calculate. It should give you the payoff date.
JamesHughbanks said: i put in the 100% float efficiency and here are your numbers. do it yourself and see
Did you click on Calculate? lol
That's there for a reason...to Calculate. Click it and see what happens.
If you don't click on Calculate, it's like using a demo version with the calendar glitch. It gives bogus payoff dates. Even that feature I was able to copy from the UFF software.
this is what i did. 1. uncheck box 1 and left all others checked. put 3in the box requested, set box and then hit calculate...went to column d and wrote down the date next to scenario 1. did i do it right or wrong?
i repeated that step for each scenario
anthonyu said: JamesHughbanks said: i put in the 100% float efficiency and here are your numbers. do it yourself and see
Confirm that this is what you're doing. Start with the spreadsheet the way I uploaded it.
1. Change the float % to 100%. 2. Unclick everything else but Apply Scenario 1. 3. Click on Calculate. 4. Check Payoff Date.
1. Click on Apply Scenario 2. 2. Click on Calculate. 3. Check Payoff Date.
1. Click on Apply Scenario 3. 2. Click on Calculate. 3. Check Payoff Date.
etc.
JamesHughbanks said: yes i did.
this is what i did. 1. uncheck box 1 and left all others checked. put 3in the box requested, set box and then hit calculate...went to column d and wrote down the date next to scenario 1. did i do it right or wrong?
i repeated that step for each scenario
anthonyu said: JamesHughbanks said: i put in the 100% float efficiency and here are your numbers. do it yourself and see
I think I know what he is up to now. Because UFF can't beat the DIY numbers, he is trying to show us how "complex" this spreadsheet is. Because he can't use it he will say no average user can use it, therefore giving credence to the $3500 being money well spent on UFF crapware. This shill is toast, but he just won't give up. If nothing else, he is determined.
also, as i said before, the interest on the HELOC IS figured in the software numbers for the life of the loan...so if your eficiency level is actually based on a heloc payment, you double up on me. i thought your float efficiency was for the benefit of the money float being credited on the DYI side of the equation..sorry if i misunderstood it's purpose iJamesHughbanks said: yes i did.
this is what i did. 1. uncheck box 1 and left all others checked. put 3in the box requested, set box and then hit calculate...went to column d and wrote down the date next to scenario 1. did i do it right or wrong?
i repeated that step for each scenario
anthonyu said: JamesHughbanks said: i put in the 100% float efficiency and here are your numbers. do it yourself and see
JamesHughbanks said: also, as i said before, the interest on the HELOC IS figured in the software numbers for the life of the loan...so if your eficiency level is actually based on a heloc payment, you double up on me. i thought your float efficiency was for the benefit of the money float being credited on the DYI side of the equation..sorry if i misunderstood it's purpose iJamesHughbanks said: yes i did.
this is what i did. 1. uncheck box 1 and left all others checked. put 3in the box requested, set box and then hit calculate...went to column d and wrote down the date next to scenario 1. did i do it right or wrong?
i repeated that step for each scenario
anthonyu said: JamesHughbanks said: i put in the 100% float efficiency and here are your numbers. do it yourself and see
should i unclick the ones that have been completed or leave them checked? anthonyu said: Confirm that this is what you're doing. Start with the spreadsheet the way I uploaded it.
1. Change the float % to 100%. 2. Unclick everything else but Apply Scenario 1. 3. Click on Calculate. 4. Check Payoff Date.
1. Click on Apply Scenario 2. 2. Click on Calculate. 3. Check Payoff Date.
1. Click on Apply Scenario 3. 2. Click on Calculate. 3. Check Payoff Date.
etc.
JamesHughbanks said: yes i did.
this is what i did. 1. uncheck box 1 and left all others checked. put 3in the box requested, set box and then hit calculate...went to column d and wrote down the date next to scenario 1. did i do it right or wrong?
i repeated that step for each scenario
anthonyu said: JamesHughbanks said: i put in the 100% float efficiency and here are your numbers. do it yourself and see
Since your scenarios are dependent on the previous scenarios, you have to keep the previous scenarios checked.
JamesHughbanks said: should i unclick the ones that have been completed or leave them checked? anthonyu said: Confirm that this is what you're doing. Start with the spreadsheet the way I uploaded it.
1. Change the float % to 100%. 2. Unclick everything else but Apply Scenario 1. 3. Click on Calculate. 4. Check Payoff Date.
