Edit 7/19/08 Same bad program, new name. The Jubilee Project brought to you by the makers of the Money Merge Account is as bad for you as the original. Don't be fooled. Don't be a victim
** Warning to UFF - this requires following an "algorithm", using "algebra", and other High school math techniques ***
What UFF / MMA WON"T tell you. Get an analysis of how you can easily beat their plan - FOR FREE
This thread is not intended to be one of them. Nor it is intended for debate. The purpose is simple. An objective alternative analysis of what MMA proposes with their "data" as compared to simply prepaying your mortgage. We make no money off the analysis, so we have no stake. Simply seeking to make sure people have the data.
Simply post the following and we will show how the MMA comes out behind what you can more easily do on your own.
How long does MMA say it will take until your mortgage is paid off? What was the amount you owed on your mortgage when you began this program? What is the total amount of interest you will pay by using this program? (This number should be in the total interest paid column on your analysis) What is the interest rate of your mortgage?
Everyone, please ignore and mark as red any post that tries to create or respond to debate. These hucksters are excellent at misdirection. This thread, pure and simple, is intended to allow potential victims to get an objective analysis of how badly MMA performs as compared to easier to implement alternatives - BEFORE THEY ARE SEPARATED from $3500
scam UFF United First Financial, Money Merge, Scam, MMA, scam, u1stfinancial, u1st
UFF/MMA agents admitting that they lose In their own words, admitting that standard prepayment - an easy thing to do - beats MMA /UFF. Their numbers, their example, their math - and their admission
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UFF is a very expensive version of the money merge account (MMA) idea. Salary, home mortgage, and home equity are linked together through a HELOC. In a fashion one can think of having one big account. There can be advantages: 1. Salary saves a few dollars of mortgage interest until it is spent. This is worth about $5/month for every $3000 of paycheck 2. The UFF program also offers a web interface that can be used to track expenses, make a budget, and see how much is left to pay on the mortgage. This mortgage balance is translated into years till repayment if current spending/savings patterns continue. If a person keeps accurate track of expenses and can see where money is going, it might influence spending patterns. In personal finance lingo, a strict budget can be a behavioral modification tool. Of course, the person has to be motivated in the first place to keep a budget and track expenses carefully, so the tool is only a tool.
There are disadvantages: 1. HELOC puts the home equity right in front of the consumer in the form of checks or a debit card. The HELOC issuer tries to make it *very* easy to spend that money, and collect variable rate interest. Many people are well served by it not being too easy to spend. 2. The common money pot is a variable interest account that costs the consumer money when rates go up. 3. The UFF program costs $3500
The snake oil part of MMA, and particularly the UFF version: These programs are sold *very* aggressively in the US as part of a multi-level marketing scheme by people who do not really understand what they are selling, but are highly motivated by a $1400 commission for each customer they reel in. Part of the pitch is nonsense, part of it is deception: Deception: While is it true that salary will gain a couple of dollars of interest each month as mentioned above, UFF would have the potential customer believe it is thousands a year. They do not say this, they just imply it. And it is wrong. Nonsense: There is no magic math that the MMA has invented or discovered. Early repayment simply requires that the a mortgage holder apply more of their paycheck to the mortgage. Deep Deception: The UFF program wants the customer to believe that the advertised quick mortgage pay-off happens from salary interest, and is inherent to buying the program, when in fact it happens when a bigger part of the salary is sent to the mortgage. This is why UFF always asks what the customer's discretionary income is. The program assumes *all* discretionary income goes to the mortgage. Tell the UFF program there is no discretionary salary, and *poof*, the early mortgage payoff is gone. It is because of these deceptions that UFF is called a scam on this board.
A better way: It is really easy to use readily available tools and money vehicles to do everything the UFF does, only better; and keep the UFF fee of $3500 in your pocket (or have $3500 less debt, as the case may be).
