jgd51 said:You are right, the math does not lie. And if you work the numbers
from the UFF soft ware, it all makes sense. Have you gone that far?
Since you're fond of quotes...
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" Carl Sagan
You've made an extraordinary claim: spending $3500 to set up a program where you borrow at higher interest rates to pay loans at lower rates will reduce the time of the loan payoff by 2/3rds.

Why don't you do the math with the UFF software and post it here then? I guarantee it will be quoted for preservation.

ThirdJoker said:jgd51 said:Finally, comparing MMA to "Europe and Australia" isn't really fair. The part of the MMA that people are referring to as a "scam" is the $3500 software, not the concept of "interest cancellation".

Is $3,500 really a lot of money?

If someone buys into a program that will save them tens of thousands of dollars and more worth it?

If it changes the way people in America think about managing their money for the better, is that worth $3,500?

As a loan officer, I see more and more people refinancing just to consolidate debt!

Our economy is fueled by credit cards! All I need to do is review over 80% of my cases the last year.

So, is $3,500 too much?

It's worth what someone will pay.

And right now, LOTS of people are getting on board faster than I can process their applications.

I don't know if anyone has had a chance to actually see the LOOOONG version of how the software works, so I will post it here.

Go ahead folks, take your shots!
http://www.u1stfinancial.com/portals/0/media/mma100.html

NOTE: this link in no way promotes my business. It merely explains how MMA works.
So, hopefully this is not in violation of Fat Wallet TOC.

As far as I am concerned, I'm helping a lot of people and making a very decent living.

Mr Monky,

I am under the impression that in fact you do not "get it" as you claim. I am a mortgage broker with my own branch in Crystal Lake, IL. In fact I have come across the U1st MMA concept (and discovered another company that is doing 100% the same thing with an extra twist - also based out of Utah.) I believe this is an awesome concept and it really does work.

First - let me begin with the example of a live client:

He has a 5.625% first, lots of equity, and 2 student loans where payments are just becoming due. Additionally he is paying $150/month extra towards his first mortgage above and beyond the minimum.

Now I have what we call a "debt rolldown" calculator that figures out the exact amount of time to pay off debt based on a certain payment (usually the same payment before I meet the client) and with potentially restructuring the current debt if possible and plausible. I used this software to see where my friend's (client) payoff date and interest paid would be.

Bottom line is that if my friend kept going at his same rate of paying the $150 extra per month to the mortgage and supported the new student loan debt payments - he'd be debt free in 18.2 years and have paid a total $72,045 in interest.

If he used that extra $150/month a little more wisely (applying to different debts before the mortgage due to interest rate structure) he would be out of debt in 16.3 years and paid a total $67,927 in interest.

Now that's all well and good. (By the way - the extra $150/month amounts to OVER 3 extra payments per year. Bi-weekly programs only amount to 1 extra payment per year. So my friend believes he's on the straighter than narrow and also believes he's accomplishing the best he can do by paying towards the mortgage early)

However - here's what the payoff statistics look like when run through a calculator using the feature of a HELOC (open loan, average daily balance interest calculations, and deposits are considered the monthly payment due, check writing/debit card/online bill pay, etc.)

My friend will be out of debt in 7.3 years and paid a total $25,370.42 in interest.

So I would like to understand exactly what part of saving over 10 years in payoff date and $46,674.58 in interest saved is the part that everyone in this forum understands that programs like U1st's MMA, etc. are SCAMS and NOT WORTH using? (BTW - that $46k+savings and the 10yr+savings all included the $3500 software cost.)

Finally - the software - this can not be done with out the software. For several reasons:

First - To calculate the timing of this mortgage "acceleration" considering the factors of closed interest, open interest, forecasted costs, etc., etc - would be impossible to do without the sophisticated calculator. (If you believe that you can do it SIMPLY for the AVERAGE lay person - then show me the goods)

Next - The fact of LIFE. Life has it's unplanned changes - including changes in income and changes in expenses. One changes happen - again you would need to software to recalculate what this means before the software could direct you to make the adjusted payments in order to keep the program working and to keep you afloat in your daily living expenses.

To me this isn't that hard to see (but I'm a numbers guy who actually works in the mortgage business - I'm not the average lay person like my customers.) However what I see here is that most people don't understand the concept but thing that they do - then they bash it and cite off things like Quicken, and bi-weekly payments, or extra payments per month (like my friend here) and actually think that it's just as good if not better than using a HIGHLY sophisticated interest calculating software.

