mikef07 said:

For JayK - Go ask a rich person how they got rich. Their answer will not be "By not paying off my house." Think the richest men in America have mortgages? Probably not.

Their answer will more likely be, "I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth."

jayK said:mikef07 said:For JayK - Go ask a rich person how they got rich. Their answer will not be "By not paying off my house." Think the richest men in America have mortgages? Probably not.Many of the richest people in the world have gotten their start taking out mortgages and other loans to bootstrap a new business. Even after they've made it big, you can bet that if they think they could get a better return on their investment than what they are paying out in mortgage interest, they'd get a mortgage in a heartbeat.

They could (get a better return) and they don't (get mortgages). They pay cash for their house.

Yeah DC,

No actually on this I don't think I would agree with you.

You see - if you need the cash as an emergency - then you take it out of your 2nd mortgage HELOC - but then you dump ALL of your paycheck (discretionary and all) back into the HELOC. Depending on the emergency - You will attack what you have withdrawn from the HELOC quickly with the discretionary - and while the paycheck is sitting in the HELOC until expenses are necessary - you are paying minimum interest.

Being debt free is NEVER a bad idea - you seriously have a different view than probably 9 out of 10 Americans. And that is a bit unusual - unless of course your are the 1 out of 10 sophisticated to understand and actually make work the money in your mortgage at one tax deductible rate work for you at a higher tax deferred rate.

But for the average Joe lunchbucket who wants massive acceleration of mortgage payoff and still have access to cash in case of emergency - what I just suggested will work totally fine.

Remember - in an emergency - the money has to go out no matter what. So why not have the money "soak up" the interest you normally would have on your first mortgage until that emergency arrives (acceleration) - and only take it out at a higher HELOC when EMERGENCY necessary. You'll then attack that with all you paycheck and soon be done with it.

I think you get the idea here...

drosengarden said:But for the average Joe lunchbucket who wants massive acceleration of mortgage payoff and still have access to cash in case of emergency - what I just suggested will work totally fine.

Depends upon your mortgage rate, highest FDIC insured savings rate, and your specific tax situation.

We've recently had very low mortgage rates and now that the rates have gone up its too hard to have a savings rate higher than a mortgage rate. In that case, dumping the discretionary money into a savings account makes more sense than putting into the mortgage.

An average Joe trying mortgage acceleration can easily grasp the concept.

jayK said:drosengarden said:Being debt free is NEVER a bad idea.BZZT...myth #24. Thanks for playing.

http://www.fatwallet.com/t/52/225082/

yeah, like I said- you can see from my post that *I* get the concept - but believe me - the average joe lunch bucket client I deal with doesn't *want* to get the concept. they just want the house _free and clear. and I still contest that is the best policy. forget this good fat idea - it's too convoluted for the simple minds to get. now the tangible goal of deeing a loan gone - that's an awesome feeling and the HELOC situation I posed would work for anyone understanding a checking account and pay as much as possible to debt. once they feel that burden gone (if they don't realize it sooner) they'll understand all that other planning later. and if sooner - great - but like 8 said - most ALL people I talk to would be happy enough to know how much more they could get ahead by killingthat mortgage. whether or not the best make mathematical sense policy - were talking clientele psychology. one example - talk to any hard headed know it all tradesman - they're pretty much all this way so he shouldn't be to hard to find - you'll get a better understnading where i'm comibg from. (again - even though I agree with you)

typed from my mobile

mikef07 said: Go ask a rich person how they got rich. Their answer will not be "By not paying off my house." Think the richest men in America have mortgages? Probably not.Mike, you think Donald Trump doesnt have mortgages on his Real Estate and owns it all free and clear?

