“Pay off my HELOC” AOR - Winding down, time to plan round two

Purpose – Get new 0% balance transfer promos and new credit to pay off my HELOC for another year, and business cards to pay off small installment loan ($20k, with recently expired intro rate) for wholly-owned C-corp. Put remaining 0% money in HYSA - both personal and business HYSAs are established.

Primary goal for personal credit revolves around getting new 0% offers to reallocate existing credit limits to, and expand into missing issuers – Citi, Juniper. BofA global limit is maxed out, and presumably Discover is close. Want to go heavy in Business cards (and still ended up doing so) due to relatively higher limits and the balances not showing on my personal credit reports, but due to the business being a Corp I cant use this money towards my personal HELOC.

This is my first AOR since finding this site just shy of one year ago, although I have used the same basic premises over the past few years to finance buying a business, buying a house, and buying out a deadbeat business partner.

HHI:
$70,000. Want to avoid any financial review or documentation requests. HHI includes C-Corp income that has not be paid out and into my personal finances. I assume that a FR of personal finances will disallow this income, as the money still belongs to the Corp and has yet to be realized by me; I think I am in a gray area in the realm of stated income because of this. Business Apps will list revenue at $250,000 ($70000 profit if asked).

Business Applications use a TID.

Credit scores:
No clue. I have never used a monitoring service. I would go through with this regardless, so it is irrelevant in my mind. For a corporate account personal guarantee inquiry about 6 months ago, I was told my score was about 670. Had large balances/high utilization at the time. Educated guess as to my current score, thanks to this FICO Score Estimator, is about 750.

Inquiries (per free reports):
Experian – 19 (10 in the past year, and only one in the past 6 months)
Equifax – 10 (5 in the past year, zero in the past 6 months)
TU – 7 (5 in the past year, zero in the past 6 months)
* I have never practiced the art of bumpage, although that may change in the upcoming weeks to repair the damage. Previously, I have disputed all inquiries that were unrelated to any accounts on my credit report in writing with Equifax, and all unassociated inquiries were successfully removed.

Existing Accounts – (none have balances)
credit limit, year opened
BofA AAA - $24900, 2003
Discover - $15002, 1995
AMEX - $15000, 2003
Discover Gas (whatever it is called now) - $2500, 2004
Chase Disney - $4000, 2006
Key Bank Platinum - $4000, 2006
Wachovia - $5500, 2007
Key Bank Personal LOC - $10000, 2003
BofA Personal LOC - $10500, 2003
Throw-away cards (minimal limits left from reallocation) – $4000, each 2-4 years old
BofA Business Platinum – 3 cards with cumulative $31,750 limit, each 2-3 years old
Citizens Bank Business - $5000, 2006
HSBC Business - $5000, 2006
Chase Business - $9000, 2006
*closed Advanta Business 3 weeks ago to allow for a new application

BofA HELOC - $89,000, $60,000 used, 2004.

Prep:
1) Sept 25 - Paid off ALL outstanding credit card balances (expiring or so-to-expire BT promos) using HELOC. Drew money from HELOC right after the statement closing date, in an attempt to time AOR to show no outstanding debt. Large draw must have trigger an update, as HELOC now shows $60,000 balance.

2) Sept 28 - As soon as payments posted to the credit card accounts, disputed the balances for each account on all three reports.

3) October 5 – Receive notice that Equifax investigation is complete, continuously updating Experian report shows correct balances, and TU dispute status says 5/5 items completed (although the investigation is still 'ongoing').

4)October 6 - Pulled trigger on AOR with all balances showing zero. Why on a Saturday night, holiday weekend to boot? Don’t know, just felt like the right time to do it.

Cards to be applied for (card, bonus, promo BT terms, BT fee):
**will add links when time permits**
Citi Professional, 15k TYP, 0%/12 months, no fee
Citi Business, 15k TYP, 0/12, no fee
Discover Open Road, Free Ipod via myeasyrewards.com, 0/12, $75 fee
Advanta Business, $25 via cardselection.com, 0/16, $50
National City Lifespring, 0/12, no fee
Chase Sony, $100 statement credit, 0/12, $75 fee
BofA Platinum, 0/12, no fee
Citi AT&T Universal, 6k TYP, 0/12, no fee
Barclays/Bank Atlantic Business, 0/15, $50
Juniper National Parks, 0/12, $50
CitiBusiness PremierPass, 15k TYP, 0/12, no fee
Citi PremierPass, 10k TYP, 0/12, no fee
Chase Business Rebate, $30 via cardselection.com, 0/12, $75
Chase GM Business, $30 via cardselection.com, 0/12, $75
Discover Business, $40 via cardselection.com, 0/12, $75
AMEX Plainum Business, $60 via cardselection.com, 0/12 on purchases
US Bank Baylor Alumni, 0/12, 3% no cap
Merrick Hooters Card, no promo
Chase KISS, 0/12, $75
National City Visa Business, 5k points, 0/6, no fee