By all means - I understand that some people choke at $3500 - and I also understand that as everybody finally wakes up and gets it in the US (like they have done in Austraila and U.K. for decades now) then bank and companies will offer this product for less, and less, and less - until it eventually becomes a free tool that you get as a courtesy just to open your HELOC with "our bank."

By the way - I'll end with telling you that my friends overall "EFFECTIVE INTEREST RATE" based on his current plan of paying the debt with the extra $150/month is 6.50%. If he followed the debt roll down plan and paid the extra $150 to different accounts at different times - his rate would be 3.87%

BY USING THE HELOC TO "OFFSET" THE PAYMENTS (AS EVERYONE HERE IS CALLING IT) HIS TOTAL EFFECTIVE INTEREST RATE FOR ALL THE MONEY AND DEBT HE HAS BORROWED IS 1.413%!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Honestly - I'm not trying to be offensive or too sarcastic - I'm just going to ask - where can you show me how I can get this interest rate or better (1.413%) for my client anywhere else AND/OR without using the sophisticated software?

Be careful people - many are going to wake up with major egg on their face after having been proven wrong - and it's not going to be me. I have a successful mortgage practice and I will be putting all of my clients on this program - unless you can show me the same software somewhere else for FREE - then I will put my clients on that software.

But either way - rest assured this works - if you don't think so then you truly don't get it (in reality) - and I will be putting my clients (all past and future) on the program.

Your analysis conveniently stops short of the 1st three months. Although it may take 3-6 months to see the cost of the software recovered to a break-even point - from there it's all gravy baby!

My friend - I did analysis with using the MMA concept.

At the end of the first year he's paid $12,340.43 to principle. Someone who isn't making ANY extra payments on top of minimums due would only have paid $2,047.16 in principle. But all this happened with no change to living expenses, no refinance, no extra payments other than making the transfers when the software tells you to make the transfer - and those transfers still are not coming out of my client's pocket in the form of cash in anyway - just equity against the house.

So Ms. Mommy - you have this gut-wrenching appeal to save the family of the poor unfortunate misinformation of dumping $3500 that they could have done so many other great things with - and negated to see what the software does for them even in the first year - let alone the long haul. This is very short sighted and I'm ceratin you don't want to be known as short sighted. A 502.81% return (per year - remember this happened in ONE year) on the principle paid back into my friend's OWN POCKET is one heck of a return that I think ANYBODY would drop their other investments and get on board - even if the commission fee to do the trade was $3500 - don't you think?

drosengarden said:Mr. Joker,

You are incorrect in your assumptions that the software isn't sophisticated and not truly necessary. You liken the software to "rubber chickens" and state the likes that if I wake up one morning and because now I have a rubber chicken that I purchased that made me realized I have to work out to be healthy - I then work out because I spent my money on that rubber chicken.

I would like to ask you to tell me how exactly I would know when and how much I would have to pay towards my first mortgage out of my available balance of my HELOC in order to get the MAXIMUM possible debt reduction in terms of time and interest saved? This software, sir, is no rubber chicken. It's a necessary calculator. One cannot calculate this on his or her own without the calculator - and if you are gifted enough to do so - then you'd be 1% of the population I am sure.

Save us all the $3500 and tell us - I'll be grateful for life and so will my clients. How do I know how much and when to take out of my HELOC and put it towards my first mortgage to maximize pay off time and interst saved? And then tell me how I adjust knowing how much and when to pay if I need to buy a new car, or take a vacation, or pay for a financial or medical emergency, etc?

Again - I apologize for coming off too sarcastic if I have - but I will gladly eat crow if you will save me and my clients the $3500 with the "non-magic formula" (as you say) to do this same thing of paying of the mortgage early.

Surely you are joking...I could create an algorithm in my head that would approximate the MMA software's algorithm, just by spending a short time using the software. You can't possibly think that the software is so sophisticated that IT is responsible for the rapid payoff of a mortgage. Math is math. Like I said before, if it works for you, go for it. If you have mortgage clients that it works for, go for it. But at least admit that it's a praxeological issue, not a mathematical one. I for one don't begrudge your selling this product, it has its place.
By the way, it's really very unfair to talk about the "benefit" of saving on mortgage interest without talking about two things: taxes and opportunity costs. Factor those things in and, personally, I want the biggest ol' mortgage I can get without ever paying it off!