1. Click on Apply Scenario 2. 2. Click on Calculate. 3. Check Payoff Date.
1. Click on Apply Scenario 3. 2. Click on Calculate. 3. Check Payoff Date.
I'm guessing your scenario option check boxes are filling in cells ? If you do not have the equivalent of a reset button funny results are going to pop up as Jhb goes back and forth between the scenarios. Second, using the UFF HELOC 'effficiency' in the DIY does not make sense. A monthly HELOC interest rate charge based on ADB and HELOC rate or interest charge makes sense to me.
Jhb, I can understand your sensitivity. You will feel better after you return the money you scammed and get a real job.
Agreed. The first thing Calculate does is reset the cells based on current parameters, then loads your scenarios. If you change your loan settings or your scenarios and do not click Calculate, some formulas could be using the older parameters.
EricGo07 said: Anthony,
I'm guessing your scenario option check boxes are filling in cells ? If you do not have the equivalent of a reset button funny results are going to pop up as Jhb goes back and forth between the scenarios.
Jhb, I can understand your sensitivity. You will feel better after you return the money you scammed and get a real job.
i have done that and come out with figures that show mma a few momnths behind consistantly...one thing i am tryong to understand on the spreadsheet and your payoffs makes me think your formula's or entry are wrong. in scenario 2 you place the $150) against expenses...in scenario three the $900 is showing positive number..when i look at your payoff, from scenario 2 is 2/2014...then scenario three is where we take out $900 per month for 10.5 months...as you all say, numbers don't lie,,,answer me this, how come the payoff period goes DOWN from scenario 2 at 2/2014 to scenario three at 10/2013 ( that's paying off quicker by 4 months....when we are spending 900 per month more out of our budget and have less money left over to pay for the mortgage.... it is impossible!
I beleive all of your scenarios that have money coming out monthly should be in red not blue...can you expalin this discrepency?
anthonyu said: Agreed. The first thing Calculate does is reset the cells based on current parameters, then loads your scenarios. If you change your loan settings or your scenarios and do not click Calculate, some formulas could be using the older parameters.
EricGo07 said: Anthony,
I'm guessing your scenario option check boxes are filling in cells ? If you do not have the equivalent of a reset button funny results are going to pop up as Jhb goes back and forth between the scenarios.
Jhb, I can understand your sensitivity. You will feel better after you return the money you scammed and get a real job.
i have done that and come out with figures that show mma a few momnths behind consistantly...one thing i am tryong to understand on the spreadsheet and your payoffs makes me think your formula's or entry are wrong. in scenario 2 you place the $150) against expenses...in scenario three the $900 is showing positive number..when i look at your payoff, from scenario 2 is 2/2014...then scenario three is where we take out $900 per month for 10.5 months...as you all say, numbers don't lie,,,answer me this, how come the payoff period goes DOWN from scenario 2 at 2/2014 to scenario three at 10/2013 ( that's paying off quicker by 4 months....when we are spending 900 per month more out of our budget and have less money left over to pay for the mortgage.... it is impossible!
I beleive all of your scenarios that have money coming out monthly should be in red not blue...can you expalin this discrepancy? anthonyu said: Agreed. The first thing Calculate does is reset the cells based on current parameters, then loads your scenarios. If you change your loan settings or your scenarios and do not click Calculate, some formulas could be using the older parameters.
EricGo07 said: Anthony,
I'm guessing your scenario option check boxes are filling in cells ? If you do not have the equivalent of a reset button funny results are going to pop up as Jhb goes back and forth between the scenarios.
Jhb, I can understand your sensitivity. You will feel better after you return the money you scammed and get a real job.
Check the post where I showed the DIY results again. You have it backwards.
2. 10/2013 (5.917 years) 3. 2/2014 (6.25 years) It added 4 months from 2 to 3, in the same way that yours went from 3/2014 to 7/2014.
If you know accounting (which I know little of), you'll understand why Scenario 2 is -150 expense and Scenario 3 is 900 expense. Let's start with Scenario 3, you are spending $900 more per month, so no question there. For scenario 2, you said: "THE 150 SAVINGS IN THE BUDGET IS GOING INTO DICRETIONARY ON MY END..SO TO MAKE IT THE SAME ON YOURS...PLACE THE 150 AS A PRINCIPAL PAYMENT." What budget? The budget is based on my income and my expense. Did your income increase by $150? No. So it means somehow your expenses decreased by $150 giving you more money to pre-pay. That's why it's -150 expenses. That is exactly what I clarified with you just before I posted my spreadsheet and I said here: Scenario 2: So when you said "accommodate a savings of $150/mo permanently", you did not mean that the person will be putting away an additional $150 into a savings account, you actually meant that their expenses are now less by $150 and you'll put this amount into the mortgage. We're now clear on that.
