swellrider said:curtster said:swellrider said:
Lostdude, I'm glad I could make you laugh but a $3,500 principle payment when I started the MMA program would have reduced my mortgage term by 11 months. The MMA program has me on track to reduce my mortgage by more than 17 years.


Let's level the playing field... by how much would a $3,500 principle payment plus a monthly prepayment equal to that month's discretionary income have decreased your mortgage term? Having an advanced degree in finance, I'm sure you calculated that.

Using my average discretionary income, 19 years and 11 months. But I think it would be extremely foolish to put every penny of my discretionary income into my mortgage and not have a buffer built up in case of a lean month or unexpected expenses.So, by your own admission, if you had not done UFF, and instead spent the same amount of money (mortgage prepayments + $3500), you would have cut nearly another 3 years off your mortgage.

IF UFF comes out behind, why is it a good choice?

swellrider said:Obviously, I should not have mentioned the degree in the first place. The only reason I mentioned it is to point out that I have spent a lot of time, money and effort to try to be able to make sound financial decisions and I would still rather have a software program do it for me. I certainly did not mention it to belittle anybody else or claim to be an expert and everybody else laymen. I strongly agree with Isac Asimov when he said "Self-education is the only kind of education there is." I would rather spend my time with my family, not crunching numbers every month on when and how much I should put into my mortgage to maximize the benefits and not get myself into a pinch by putting too much in that can't be taken back out. For those of you geniuses out there, you may be able to do a better job of this yourself, I don't know. This is the best thing that I have personally come across for doing this and I do not believe that I can do a better job of it myself. I am not the smartest person that I have ever met either. I don't really care if you buy the MMA or not, I just know that I am happy using it for myself. I have also yet to come across anybody who has used the product and been unsatisfied (here in SoCal or online). All I have seen/heard so far is knocks from people who have never used the program. If anybody out there has used this program and was dissatisfied, please post here! I would also like to know if the "money-back guarantee" held up. As far as "Post your numbers and show us why spending 3500 on UFF is superior to using basic math to do the same calculations to pay down your mortgage.", again, I don't care if you buy the MMA or not, so I am not going to try to show anybody why the MMA is best for them. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH AND CALCULATIONS AND MAKE THE BEST DECISION FOR YOU!!! I also think that any UFF agent who is worth a hoot will share their personal numbers with you, mine did. I think that the biggest problem with UFF is that it is too easy to become an agent so there are undoubtedly many bad ones out there. My whole point is that I am happy with my purchase of the software thus far. If that makes me an idiot in some people's eyes, so-be-it. I am a happy idiot who is pleased with his "rip-off" purchase of "overpriced" software.

You blew $3,500 on software so you would have more time to spend with your family,
but you are spending time in cyberspace arguing--rather lamely--that its a great
product.

You have no financial interest at all in the tool you are shilling, and you admit
that many of the UFF con men are "bad", but here you are?

This FW thread consistently comes up near the top for google searches for UFF and has
undoubtedly helped many people decide not to waste their money on it. Maybe this thread
is costing you more than I had imagined.

Why is it that so many of the UFF boobs think they are smarter than the collective
wisdom of FWF?

swellrider said:curtster said:swellrider said:
Lostdude, I'm glad I could make you laugh but a $3,500 principle payment when I started the MMA program would have reduced my mortgage term by 11 months. The MMA program has me on track to reduce my mortgage by more than 17 years.


Let's level the playing field... by how much would a $3,500 principle payment plus a monthly prepayment equal to that month's discretionary income have decreased your mortgage term? Having an advanced degree in finance, I'm sure you calculated that.

Using my average discretionary income, 19 years and 11 months. But I think it would be extremely foolish to put every penny of my discretionary income into my mortgage and not have a buffer built up in case of a lean month or unexpected expenses.19 years and 11 months to finish the mortgage, or that time knocked off ?

You blew $3,500 on software so you would have more time to spend with your family,
but you are spending time in cyberspace arguing--rather lamely--that its a great
product.

You have no financial interest at all in the tool you are shilling, and you admit
that many of the UFF con men are "bad", but here you are?

This FW thread consistently comes up near the top for google searches for UFF and has
undoubtedly helped many people decide not to waste their money on it. Maybe this thread
is costing you more than I had imagined.