Other added late due to inquiry distribution:
AMEX Blue Cash for Business, $60 via cardselection.com, 0/6 on purchases
Key Platinum, 0/12, $75 fee
PNC Platinum, 0/12, no cap
Barclay’s I Fly America, 0/12, $50
BofA Platinum Business, 0/9, no fee
American Express Blue Cash, $30 via cardselection.com, 0/15 on purchases
National City Elite Visa, 5k points, 0/6, no fee

The detailed results:

Card / Initial Status / Final Status / Credit Limit

Citi Professional / instant approval / $6,000
Citi Business / deferred / approved / $15,000
Discover Open Road (req $17k BT) / deferred / approved / $0 ($15500 CL reallocated from two existing accounts)
Advanta Business (req $20k BT) / instant approval / $12,500
National City Lifespring (req $20k BT) /deferred / approved / $10,000
Chase Sony / deferred / approved / $15,000
BofA Platinum / deferred / approved / $0 ($24400 CL reallocated from AAA card)
Citi AT&T Universal / instant approval / $4,500
Bank Atlantic Business (req $15k BT) / instant approval / $15,200
Juniper National Parks (req $15k BT) / instant approval / $7,700
Citi PremierPass Business / deferred / approved / $10000
Citi PremierPass / deferred / DENIED – TOO MANY APPLICATIONS
Chase Business Rebate / deferred / approved / $5,000
Chase GM Business / deferred / approved / $5,000
Discover Business / deferred / approved / $7,000
AMEX Plainum Business / instant approval / $17,500
US Bank Baylor Alumni / deferred / approved / $15,000
Merrick Bank Hooters / deferred / approved / $9,750
Chase KISS / deferred / DENIED - length of time since last new account
National City Visa Business / deferred / approved / $8,000

At this point I checked my Experian report using an old report number that keeps updating – only 3 new inquiries have posted: 1 AMEX, 1 Bof A, and 1 Chase. TU dispute also updated to completed, so I can pull a fresh report to see the updated investigation results – only 3 new inquiries from tonight: 2 Barclays(Juniper), 1 Merrick Bank (Hooters card). (With 20 applications and only 6 inquiries accounted for, I assume my Equifax must be trashed ). Not wanting to quit with only 3 and 3 new inquiries on TU and EXP, I quickly rounded up some more possibilities:

AMEX Blue Cash for Business (1st AMEX app pulled EXP) / instant approval / $17500
Key Platinum (app in the past had pulled TU) / deferred / DENIED - # of Inquiries (pulled EQ)
PNC Platinum (app in the past had pulled EXP) / deferred / DENIED - "residence is outside of defined trade area"
Barclay’s I Fly America (1st & 2nd Barclay’s apps pulled TU) / deferred / DENIED - sufficient credit with Juniper
BofA Platinum Business (1st BofA app pulled EXP) / deferrred / Approved / $14,000 (plus $10,000 from existing line, total line on new account $24k)
American Express Blue Cash (1st AMEX apps pulled EXP) / instant approval / $2000
National City Elite Visa / computer error, not submitted

Summary Results:
26 applications submitted
8 instant approvals
Zero instant denials
13 deferred applications approved
5 application denied

Bonuses: $275 via cardselection.com, 51,000 TYPs, $100 Sony credit

New credit lines – Personal $69,950; Business $126,700

Credit Pulls: (location - NY, all applications submitted evening of 10/6)

Equifax - 6 total
10/6 - Citi x2, Discover x1, Advanta
10/7 - Citi x1, Key Bank (listed as Citi)

Experian - 8 total
10/6 - BofA x2, Chase x1, AMEX x1
10/7 - Chase x2, AMEX x1, US Bank x1

TransUnion - 7* total
10/6 - Barclays x3, Merrick,
10/7*- National City x2*, PNC*
*I have not yet pulled an updated TU report that shows them, but I listed NatCity and PNC as TU by elimination - they definately did not pull EQ or EXP

Couldnt have asked for better distribution. I can now see why no applications were auto-denied due to too many inquiries.
Citi pulled 3x for 5 apps, Chase 3x for 4 apps, Discover 1x for 2 apps, AMEX 2x for 3 apps.