In accounting terms, money does not magically come out of nowhere. When you say increase in budget, it did not mean that they have all of a sudden $150 more left over every month. If it is, you have to tell me where that $150 came from. If it's not due to increased income, it must be due to decreased expense. It has to show up on both sides of the ledger.
Regarding the red for negative, that is how most spreadsheet works. Don't ask me why. I did not make these formatting conventions. That's what people mean when they say "the Company is in the red". And incidentally, that is why we have "Black Friday" on the day after Thanksgiving, because that is usually the time of the year when a Company goes from "in the red" to "black", meaning they now have positive net income. I just changed the font to blue to distinguish that blue = you can enter your data here vs. black = this is a formula or something you cannot change.
Now you know. You hang around FWF, you learn a lot of things.
JamesHughbanks said: i have done that and come out with figures that show mma a few momnths behind consistantly...one thing i am tryong to understand on the spreadsheet and your payoffs makes me think your formula's or entry are wrong. in scenario 2 you place the $150) against expenses...in scenario three the $900 is showing positive number..when i look at your payoff, from scenario 2 is 2/2014...then scenario three is where we take out $900 per month for 10.5 months...as you all say, numbers don't lie,,,answer me this, how come the payoff period goes DOWN from scenario 2 at 2/2014 to scenario three at 10/2013 ( that's paying off quicker by 4 months....when we are spending 900 per month more out of our budget and have less money left over to pay for the mortgage.... it is impossible!
I beleive all of your scenarios that have money coming out monthly should be in red not blue...can you expalin this discrepency?
anthonyu said: Agreed. The first thing Calculate does is reset the cells based on current parameters, then loads your scenarios. If you change your loan settings or your scenarios and do not click Calculate, some formulas could be using the older parameters.
EricGo07 said: Anthony,
I'm guessing your scenario option check boxes are filling in cells ? If you do not have the equivalent of a reset button funny results are going to pop up as Jhb goes back and forth between the scenarios.
Jhb, I can understand your sensitivity. You will feel better after you return the money you scammed and get a real job.
I fired up the spreadsheet for the first time a couple of hours ago, but can still answer your question.
The scenario amounts are applied the the INCOME OR EXPENSE category selected. In other words, a negative (red) amount against EXPENSE, DECREASES EXPENSE. A negative (red) amount against INCOME, DECREASES INCOME. A blue amount against EXPENSE OR INCOME INCREASES those items.
It is clearly illustrated if you look at the Income and expenses to the right of the Scenarios.
As far as the payoff dates, you are counting incorrectly.
The BASE SCENARIO is with NO SCENARIO Check marks.
Scenario 1 is with the first check mark. Scenario 2 is with the first and second check mark, etc. ... ...
JamesHughbanks said: i have done that and come out with figures that show mma a few momnths behind consistantly...one thing i am tryong to understand on the spreadsheet and your payoffs makes me think your formula's or entry are wrong. in scenario 2 you place the $150) against expenses...in scenario three the $900 is showing positive number..when i look at your payoff, from scenario 2 is 2/2014...then scenario three is where we take out $900 per month for 10.5 months...as you all say, numbers don't lie,,,answer me this, how come the payoff period goes DOWN from scenario 2 at 2/2014 to scenario three at 10/2013 ( that's paying off quicker by 4 months....when we are spending 900 per month more out of our budget and have less money left over to pay for the mortgage.... it is impossible!
I beleive all of your scenarios that have money coming out monthly should be in red not blue...can you expalin this discrepency?
okanthonyu said: Check the post where I showed the DIY results again. You have it backwards.
2. 10/2013 (5.917 years) 3. 2/2014 (6.25 years) It added 4 months from 2 to 3, in the same way that yours went from 3/2014 to 7/2014.