Why is it that so many of the UFF boobs think they are smarter than the collective
wisdom of FWF?

never said it is great and never claimed to be smarter than anybody else. I just wanted to share my experience with people and then felt the need to defend myself from ugly personal attacks. Continue to call me whatever you want. I am still happy with what the software is doing for me...and you are right, I should not be spending any more time on this, what a horrible waste of a Saturday afternoon.

swellrider, you really don't understand the UFF system. I 100% guarantee that, and the fact that you have a degree in finance from the U of A only disparages the program's rep. Here's why:

You say you want to spend time with your family instead of doing complex calculations figuring out optimal payments to make. Well, optimal payments take addition and subtraction. Bank balance minus bills equals optimal amount. Complex? No. And the sad thing is that the UFF, even if it were free, does not give you the optimal payoff times, not even the optimal MMA approach.

So you don't want to send all your money to your mortgage, so you bought an overpriced, underdelivering software that is SENDING ALL YOUR MONEY TO YOUR MORTGAGE.

You either don't get this whatsoever, or you do get it and you are lying and selling it (advertising).

The numbers don't lie, the UFF NEVER COMES OUT AHEAD.

We could end the discussion if we truly think Americans are as dumb/unsophisticated/etc. as natej implied. However, I think far more than 0.1% of Americans can do simple arithmetic AND for those that can't, there's no reason they should have to fork over $3,500 for a simple calculator. So while I applaud Natej for his candor, I am still troubled by the usurious price point and shyster marketing techniques.

natejennings said:
Some things not considered in the simple example above:
Analysis assumes all bills a paid on the first day of the month, wiser clients wait right up until the bill is due or when they will incur late charges to maximize the time their money is in the HELOC. Example does not take into account interest bearing checking accounts.

Also, with the do-it-yourself example, the $3,500 is an out-of-pocket expense, which many people simply don't have. The MMA example is taking it out of the HELOC and accounting for it in the payoff period.

For those of you doing this yourself, kudos to you! For those of you who do not believe in paying off mortgages early, you can provide a valid argument as well. The sad fact is that the vast majority of Americans are not doing this and need help and guidance to make it happen.

Please tell us how the interest on the HELOC is calculated. I believe the gains you are claiming come from not counting the interest paid on the HELOC. Please list the first few months' cashflows and I'm sure your claim will be invalidated. Thanks, though, for playing.

Edited to add: Previously when someone showed us the calculations, they pretended that the HELOC was like a credit card where you could float the loan interest-free if you zeroed the balance by the end of the month. To my knowledge, HELOCs don't work this way.

natejennings said:A lot of posts are asking for some actual analysis numbers for a comparison so here we go:
*I have tried to round numbers as much as possible to keep the comparison as simple as possible.

$200,000 mortgage
360 months left (30-yr term)
6.0% interest fixed for 30 years
HELOC at 8% (assumed fixed)
payments are principle and interest
example person has $1,000 discretionary income per month

On the MMA program:
1st mortgage and HELOC (including $3,500 setup fee) will be paid off in 10.3 years
Reducing the term by 19.7 years

Doing-it-yourself:
Putting a $3,500 principle payment toward the mortgage in month 1 of 360 month term (instead of buying MMA software)and all $1,000 of discretionary income toward principle each month.
1st mortgage is paid off in 9.9 years
Reducing term by 20.08 years

Please pay close attention to the arithmetic here. In particular, notice that the term using MMA is .38 years longer. For the $200k given, that seems to be exactly the $3500 that you paid upfront and there seems to be no interest charges for the use of the HELOC. So I guess that not only does the software help you evade HELOC interest, it also magically lends you its purchase price for 10 years interest-free.

As I said earlier, the slight of hand is the neglect of the HELOC's interest.

natejennings said:Man, rough group here...but a savvy one.yes. we have zero patience for scammers.First of all, as an agent of UFF I would like to apologize for the many misrepresentations that have been posted to this thread and a few others on this site. I can understand why it has led to such negative opinions. A lot of posts are asking for some actual analysis numbers for a comparison so here we go:
*I have tried to round numbers as much as possible to keep the comparison as simple as possible.