A. Put your salary into a HY checking account, and draw down for bills as late as possible; just be sure to avoid late fees. This is not a lot of money, -- also around $5 dollars per $3000 paycheck, but it is free. Sometimes a HY savings account offers higher interest rates, but only limited transaction activity is allowed without fees. A multi-tier accounts setup of minimal complexity can make this work, but is outside the scope of this summary. B. Every penny saved, is a penny that can be put extra into the mortgage, or an investment. Or a new business. Or the stock market. Or a CD. Or an emergency cash fund kept in a HY savings account. Or ... well, you get the idea. C. If all savings have been put into mortgage pay-down, a free HELOC is one way to get at the equity if needed D. Want to track expenses and/or set up a budget ? Try MS Money, Quicken, or dozens of other programs. Or use a pencil and paper. Or go to a cash only life. E. Want to know how many years remain on the mortgage, if a constant monthly savings continue and are sent to the mortgage as pre-payment ? Hundreds of amortization calculators are available free to use on the internet. Here is an excellent one. Input remaining balance, interest rate, and (monthly payment + extra-payment - monthly_escrow_contribution). The answer may be inaccurate up to a month, because of accrued interest since the last payment you are not accounting for. F. Tell the MMA scams to UFF off.
The link gives you all the details - the numbers that UFF gave our hapless scammee - and multiple better easy to implement alternatives
Option 1: $43,632.65 ($3500 purchase fee + $40,132.65 Total amount of interest to pay off mortgage under MMA scam (8.2 years)) Option 2: $37,138.19 Total amount of interest to pay off mortgage simply be paying the exact same amount directly to your mortgage (8.2 years) Option 3: $34,952.58 Total amount of interest to pay off mortgage in 8.2 years using the $3500 and applying it to mortgage immediately (and lower per month payment) Option 4: <$34952.58 - Did not run this, but if you kept payments as in 1 & 2, payment would be less than 8.2 years
As you can see, every option that exists, except "do nothing" beats the UFF /MLM scam by at least $6500
mikef07 said:I used your numbers, YOUR NUMBERS, to show that this will cost you $6,000 more. .... If you do it on your own, the amount of actual money that you will pay over those 8.4 years is ~$6,000 more.
An objective alternative analysis of what MMA proposes
Everyone, please ignore and mark as red any post that tries to create or respond to debate. These hucksters are excellent at misdirection. This thread, pure and simple, is intended to allow potential victims to get an objective analysis of how badly MMA performs as compared to easier to implement alternatives - BEFORE THEY ARE SEPARATED from $3500
Ellroy - I am new to this message board and forum, therefore I am quite curious about this whole UFF/MMA thing - $3500 - what's that all about? But Anyhow...
the way you word your post and the language you use, in the context that you use it, makes you seem like a fraud yourself. Using words such as "FOR FREE" in bolded caps and Everyone, please ignore and mark as red any post that tries to create or respond to debate. only goes to create an atmosphere of fear used by a competitor of the company you are questioning. When you tell people to do something, when you try to HINDER DEBATE - you sound just as unethical as any company that may or may not be a huckster
Maybe I am wrong, but the tatics that you are using and the language you use makes it seems like that you are trying to debunk a product that is in competition with yours...it is pretty obvious that you are trying to sell something as well:
If you wish to run the numbers yourself use this excellent prepayment calculator - I mean come on Ellroy - this is simply nothing more than a link to your PRODUCT which is in direct competition with this MMA crap.
come on - sell me something new Ellroy. How objective are you really being? Do you even understand what objective means? Just in case here is the definition:
5. not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion. Text http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/objective
I bet that you do not have enough courtesy to respond to the reply I am creating here - that's if you don't flag this reply 1st!!!
I could care less about debating UFF...did you even read my reply all the way through? When some one makes claims about subject A, claiming it to be "Objective" then redirects someone else to a site of their own, subject B, I have hard time calling that objective.
please point out, in explicit detail, where I have in any way tried to debate the merits of UFF or any product for that matter, in my 1st and only post so far on FW.
My only qualm is the misuse of logic - if Ellory has something real to point out then the way he worded his post is not necessary. Simply state what you have to offer, let the thinking public decide after the proper information has been presented and go from there. What Ellroy has done in What UFF / MMA WON"T tell you. Get an analysis of how you can easily beat their plan - FOR FREE is something Akin to Al Franken or Rush Limbaugh - misuse of logic to push a skewed perspective - if he really wants to help people, then there is no need for fear tactics and derogatory language, all that does is push people away - it is counter-productive to his agenda, which is quite stupid from a strategic perspective. If Ellroy or you for that matter wish to debunk anything, try a little bit of humility - it worked for Jesus.
Besides, I thought I proved my point by giving the dictionary defintion of of the WORD OBJECTIVE - can you or he honestly say that his post is objective?