Edited for spelling typos...

algorithm in your head? no you can't! you are a liar a phony and a fraud. and add in that you said that you could do it after sitting down and watching the software for awhile. how long? until the debt was paid off at the accelerated rate? I guess then you wouldn't need the algorithm any more then, right? you admit you would need the software and this to do a thing you could not do and use regularly in your head without error. why would you try to mislead like this and outright lie? I asked to prove it and you just blankly state that you could do it with no proof. if math is math and there's no magic here - whixh I agree it's just math - then put the puppy down right here on this forum. i'll give it to my super geeks and they'll make the software for me and i'll give it out free with every heloc that is opened with me.

oh! and explain to me this tax benefit thing - for the common man - wheb does it benefit me to spen 1 dollar just to get 33 cents back? and I know - wheb I have a return that would make me more than the 67 cents I spent to get that 33 cents in a investment account. but why wouldn't I just want to get out of debt 1st for peace of mind and then play at that game wheb the first goal is accomplished successfully. again - for 99 precent of my clients - this would not make sense and the much rather be out of debt and own everything out rigth.

so forget the investment and tax returns. tell me where I can get over 502 precent return on my principle paid without changing my spending habits! and that return already takes into consideration the 3500 spent out of equity!!!

i'm waiting for valid responses to prove me wrong with facts - not blundering. and no! i'm not joking. i'll gladly eat crow if you can show me a system that will direct my clients how to do this for free or less money - and not using your so called 1 percent of the gifted world who can do it in your head! yeah right!

typed from my mobile-sorry about grammar

drosengarden said:
My friend will be out of debt in 7.3 years and paid a total $25,370.42 in interest.


Be careful people - many are going to wake up with major egg on their face after having been proven wrong - and it's not going to be me. I have a successful mortgage practice and I will be putting all of my clients on this program



drosengarden said: here you go - actual figures

1st mtg is 93000 5.625 fixed.
student loan 8000 6,8 fixed 10 years
student loan 7000 4,5 fixed 10 years

new heloc 18500 9 variable

net take home 4200/mo
discretionary income 815/mo

There you have it sir. no 25000 monthly income asyou suggest.

typed from my mobile pocket pc sorry for the grammar.

Watch as I "USE THE MATH" to prove these UFF shills are SCAMMERS:

You say his first mortgage is $93k at 5.625%. That means his mortgage is roughly $600/month, or $7200/year. Well gues what? EVEN IF HIS MORTGAGE IS 0% INTEREST and every penny went to principal, there is no way $7200/year, applied ALL to principal, can payoff a $93,000 mortgage in 7.3 years. Only $50k in payments have been made in 7 years....

These scammers are merely using HUGE mortgage prepayments in the software calculations. Worst of all, they keep saying they arent making prepayments when they are... the $815 "discretionary income" is being applied to mortgage paydown and is NOTHING MORE THAN A PREPAYMENT to the $93000 loan. In essence, he is making more than double the mortgage payment each month.

He doesnt need your BS $3500 software, All this "friend/client" needs to do is send the $815 monthly "discretionary income" to the mortgage company and the loan will be paidoff in 7 YEARS

prepayment calculator showing $815/month additional principal payments pays off the loan in 7 years:
http://www.decisionaide.com/mpcalculators/ExtraPaymentsCalculator/ExtraPayments1Vars.asp

Geezus these MoneyMerge new members are worse than the MLM shills....not gonna be long before moneymerge, united first financial etc become banned words in this forum.

SCAMMERS- stop twisting words and concepts - every one of you tries to say that extra principal payments arent being made when THEY ARE. Putting all the "discetionary income" towards the morgage or heloc is an ADDITIONAL PRINCIPAL PAYMENT, no matter what you want to call it. Ive proven you guys wrong here, and on page 3 here:
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.php?catid=52&threadid=730492&start=40

In your examples, all "discretionary income" is actually a MORTGAGE PRINCIPAL PREPAYMENT. If you simply send all your $815/month discretionary income to your mortgage/HELOC, it would be paidoff in 7 years.

Get lost scammer.

Shame on you for being a mortgage broker. You should lose your license.And shame on you for passing this off on your "friends".</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

UFF MMA is a scam bc their representatives (as seen above) ARE including HUGE principal paydown assumptionss when claiming shortened mortgage payoff dates.

They are claiming the monthly "discretionary income" figure isnt a mortgage prepayment when it is. A 30 year mortgage simply CANNOT be reduced to 7-10 years without making HUGE extra principal payments. Yet these scammers love to say their program doesnt involve extra principal payments.

Dont let these con artists twist it any other way.

A link on equity accelerator scams:
http://www.integramortgages.com/FinancialVOODOO

jgd51 said:Consider this, the MMA is growing exponentially every month here in the US.
Know what else grows exponentially every month? Every damn compound interest account. Go away MLM Freaks.

All told, 10 new members have shown up in this and related threads to tout this scam.