$200,000 mortgage
360 months left (30-yr term)
6.0% interest fixed for 30 years
HELOC at 8% (assumed fixed)
payments are principle and interest
example person has $1,000 discretionary income per month

On the MMA program:
1st mortgage and HELOC (including $3,500 setup fee) will be paid off in 10.3 years
Reducing the term by 19.7 years

Doing-it-yourself:
Putting a $3,500 principle payment toward the mortgage in month 1 of 360 month term (instead of buying MMA software)and all $1,000 of discretionary income toward principle each month.
1st mortgage is paid off in 9.9 years
Reducing term by 20.08 years

For those of you saying you can do this yourself, you are absolutely correct! But the problem is that you are in the top 1/10th of 1% of homebuyers in this country as far as financial knowledge and, most importantly, discipline goes. The sad truth is that 99.9% of all homebuyers do not have the knowledge or the discipline to do this themselves.nice of you to make generalities about what homeowners not only CAN do, but WANT to do. MANY home owners DO NOT WANT TO PREPAY THEIR MORTGAGE. Sure, one can save lots of interest by prepaying their mortgage. But a mortgage is one of the cheapest loans someone will ever get. So many chose to do other things with their extra money. Some invest, some play, some do other things.The average person, even if they understand these concepts, just will not follow through and do it. That is the true power of the MMA, not that it is some golden formula that nobody can replicate or do themselves but it helps hold the average homeowner accountable for their monthly budgeting and shows them how their spending patterns affect their finances. Without the MMA, the average person does not fully realize how spending $1k on a big screen tv can prolong the life of their mortgage. The MMA software puts their expenses right in front of their face and helps show them the consequences of their spending.just like any free web calculator will do, just for $3500 less. It is similar to why I hired a personal trainer last year. Sure I can go to the gym and work out without one and save the money, but I am inherently lazy and will not go. I need my trainer to hold me accountable for getting there and pushing myself.yeah, but a personal trainer would actually know something you don't and help you get to your goal faster, NOT SLOWER, like the UFF.Some things not considered in the simple example above:
Analysis assumes all bills a paid on the first day of the month, wiser clients wait right up until the bill is due or when they will incur late charges to maximize the time their money is in the HELOC. Example does not take into account interest bearing checking accounts. yep, and interest bearing checking accounts outperform MMA. at least in real world interest rates.

Also, with the do-it-yourself example, the $3,500 is an out-of-pocket expense, which many people simply don't have. The MMA example is taking it out of the HELOC and accounting for it in the payoff period.Whoa there, Tex. If you remove the $3500 fee from the UFF and the $3500 prepay from the counter example, and use an interest bearing checking account, the MMA loses. That's how useless the MMA is. An egg timer is just as effective as your software.

For those of you doing this yourself, kudos to you! For those of you who do not believe in paying off mortgages early, you can provide a valid argument as well. The sad fact is that the vast majority of Americans are not doing this and need help and guidance to make it happen.again, stop assuming the average American WANTS to do this. You seem more straightforward than the average agent, but it still doesn't change that it's a scam.

Props to you nateJ, in recognizing the magic math BS of the UFF program, and saying so here. But I have to also wonder how many of your clients you tell the same thing. Do you make it clear all they are getting for their $3500 is a motivational tool of unproven utility ? That the only thing they can be sure of, is that they will NOT get their $3500 back ? Do you tell them the dangers inherent in HELOCs for people who have demonstrated poor financial discipline in the past ? Do you mention the UFF prevents them from taking advantage of a high yield interest account for their salary ?

Now that we all agree that the UFF system is simply a web-based amortization schedule, can you in good conscience say your customers will benefit from the UFF one any more than they have from the free variety ? I certainly don't buy the argument that the UFF interface gives all important immediate feedback and is more accesible, because it is dependent on inputting every single expense for accuracy; and lets face it: anybody who is willing to do that over years already is, and has a handle on their spending and saving which is all UFF can ever hope to promote.

Lastly, I have to say along with Venturion, that it is disingenous to criticize other UFF salescritters, but give a free pass to the wildly misleading UFF website itself. If this is a strategy to garner sales, it's not a bad one. Particularly given how lame your colleagues are.