So, please point out where my logic is wrong. Please point out, qoute from my original reply to Ellroy, where I tried to debate the merits of UFF.
I am a shill because I did not spell ellory's name right?
as I asked, once, and will again - please show where I have tried to debate the merits of any product.
All I am debating is the use of Ellory's logic and language. I am a Mass Media / Communication's PHD candidate - Temple University - The use of language and the logic employed to push such language are of natural concern to me - especially in any mass medium.
When I originally came to FW, I did so because my girlfriend and I are engaged to be married (Just so - this past weekend)and are in the very beginning stages of planning our lives together, so I ran across FW and here I am - I can assure you I am not here to sell anything. I am simply trying to ease my fears of the financial aspects of marriage (owning a home, life insurance, duel checking accts, credit cards, etc.)- we are in our mid-20's and are naturally nervous, albeit, in love.
So please, when you accuse me of being a shill, at least answer my question 1st - don't try to wade your way around my point by using dbl. speak and weak arguments based on if I did or did not spell your friends name right or not.
Ellory's tone stems from 80 pages of rebutting shills in the thread SiS linked to. I actually agree with you that the OP looks garish with all the smileys, and has something of the advertisement initial impression to it; but this is not the intent, I assure you.
I admit to now being bored by the entire UFF scam, but a couple of weeks ago gave considerable thought to coming up with the simplest explanation or demo that a hapless potential victim might understand, having come to our forum by way of a google search on UFF. I added it to SiS' FAQ on offset accounts in the summary section after the OP. This is Ellory's approach, using the equivalent of a P&I comparison calculator.
I don't know if the undecided will recognize a P&I comparison as a valid debunking of the scam, and in accord with Ellory's request, will not analyze or substantiate the logic in this thread. I will say fwiw, that I have no doubt it is completely valid.
I have been slow to recognize shills before, but do not think icanselljesus is one. I prefer to accept him at face value as someone who can probably provide very interesting insight into marketing a message.
Is Marshall Macluhan still venerated ? I'm probably just dating myself here
EricGo07 said:I have been slow to recognize shills before, but do not think icanselljesus is one.( spotting shills:
#1 New member #2 they bump a thread thats 2 weeks old, dozens of pages off the main page. Obviously they found this via google search for UFF or were searching for the UFF posts at FW
Spotting same posters as past shills
#3 they exhibit the same characteristics (misspelling ellory), trying to cloud discussion by starting an argument about objectivity/choice of tone vs. the subject of the thread, etc.
This is most certainly a shill, and probably one of the past shills in the other thread. Ask FW mods to compare the IP data between this user and the other shills
I've offered a gambit. Will he take it ? My experience with UFF shills so far is that they are all stupid, and will not recognize my offer, let alone avail themselves of it.
In my world, what you describe are known as risk factors; that it, epidemiological associations that increase the pre-test probability of something being true. I don't dispute any of the ones you mention, but am familiar with people who tend to listen much more than they talk; and only speak up when they are quite certain of their contribution. That sort of person would fit the shill pattern, but not be one.
Moreover, I think it better to let shills have their moment in the sun before being cut down, if the cost is errant tarring of a new contributor. I KNOW we are all sick of UFF shills, and have become sensitized to anything that reeks of them. Still, a bit of patience is a good thing, and civility always benefits the bearer in the end. I admit to mild hypocrisy in this last admonition.
brushwood said:Does anyone else find it interesting that MMA shills use monikers like "icanselljesus" and "confuseu"? Why not just sign up as "iamauffshill"?
icanselljesus said:long post 1. If you want to debate the merit of UFF / MMA or understand why it is a scam, please read post in the thread I've linked in the OP 2. If you don't like the prepayment calculator I linked to, feel free to use anyone you want. They will all show you the same result 3. I am not responding to personal attacks. 4. When something is false, I have a point of view and portray it. I do not believe outright false views- and lies -(e.g the world is flat) have "an equal right" to "express their viewpoint"
There was really no need to PM me to insist I respond to this thread. (I do have to sleep sometime) Everyone else was doing a great job.
This thread has a purpose, for people to post their numbers that UFF provided and then get an objective view of what they can do themselves so let's please stay on topic.
And please mark as red and do not respond to off topic posts - or this thread will get as swamped with off topic noise as the other ones
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I am a shill because I did not spell ellory's name right?