Your tagline "do you think a rich person has a mortgage" is nothing but that Dave Ramsey BS. He loves to say that, but ignores the fact that many of the most successful people in RE , who own multiple properties, do not own them free and clear. Mortgages provide leverage, and thats what enables these people to get rich.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:drosengarden said:Truth be told - I just joined UFF and got access on Monday. I haven't sold anybody anything yet. The $175 I spent to join UFF to get access to the software and research for myself. I

Well - as I stated - I was wrong. And I'm out $175 - but I haven't lost any face. None of my clients even know abou this yet.

drosengarden said:
Being debt free is NEVER a bad idea - you seriously have a different view than probably 9 out of 10 Americans. And that is a bit unusual - unless of course your are the 1 out of 10 sophisticated to understand

drosengarden said:Mr. Suck,
In fact - as I promised I would - I am eating crow. And very much thanks to your reply using simple numbers and actual method concept. The truth be told is that I feel stupid for not running my calculator in the manner you have proposed before spouting off - but I didn't and therefore thought I saw a new business opportunity for my existing mortgage business.


Mr. Rosengarden - I am glad my example and my math helped you see how MMA is nothing more than a prepayment strategy, and that 95% of the mortgage shortening comes from EXTRA PRINCIPAL PAYMENT, not the software timing BS. KUDOS to you for discovering the product you were about to sell is based on DECEPTION and refusing to sell it.

You are correct that 9 out of 10 people dont know how to manage their money....but you have found the "1 out of 10" - THIS FORUM IS VERY ATYPICAL. In this forum , the vast majority of people are VERY financially sophisticated. Thats why we dont fall for these scams. DcWilbur, myself and others make far more in other investments than our low mortgage rates, and paying off the mortgage as slowly as possible is actually the most financially advantageous option for us. I dont know how you found this forum (probably by searching yahoo/google) but you happened to stumble on a very unusual group of folks, who handle their finances far better than the average American.

I noticed you said you paid $175 to become a UFF MMA Agent - If you dont mind, it may help others when approached to sell this product if you could detail the "initiation procedure" and how you were conned into becoming a UFF MMA agent, so that others can recognize the scam and avoid it.

Well - I hope those UFF agents who come here to review this will do so honestly.

I feel very aweful and quite the jack ass about this for several reasons:

#1 I knew this was an MLM (Network Marketing - you know, AMWAY!?) company. I've done MLMs before in a different life and I came up with this UNIVERSAL (not personal) rule: If the product is attached to Multi-Level-Marketing (AKA "almost" illegal PONZI schemes) then the product sure enough IS A SCAM. I ignored that rule before I spent the $175 on the entry to UFF and sure enough - I discovered the rule was true and if I just stuck to it I would have saved that money. (Although I will be asking for a refund because I went aboard under the impression of the "no change to monthly cashflow" being true. It is not true. This MMA is NOTHING more than a debt-rolldown/extra pricniple payments - which means CHANGING YOUR CASHFLOW! So that part is an outright lie)

#2 The fast talking chick who I was speaking with gave me the wrong gut feeling. And my gut feeling has become pretty refined over the years. My gut feeling is also mostly right (like #1 above which is ALWAYS right.) She was fast talking and not receptive or responsive to the true questions. Additionally when I started spewing out the technical numbers (being a mortgage professional) she would respond with long silent pauses. I figured it out now - she was like a deer caught in headlights. My knowledge caught her by surprise, she had mostly no idea what I was talking about, and probably afraid that I was on the verge of uncovering the truth behind the smoke and mirrors.

#3 My experience and my instincts (#1 & #2 above) I ignored (as mentioned.) BUT I DID IT AGAIN! WHEN WILL I LEARN - THE FOOL!

#4 Having all the proper info available (their client sales video tool is on Google Video) I didn't bother to run the numbers through my "sophisticated" debt elimination software that I use to sell my clients loans (and I don't sell them the software or the reports). As a matter of fact - I just got a nice leather portfolio binder from UFF in the mail today with that same video on DVD. And today - I did run the numbers of the EXACT scenario they show on the video in both UFF's MMA software and my debt elimination software. Results? My software would have the client out of debt 0.4 years sooner and save just about $3000 in interest payments - not to mention save the $3,500 in principle payments (that comes from the price of the software.) And how is this done - the good old fashioned principle of ACCELERATED PRINCIPLE PREPAYMENTS TOWARDS THE MORTGAGE EVERY MONTH! (And again - UFF marketing materials claims that this program is NOT debt roll down, NOT prepayment on principle, and NOT any changes to your cashflow. In fact - that is EXACTLY what this is so the marketing material is 100% a lie - And even taking out a new HELOC is technically a Refinance - so even the part about this NOT being a refinance is also a lie!)