If you know a accounting (which I know little of), you'll understand why Scenario 2 is -150 expense and Scenario 3 is 900 expense. Let's start with Scenario 3, you are spending $900 more per month, so no question there. For scenario 2, you said: "THE 150 SAVINGS IN THE BUDGET IS GOING INTO DICRETIONARY ON MY END..SO TO MAKE IT THE SAME ON YOURS...PLACE THE 150 AS A PRINCIPAL PAYMENT." What budget? The budget is based on my income and my expense. Did your income increase by $150? No. So it means somehow your expenses decreased by $150 giving you more money to pre-pay. That's why it's -150 expenses. That is exactly what I clarified with you just before I posted my spreadsheet and I said here: Scenario 2: So when you said "accommodate a savings of $150/mo permanently", you did not mean that the person will be putting away an additional $150 into a savings account, you actually meant that their expenses are now less by $150 and you'll put this amount into the mortgage. We're now clear on that.
In accounting terms, money does not magically come out of nowhere. When you say increase in budget, it did not mean that they have all of a sudden $150 more left over every month. If it is, you have to tell me where that $150 came from. If it's not due to increased income, it must be due to decreased expense. It has to show up on both sides of the ledger.
Regarding the red for negative, that is how most spreadsheet works. Don't ask me why. I did not make these formatting conventions. That's what people mean when they say "the Company is in the red". And incidentally, that is why we have "Black Friday" on the day after Thanksgiving, because that is usually the time of the year when a Company goes from "in the red" to "black", meaning they now have positive net income. I just changed the font to blue to distinguish that blue = you can enter your data here vs. black = this is a formula or something you cannot change.
Now you know. You hang around FWF, you learn a lot of things.
JamesHughbanks said: i have done that and come out with figures that show mma a few momnths behind consistantly...one thing i am tryong to understand on the spreadsheet and your payoffs makes me think your formula's or entry are wrong. in scenario 2 you place the $150) against expenses...in scenario three the $900 is showing positive number..when i look at your payoff, from scenario 2 is 2/2014...then scenario three is where we take out $900 per month for 10.5 months...as you all say, numbers don't lie,,,answer me this, how come the payoff period goes DOWN from scenario 2 at 2/2014 to scenario three at 10/2013 ( that's paying off quicker by 4 months....when we are spending 900 per month more out of our budget and have less money left over to pay for the mortgage.... it is impossible!
I beleive all of your scenarios that have money coming out monthly should be in red not blue...can you expalin this discrepency?
anthonyu said: Agreed. The first thing Calculate does is reset the cells based on current parameters, then loads your scenarios. If you change your loan settings or your scenarios and do not click Calculate, some formulas could be using the older parameters.
EricGo07 said: Anthony,
I'm guessing your scenario option check boxes are filling in cells ? If you do not have the equivalent of a reset button funny results are going to pop up as Jhb goes back and forth between the scenarios.
Jhb, I can understand your sensitivity. You will feel better after you return the money you scammed and get a real job.
1. it apprears that the DYI scenario with the UFF show a few months behind from the start date since the 3500 is spent on the software and 3500 is going to the pay down on DYI.
2. Will I offer my clients a refund?...I will tell them what this excercise has accomplished and the results and offer them it...if they take it, it is up to them... if they see value in what it has done for them and beleives it is worth it...it will be their call, not mine.
3. If I decide to continue with UFF, i will be disclosing that a person can do this on their own if they are disiplined enough to continue to do it. I will also offer them the options and advantages that the UFF system offers: ease of use, do not have to know how to operate a detailed spreadsheet, the ability to maintain their standard of living by using a heloc or LOC to cover discrepencies in their up and down financial life, being able to see and learn the future ramifications of their financial actions today. The ability to make current buying decisions on the true cost of a purchase. A spreadsheet does not offer that, they will be able to get coaching from home office from 8am to 12am 5 days a week for free for the rest of their life along with their own 128 bit incripted web site for free, they will be able to get free software updates for life (4 new products coming out in June.
4. Since a mass percentage of the public never will or ever has made additional deposits into the first mortgage, i will continue to strive to give them solutions that motivate them to do that. Just like the post that was in the thread,,,hardley any of you are paying your mortgages off esarly even though you know how...why? because you don't want to take that money and throw it down a one way street If it is done through an equity line so they don't continue to spend their discretionary and waste it away like most americans, then it will help them because that discretionary is availble as a safety net through their line of credit. the beauty about the software is it does not wave at you and tell you here is your D.I to spend,,,it just continues to stay in the equation.
5. Since the UFF was the first to hit the industry, like all technology, competiton will drive down the cost of these types of programs...the strong will survive, the weak will not... the whole point of these products are to help people realize that they can control debt and not keep giving their money in interest to the bank. It is a great planning tool which is represented in the 7-8-9 scenario that we went through.
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