0% Money Drawn:
Personal: (amt drawn/CL)
BofA - $22000/$24400 (90%)
Chase Sony - $15000/$21000 (71%)
Juniper NP - $6500/$7700 (84%)
National City - $9000/$10000 (90%)
Unused Personal Accounts - $0/$57500 (0%)
Overall utilization - $52500/$120600 (43.5%)
Including HELOC ($0/$89000) - total utilization 25%

Business:
Bank Atlantic - $14950/$15200
Citi Biz - $14900/$15000 (waiting for BT check)
Citi Biz PremierPass - $9900/$10000
Chase GM Biz - $17500/$18000
AMEX Plat - $5000/$17500 (purchases, via Google Checkout - plan to stop at $10k)
AMEX Blue Cash Biz - $3000/$17500 (purchases, via Google Checkout - plan to stop at $10k)
Advanta - $12400/$12500
BofA - $23000/$24000 (no fee, after various issues and a 1 hour phone call to straighten out)
Discover - $22000/$22500 (Pending, waiting for BT checks to arrive in the mail)
Overall - $122650/$152200

BT fees paid:
Personal - $125
Biz - $200 (plus $75 for Disc, unless I decide to use the 'Purchase Checks' instead)

Fees offset by - $275 from Cardselection, $100 statement credit from Sony card, and 51k TYP.

Total BT money: $175150
HELOC payoff $62000 - estimated 11-month interest savings $4,000
Biz installment loan payoff $21500 - estimated 11-month interest savings $2,000
Savings deposits - $91650 - estimated 11-month interest earnings $3,500

Total estimated AOR 'profit' - $9,500

Notes:
-Bank Atlantic Business – don’t know why I only requested a $15k BT with the app instead of the max $20k. This might have been an additional $5,000 left on the table.

-From Baylor Alumni card on, the purpose is to pad available credit to help global utilization (except National City card, 0%/no fee but didn’t want to waste an inquiry early on for a 6-month offer)

-Not sure if I should attempt another Citi appication as it has been widely reported that 5 is the max allowed for Citi (if you choose the correct cards, which I obviously did not. I would try the Hilton HHonors card next); at this point I think it is moot and would not be approved regardless.

-Personal AMEX cards will be used to bump global available credit, but I will not risk large balances triggering a FR due to reasons stated previously. May churn purchases for Cash Back using Google Checkout until the end of the year, but will not carry a balance through a statement period.

-Called Discover to ask about app status. Was told the second application – the Business Card - was denied; per you can only have 3 cards at one time. Asked if this was correct due to the Business App using a TID, was transferred to the Business department, where she approved the application on the spot. Not sure if this screws the other app, or if the business account with a TID doesn’t count towards the 3 maximum.

And a question I have yet to figure out definitively – does my $89,000 HELOC count towards utilization calculations? As BTs process and 0% balances are used to pay down the HELOC, will my utilization factor remain the same (as my global debt level will remain the same) or skyrocket as the balance is moved to unsecured accounts? I want to stay at ~50% global utilization, but don’t know if I should include the $89k limit in the calculation or not.

10/12/07 - Called BofA and was transfered to a credit analyist for an immediate decision. Was approved without hesitation, but had to reallocate from AAA card ($24,400) since I am at my max overall credit limit with them. Rep offered to do a BT at that time too - 0% for 12 months, no fee. The point of this notation is to confirm that, despite notices eliminating BT caps and the general BofA trend towards no-cap BT fees, yes this offer with no BT fee is still valid.

I do not have a HELOC so this is not a definite answer but based on what many others have reported.
does my $89,000 HELOC count towards utilization calculations?Yes
As BTs process and 0% balances are used to pay down the HELOC, will my utilization factor remain the same (as my global debt level will remain the same) or skyrocket as the balance is moved to unsecured accounts?Remain the same.

