gah, you really should have just sent AMEX the tax documents. worst that could have happened was you lose some credit limit or get one to two cards closed.

the domino effect really played out in a disastrous way.

I went through a FR following my AOR from july as well. All I did was send them 3 months of 200k bank balance and they took the hold off in 7 days. I did lose two business cards due to "no doing business as registration", but my personals were untouched.

Anyways, I feel for you man. . Just sh1t luck and maybe you tried to put too much in.

I think the only thing you can do now is pay off balances on time, and then get your cards reinstated 3-6 months later. hopefully most of the issuers will take you back.

PS. I would double check to make sure the closed cards are still at 0%.

kkerty, thanks for documenting your recent trauma. It's very valuable to the community to find out about adverse action. In fact, I'd say it's more useful than documenting the happy parts of an AOR.

1) AMX always seems to be a high-risk crapshoot. And in general, you have the option of closing your cards, or bending over, submitting the forms, and maybe getting the cards closed anyway. Not much you could do there.

2) How were you using MBNA billpay? I can think of three ways of misusing it, in escalating annoyance to BofA:
a) Paying other BofA cards with it
b) Misuing it to force money into deposit accounts temporarily
c) "Kiting" payments ping-ponging between two different BofA cards

Heck, I'm guilty of a) myself, just as a convenience issue. I pay ALL of my cards with an FIA card, even the BofA ones.

3) And as for exploiting the float on large transfers over the weekend, well, assuming you read MikeR's thread, you knew what you were getting into. And it looks like you got it.

Who are the bozos at the rebate company? Go ahead and name names.

So, what's the total damage? Looks like you've got all of the AMX cards closed, and all of the BofA/FIA cards closed, and a bunch of funds frozen for a fairly short amount of time at BofA? I'll admit that's pretty bad, but by no means fatal. You've still got 15 or more cards to play with, and the next AOR will recoup much of the BofA and AMX cards. As long as the funds freezing remains within reason (and I wouldn't expect it to drag on, since you weren't actually check kiting), then I think you'll bounce back.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:...giving the whole concept of 0% investing a bad name.
I giggled when I read that part.

r0man said:kkerty89, let me be the first to sympathize. Major bummer(s).

Since you're graciously sharing information, I'd like to get some more details:

1. Did AMEX say what prompted the FR? I got the impression it was when you paid off the IN:Chicago and requested an additional BT. I was planning on doing the same thing with my IN:NYC with 49% utilization (in order to keep it from reporting), but now I'm less sure.

2. What was you approximate global utilization when FIA called and shut down your accounts? Did you make any purchases with your Billpay cards in addition to the BP activity?

Thanks.

1) No. I believe it was combining all lines to 70K and then funnelling BTs in and out so quick. They came at me while I was at a 0 balance on In Chicago.
2) Gloabal utilization was MAYBE 20%. They were reved up about the 13 new accounts (sorry it's accounts not inquiries) showing. The accounts combined with the change from 423 to 85000 in debt had them worried and they saw where it was going. At the time I had around 15K actual with them. I will document FIA card utilization in answer to DH.....

elleve said:gah, you really should have just sent AMEX the tax documents. worst that could have happened was you lose some credit limit or get one to two cards closed.

the domino effect really played out in a disastrous way.

I went through a FR following my AOR from july as well. All I did was send them 3 months of 200k bank balance and they took the hold off in 7 days. I did lose two business cards due to "no doing business as registration", but my personals were untouched.

Anyways, I feel for you man. . Just sh1t luck and maybe you tried to put too much in.

I think the only thing you can do now is pay off balances on time, and then get your cards reinstated 3-6 months later. hopefully most of the issuers will take you back.

PS. I would double check to make sure the closed cards are still at 0%.

I read something in the FR thread about an AMEX threat to turn somebody in to the I. R. S., the thought of increasing the percentage chance of an audit happening made me sick. Explaining this whole process to the IRS and why I have 20-30K in interest income would eat up a lot of my time. I folded.

The 0% cards held steady. Just to be clear, the AM.EX Closed accounts hadnt shown up when FIA came calling. I honestly believe I just had 2 poorly timed reviews with FIA, One when I looked like 'the man' and one right after the start of the AOR. I think If I had shown 50-60K in debt on the first internal review, it wouldnt have looked like the sky was falling with a 20000% increase in debt.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:
http://www.fatwallet.com/t/52/756761/11049612#m11049612

OP Im sorry to see this string of bad luck, but I dont think it is a huge surprise adverse action was experienced here...


I'm a big boy and knew the consequences, not going to say it was all bad luck and plead innocence. I went 'Tin Cup' and refused to lay up. I left myself quite a few outs (the last one being the wife). I am certainly likely to continue to get more adverse action. As long as I dont end up the guy paying his bills with cashier checks I can accept the consequences.



IMO the transactions you describe are emblematic of the "push to the edge" ideas recently promoted which are TOO DANGEROUS. Am.EX is an issuer known for FR...pushing multiple huge BTs through them is just asking for problems unless you can substantiate income. Weekly funds movement that looks like check kiting? Asking for more problems. And the bad rebate checks, while having an adverse consequence, have nothing to do with using 0% money. Also, see my old thread on keeping your deposits at DIFFERENT institutions than the banks you use to play CC games...