So to answer your question, Mr. Suck (why do you have that name anyway?) how did I get conned? By not doing and following the above - and further more - because I DIDN'T RUN the numbers - I fell into the trap of being wooed by the marketing material that - again - stated this MMA program is NOT a refinance (but it really is), NOT a debt roll down (but it really is), NOT any changes to your cash flow (but it really is), NOT any changes to your living expenses and lifestyle (but it really is - the extra payment required to your mortgage is in FACT a change to your required expenses - required in the fact that if you don't do it - the program will NEVER work.)

So I'm an idiot - quite a jack ass - and still kicking myself for not following my own Jiminy Cricket!

UNITED FIRST FINANCIAL AGENTS TOUTING THE MONEY MERGE ACCOUNT - BEWARE! ONCE PEOPLE WAKE UP AND SEE WHAT THIS PROGRAM IS FOR WHAT IT **REALLY** IS - YOU WILL HAVE RUINED RELATIONSHIPS WITH FRIENDS, FAMILY, AND CLIENTS (IF YOU'RE A MORTGAGE AND REAL ESTATE PROFESSIONAL LIKE ME - OR ANY OTHER PROFESSION FOR THAT MATTER IF YOU ARE USING YOUR CLIENT DATABASE TO MARKET THIS PROGRAM TO! ***DON'T DO IT***)

ALSO - BEWARE OF THE SYDNEY FINANCIAL GROUP (SEE THE VIDEOS ELSEWHERE ONLINE - NICE TALKING AUSTRAILIAN MAN - THE COMPANY ISN'T EVEN BASED OUT OF AUSTRAILIA - THEY ARE ALSO OUT OF UTAH - JUST LIKE UFF). THIS COMPANY DOES THE EXACT SAME THING BUT THEY USE A CREDIT CARD IN ADDITION TO THE WHOLE MIX. THEIR PRESENTATION IS REALLY, REALLY, AWESOME AND SMOOTH HOWEVER - IT'S EXTREMELY BELIEVABLE. BUT AS HAS BEEN PROVEN HERE - JUST RUN THE EXTRA MONEY YOU HAVE LEFT OVER EVERY MONTH DIRECTLY INTO YOUR MORTGAGE AND USE A PENCIL AND A PIECE OF PAPER TO TRACK IT AND ANY ONE OF THE BAZILLION MORTGAGE PREPAYMENT AMORTIZATION CALCULATORS AVAILABLE FOR ***FREE*** ONLINE AND YOU WILL HAVE SAVED MORE MONEY AND MORE TIME THAN YOU WOULD HAVE IF YOU BOUGHT INTO THIS SCAM SOFTWARE LIKE UNITED FIRST FINANCIAL'S MONEY MERGE ACCOUNT OR SYDNEY FINANCIAL GROUP'S MONEY CHECKING ACCOUNT.

There - have I regained my respectable status now?

mikef07 said:While there are many companies pushing a pay for home ownership acceleration program, there are some (Wells Fargo) that do not charge you anything to do bi-weekly payments.

Who else besides Wells Fargo does not charge for bi-weekly payments? I searched but could not find any info, are there threads that refer to this? Thanks in advance.

Hi SIS, I wish you well. Thank you for responsing.

Indeed, I do this already. However, I thought that if I allocate the same amount of funds I am already paying (in my case the extra payment per year divided evenly into monthly payments) and divided the monthly payment into two payments and paid them twice in a month (approx. two weeks apart), that I would achieve additional benefit. Am I correct? If not, I'll stick to doing it as you mentioned. If so, I have one mortgage with Wells Fargo that I can do this with at least and wonder if I can do it with others. Thanks again. B.

drosengarden said:
There - have I regained my respectable status now?

Dans mes bras, mon fils!

(I had a hunch it was a MLM trying to fill the gap after HerbaLife cracked down)