You might want to ask these questions at myFICO, I am sure they would have a definite answer or close to it. You can sign up for Score Watch (30 day trial) and get two EX reports and scores (shows utilization). You can also try their Identity Theft Security for 4.95 (MW01 for 25% off). This gives you one TU report and score (also shows utilization).

markkundinger said: I really would have recommended getting some sort of credit score before applying, just to make sure.

Really not sure what happened with the Citibank apps. Your experience definitely contradicts the conventional wisdom.

No 0% BT deal from AMEX? You could always play it real conservative with them, and only declare your HHI to be what shows on your taxes last year.Thanks for your comments. I reviewed all three of my reports prior (when disputing the balances I had just paid off) and there was no opportunites to improve my score regardless of what it was. The only purpose would have been to evaluate the damage by comparing pre- and post- AOR scores. The only thing I was disappointed about was the HELOC balance showing - I thought I'd have a couple weeks with absolutely no debt reported to boost results. I thought about disputing the account just prior (to see if it would cause the balance to be ignored while being disputed), but didnt have a valid reason to dispute.

As for AMEX, I decided to skip using them, and just add the credit lines to my overall available credit to lower utilization. I figure I now can be a bit more agressive with utilization on a couple other cards. My most recent personal tax return only shows a bit of interest income and a traditional-to-ROTH IRA conversion (low enough so that zero personal income tax was paid last year), so even going conservative with HHI as suggested wouldn't have helped.

And the 2 AMEX Business cards have 0% on purchases, which I've already begun to build up via fee-free Google Checkout (between my personal google account and my legit business google account; in the business records it just shows as a cash advance from the credit card to checking so no tax issues). I figure as long as I dont run through a $15k charge at once, there shouldnt be an issue as the two Google accounts are completely unrelated (different emails, physical addresses, etc).

i would stay away from juniper just because of all adverse action they go through with commonly after an AOR. they closed my 2 cards after an AOR citing an increase in risk. for others they have cut lines to right above the amount that was transferred.

I just think they are shady and wouldn't even bother with them.

bassmanben said: i would stay away from juniper just because of all adverse action they go through with commonly after an AOR. they closed my 2 cards after an AOR citing an increase in risk. for others they have cut lines to right above the amount that was transferred.

I just think they are shady and wouldn't even bother with them.

not a problem if you move your personal CL to business. Who cares if they cut your CL and your utilization goes from 98% to 99%? (which is even less likely if you follow this strategy.)

As I've said many times, move as much of your credit card investment activities as possible to business cards. My wife and I now have almost no personal credit with Citi, Chase, or Juniper, but we still have about $300K of their BT money sitting in the bank (credit union, to be more precise. )

On Friday I requested a credit reallocation from MY BofA AAA card to the new card just approved. On Saturday (24 hours later), the updated credit limit is reported for my AAA card - $500. The new card has not been reported yet. So, I've had the available credit showing on my report temporarily reduced by $24,400 until this new account is reported.

Lesson - if you are reallocating within BofA but have high balances/utilization issues, wait until the card receiving the reallocated limit has been reported before requesting the reallocation.

lhendricks92 said:
not a problem if you move your personal CL to business. Who cares if they cut your CL and your utilization goes from 98% to 99%? (which is even less likely if you follow this strategy.)

As I've said many times, move as much of your credit card investment activities as possible to business cards. I understand your point, but this does not apply to my situation. As stated, my primary goal was to accumulate enough 0% money to pay off my home loan for another year. My business cards are under a legit Corp with a Tax ID number. Money cannot be transfered from the business lines for personal use without tax implications, so I have to keep enough personal credit to safely accomodate the personal debt while maintaining a reasonable utilization %.

glxpass said: Glitch99 said: BofA Plat Plus offer w/no transaction fee. Havent gotten the card, or even approved yet, so just going by the terms of the offer. We'll see when it gets processed.

Edit - called in today, spoke with credit specialist, and was approved - I'm maxed out with existing BofA limits, so had to reallocate credit line from AAA Visa (as I expected). Then processed a $22k no fee transfer to my checking. So yes, this link/application with no transfer fee is still valid.

Fixed LinkSorry - Fixed links on main app list in OP, too.