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/arcmessageview.php?catid=52&threadid=159150

if everything is at the same bank, and you are flagged for unusual activity on the credit (or deposit) side, you are much more likely to face adverse action with that entire banking relationship. Maintaining good banking relationships (while still profiting from the games we play here) is a concept I believe is lost on many readers, and Im very concerned some of the recent strategies for juicing returns an extra few $$ at the expense of risking banking relationships is going to result in many more stories like this, giving the whole concept of 0% investing a bad name. I really, really wish people would exercise some restraint from all the "push it to the limit" topics that have been posted recently and understand the meaning of MODERATION (no, not forum moderation).

I think I overlooked the BOA banking relationship with credit cards. I agree this was a mistake. The banking relationship was fairly newly formed and an acceptable consequence. Losing billpay, the fidelity card and a card 7.5 years old was a pretty big punch.

Thanks for sharing kkerty89. Appreciate it.

-Pak

DaveHanson said:kkerty89 said:I was funnelling most of my BT money through their cards to a cash outlet.Like a brokerage account?

I completely understand if you don't want to be specific, I'm just zeroing in on what the anaylst was "mumbling" about.

To be vague and yet clear at the same time. A deposit account at one of our favorite credit unions. I think TonySpero whispered this technique in some thread, I jumped on board fully as I hadnt figured out an outlet.

Again to add detail, surprisingly the rep did not specify any account I had paid, as if it was not easily, readily available. He saw the transaction as a payment to checkfree.

thanks for the kind words everyone. It has definitely been easier discussing this rather than chewing on it by myself.

EricGo07 said:kkerty89, I have to admit that compared to you I am a noob. I can barely follow the money trail(s).

Please correct these impressions, since I am trying to grok what went wrong here --

1. Large increase in CC debt overall
2. CC balances fluctuating wildly at AM EX
3. Balances fluctuating wildly at BOA's billpay
4. Multiple new accounts evident after the first red flag led to a human review.

I'm trying to shoehorn these data points into what I imagine are bugaboos for the credit card company in decreasing order: bankruptcy, money laundering, and kiting. If I'm on the right track, then we can focus our efforts on how to pull money out of BT cards that do not allow deposits to our personal checking accounts, without raising the spectre of the above.

Sorry if this is all obvious, and thanks very much for helping to sort it out.

EricGo, it looks so darn simple putting it in 4 lines, lol, but yes you're on track there.

The simplistic goal of BT arbitrage is: Go from 0 debt to $X on cards, and $X in the bank. Do this as subtly as possible without talking to a human. This is (obviously) not easy.

For purposes of future EricGo07's research, this was my detailed plan to move money:

1) Open 2 CB bank accounts and fund them with my large limit, established reward cards (Chase and BOA).
2) Any cc's willing to send money to a bank account, do it.
3) Used 0% cards with only ability to transfer from a cc to clear reward cards.
4) Reallocate the available credit from reward cards to transfer/billpay cards
5) Fill up Billpay cards to deposit account.
6) Used AM EX 0 fee transfers as a 2nd tier supplement to billpay to clear the billpay cards and allow for consolidation of a large limit card transfer with a limited transfer fee.
7) Recycle 5 & 6 until done.

(Unless doing back to back expiring aors) Without balances on cc's that I wanted to pull off I didnt really see any other ways to accomplish this. Yes I couldve used citibank a little (what am I going to do send them 300K?) 5 & 6 drew a lot of attention from humans once the red flag was raised. It goes back to what SIS preaches, moderation, but what defines moderation? how do we know what moderation is? how do we know moderation wasnt conservative? --- failure for doing too much is one way to find out. someone has to hit beyond moderation to define it.

markkundinger said:Kkerty, when you describe more, it sounds like maybe it wasn't the MBNA billpay that triggered your quality time with BofA's credit ninja, but it may have exacerbated the condition once the credit ninja looked at it. If it's as opaque as you hint at, the checkfree transactions may just appear like a unknown black box of irregular spending, rather than regular purchases.

I had been doing it for several months and dont believe it was an abnormal pattern. I was definitely in the same pattern when I had the $423 debt showing. Before that I was doing TONS of purchases with them for eBay stuff.
I concluded with the guy that called me (he said my accounts were to be closed), I called back the next day to get someone different in hope of reconsideration, they went and got 'my file' and no mention of anything checkfree, just 13 new accounts, 13 new accounts, 13 new accounts, big balances, big balances, big balances. Rep yesterday told you to call back in 6 months. Call in 6 months. I dont think that wouldve been documented had I been a checkfree abuser.

ltcm said:lhendricks92 said:kkerty89 said:Yeah the 0% cards held steady. Just to be clear, the AM.EX Closed accounts hadnt shown up when FIA came calling. I honestly believe I just had 2 poorly timed reviews with FIA, One when I looked like the man and one right at the start of the AOR. I think If I had shown 50-60K in debt on the first internal review, it wouldnt have looked like the sky was falling with a 20000% increase in debt.

This makes me wonder if having a decent balance or 2 showing during an A.O.R. might not be such a bad thing.


This certainly may be true. When I did my mini-AOR a few months ago a minor bank (I can't even remember which one) called me for additional verification for my app. They asked why I had applied for that card given that I had other cards and I mentioned the favorable BT rate. The lady went on to say that I only had $31 showing on my credit report as outstanding and what exactly was I planning to transfer? I told her my car loan and she dropped it, but she told me in order to approve my application I needed to send in tax documents and paystubs. I told her to close the app and forget about it.

I had a $38K balance showing on a $50K CL card showing during my last A.O.R. Didn't seem to hurt me at all with approvals or CLs. Never thought of it as possible insurance against adverse action. (New BT balances aren't such a huge percentage increase over what you had before.)

Of course, I could easily be the next credit card investing gangsta to get jacked. Time will tell.