Was approved for the personal Discover Card today. So the alleged 3-card limit does not include a business card under a tax ID. I had to reallocate from my existing limits though, they did offer me an additional $8000 but would have required proof of income.

I dont know if reaching the max limit with them includes my new Disc Business card ($7k limit) or not. If not, I'm pondering if I should reallocate all of my personal line to the business card, then begin to rebuild my personal limit back up to where it is now with no-pull CLIs and new apps in the future.

I guess it depends on if the business card will report on my personal credit - I've read numerous situations where it does, but they all seem to have used SS#s, not TaxIDs. I want to believe that mine will NOT report, due to using the corp's TaxID. I'd much rather get a business line of $21k and max it out (with no personal account balances), than have a $7k business line maxed out and $15k personal line at 50%. But if that business line does pop up on my report, I'd be screwed.

Anyone with relative experience to share?

Glitch99 said: lhendricks92 said:
not a problem if you move your personal CL to business. Who cares if they cut your CL and your utilization goes from 98% to 99%? (which is even less likely if you follow this strategy.)

As I've said many times, move as much of your credit card investment activities as possible to business cards. I understand your point, but this does not apply to my situation. As stated, my primary goal was to accumulate enough 0% money to pay off my home loan for another year. My business cards are under a legit Corp with a Tax ID number. Money cannot be transfered from the business lines for personal use without tax implications, so I have to keep enough personal credit to safely accomodate the personal debt while maintaining a reasonable utilization %.

I, too, have a "legitimate" corporation that I use for my credit card investing. I'm not convinced there are tax implications if Chase's money never moves through your business. If you write a BT check to yourself, and you pay it back with personal funds, where is the tax issue? Chase has loaned you money, and you pay it back. The IRS is not involved.

My 2 cents...I could be wrong.

my contention is that Chase (not your corporation) is giving you a loan. "business" credit cards are just glorious personal cards - they almost always require a personal guarantee.

MikeR397 said: In effect, the corporation is giving you a free personal loan. As long as the interest is earned in a personal account, and not earned in a corporate account, I think the tax consequences are on you personally, and do not need be reflected in a companies tax filing. I'm concerned about the loan between the corp and personal, not interest earnings from having the funds in a personal account. The loan from the corp could be construed to be a distribution and thus taxable, and worst-case it be considered co-mingling of funds and invalidate the corporate entity altogether.

Glitch99 said: lhendricks92 said: my contention is that Chase (not your corporation) is giving you a loan. "business" credit cards are just glorious personal cards - they almost always require a personal guarantee.I'm torn - I see this side, but also that the account is a corporate account based on the corporate TaxID. So in effect the Corp is borrowing the money and then lending it to you personally, even though it doesnt flow through the corp checking account.

I think I'm going to use your interpretation with my Biz Discover Card - never even put that account on the Corp books like it doesnt exist. I just would like some confirmation that the Biz account (using a TaxID, NOT SS#) will not pop up on my credit report - like others w/sole proprietor accounts have had happen - before maxing it out.

I can confirm that a "corporate" Discover Business card will not appear on your credit report.

Glitch99 said: MikeR397 said: In effect, the corporation is giving you a free personal loan. As long as the interest is earned in a personal account, and not earned in a corporate account, I think the tax consequences are on you personally, and do not need be reflected in a companies tax filing. I'm concerned about the loan between the corp and personal, not interest earnings from having the funds in a personal account. The loan from the corp could be construed to be a distribution and thus taxable, and worst-case it be considered co-mingling of funds and invalidate the corporate entity altogether.

on the taxation issue, i don't want to oversell my interpretation of tax law - i'm no CPA. honestly, i had never considered your concern (and i consider myself fairly conservative when it comes to taxes.)

at the very least, i'm assuming the IRS would have no knowledge of how your corporation was involved in the transaction. if they looked at your company's books, they would see nothing. if they looked a canceled check, it would be from Chase to Mr. Glitch99. they would have to look at your Chase business card account, and i'm not sure why they would.

regardless, this is an important issue. let us know if you get a professional clarification.

Meltz said: Quick question - how were you able to do the BTs to your HELOC?I requested it . Just entered the HELOC account number on the app. Most apps will take it, some will ask for the payment address, some will accept it but not process it due to a non-CC account number. Then simply call up and the CSRs at most issuers (Bank Atlantic Business being the lone exception I know of) are more than happy to take the payment address/info and resubmit the request.

The Sony card showed up in my online profile, so I tried calling to request a BT before I got the actual card. Big no-no, I guess. As soon as I punched in the last 4# of the new card (all that was listed online) I was immediately transfered to the fraud dept, where they asked for answers to numerous questions about personal info - including model/year of my most recent car purchased (paid cash and was never financed?), and my father's birth month???????? WTF???? All to find out they need the 3-digit CID from the back of the card to process a BT anyways.

Lesson - patience is a virtue, atleast with Chase. Wait for the card before trying to use the card (duh!).

lhendricks92 said: you should get a blank BT check when the card comes. no need to actually transfer a balance. Had to do some reallocating first as well (adding an existing $5k to the $15k that came with the card), and since it's all going to end up in my HELOC I figured I'd make the request to pay it directly rather than wait. But they wont touch the account (even reallocating additional lines to it) until I have the card in hand.

im no cpa or tax attorney, but have had experience with corporate and personal tax issues

anytime money goes from corp to personal or personal to corp it HAS to be classified as a loan to either party, a distribution (if from corp to personal) or a investment (if personal to corp)....and anytime you classify it as a loan, there has to be reasonable interest paid to either party...not just 1%, and not 30%, reasonable...which may mean 7%.

Worse yet, if you do too much of this corp to personal loans back and forth without leaving a paper trail or atleast documenting the true needs of something like this, you could loose the limited liability the corp gives you and in a case courts may use that to "pierce the corporate veil".....corporate and personal need to be as seperate as possible

if this was a sole proprietorship on the other hand it wouldn't have been that big of an issue

and, btw, thank you for taking the time out to post all these details and advice, and good luck with successfully completing your AOR!

nanotech2 said: anytime money goes from corp to personal or personal to corp it HAS to be classified as a loan to either party, a distribution (if from corp to personal) or a investment (if personal to corp)....and anytime you classify it as a loan, there has to be reasonable interest paid to either party...not just 1%, and not 30%, reasonable...which may mean 7%.

yes, you're correct, but that's not the issue. the question is whether a check payable to Mr. Glitch from Chase on a business credit card constitutes a loan from Glitch, Inc. to Mr. Glitch. If not, no worries. I contend the transaction is a loan from Chase to Mr. Glitch because money never passes through Glitch, Inc.

The cash-out is almost complete.

0% Money Drawn:
Personal: (amt drawn/CL)
BofA - $22000/$24400 (90%)
Chase Sony - $15000/$21000 (71%)
Juniper NP - $6500/$7700 (84%)
National City - $9000/$10000 (90%)
Unused Personal Accounts - $0/$57500 (0%)
Overall utilization - $52500/$120600 (43.5%)
Including HELOC ($0/$89000) - total utilization 25%

Business:
Bank Atlantic - $14950/$15200
Citi Biz - $14900/$15000 (waiting for BT check)
Citi Biz PremierPass - $9900/$10000
Chase GM Biz - $17500/$18000
AMEX Plat - $5000/$17500 (purchases, via Google Checkout - plan to stop at $10k)
AMEX Blue Cash Biz - $3000/$17500 (purchases, via Google Checkout - plan to stop at $10k)
Advanta - $12400/$12500
BofA - $22000/$24000 (hasnt posted yet, anticipating having to request fee refund)
Discover - $22000/$22500 (Pending, waiting for BT checks to arrive in the mail)
Overall - $121650/$152200

BT fees paid:
Personal - $125
Biz - $200 (plus $75 for Disc, unless I decide to use the 'Purchase Checks' instead)

Fees offset by - $275 from Cardselection, $100 statement credit from Sony card.

Total BT money: $174150
HELOC payoff $62000 - estimated 11-month interest savings $4,000
Biz installment loan payoff $21500 - estimated 11-month interest savings $2,000
Savings deposits - $90650 - estimated 11-month interest earnings $3,500

Total estimated AOR 'profit' - $9,500

markkundinger said: US Bank gave you 0.85% Cash Back on your balance transfers??The BT has been the only activity on the card, and there weren't any sign-up or other bonus. So it looks like it. Since no one else has mentioned this, its probably a fluke technical glitch, but I'm not complaining. We'll see if/when the cash-out check arrives, but since its been almost a year since it posted I doubt they'd deny/reverse it.