I too see this leading to more documentation requests/hoops to jump through to show the business is viabile and has the means to repay

Why? They've gotten a PG, and issued the credit line based on the fact that I have the ability to repay. It's not like I'm insulated from liability because they're 'business' cards.

Personally I don't see any reason why a business owner can't appoint a proxy to take care of his biz credit. I doubt Bill Gates fills out the applications for his Microsoft cards. If OP had his wife's blessing I don't see any fraud.

Glitch99 said:And most likely biz accounts (namely sole proprietor accounts opened under the owner's SS#) will begin to show up on personal credit reports at some point. They will go the way of the authorized user benefits - use, abuse, and outright exploit the advantage, and it will be taken away.

I find it amusing when FWFers talk about abuse and exploitation. The ENTIRE premise of credit card investing is based on abuse and exploitation. If you play by the rules and are honest on your applications, what is the problem?

When you sign up for a million credit cards and take hundreds of thousands of dollars in free money, do you tell your creditors, "I have no intention of ever paying you a dime in interest. I will forever be your most unprofitable customer"??? If not, well, that's abusive and dishonest.

sechs said:To be a business, you must have a profit motive. If you're not in business to make money -- you're not in business.

Isn't that we're talking about?

Glitch99 said:A personal guarantee provides a means to collect when the primary defaults, but in the cases of a sole proprietor the PG is worthless - the 'business' and the guarator are one and the same. Maybe they will simply begin requiring TaxID numbers instead of SS#s. Or any accounts under a SS# will be reported to that SS#'s personal credit report.

As soon as you default, the line and its derogatory status get reported. No one has said business credit is a blank check to rack up high levels of debt with no consequences.

Glitch99 said:
They are being abused allowing people to hide high balances off-report, where they are not hurting their ability to access to even more credit.

MBNA billpay and rolling maximization are also techniques to hide balances. Are these strategies also abusive?


Glitch99 said:
Sure, its the bank's own policies that allow this. But as there are more and more defaults from overextended 'sole-proprietors' who do not have (and never had) any business revenue, the scruntiny will tighten to ensure the 'business' is a viable lending risk on its own merits - with or without a PG.

I don't see people to be any more likely to default on sole-proprietor business lines than personal lines. If you can manage your personal credit, you can handle your business credit, and vice versa. Regardless, if you default, you'll suffer the same damage with biz or personal credit.

lhendricks92 said:Glitch99 said:And most likely biz accounts (namely sole proprietor accounts opened under the owner's SS#) will begin to show up on personal credit reports at some point. They will go the way of the authorized user benefits - use, abuse, and outright exploit the advantage, and it will be taken away.

I find it amusing when FWFers talk about abuse and exploitation. The ENTIRE premise of credit card investing is based on abuse and exploitation. If you play by the rules and are honest on your applications, what is the problem?

When you sign up for a million credit cards and take hundreds of thousands of dollars in free money, do you tell your creditors, "I have no intention of ever paying you a dime in interest. I will forever be your most unprofitable customer"??? If not, well, that's abusive and dishonest.I'm not talking about the savy, responsible FW who invests the CC money for profit before paying it back in a timely manner. That is following the bank's terms and conditions that they establish for your own gain - yes, exploiting an opportunity. I would even say that 'credit card investing' could be the sole nature of the business that is opening the biz cards.

I'm talking about those who have been jumping on the bandwagon, but using the biz cards to finance their personal lives - since they dont/no longer have the means to do so with their personal credit. People are beginning to use biz credit to delay the inevitable consequences of an unsustainable lifestyle - that isnt exploiting the terms of an offer, that is abusing the system. As more people start treating biz and personal credit as being homogeneous, the issuers will begin to as well.

hoope4 said:They pay the price when irresposible lendees become unable to pay back the money.EXACTLY. And as that price gets higher, the reigns will get tighter.

Glitch99 said:I'm not talking about the savy, responsible FW who invests the CC money for profit before paying it back in a timely manner. That is following the bank's terms and conditions that they establish for your own gain - yes, exploiting an opportunity. I would even say that 'credit card investing' could be the sole nature of the business that is opening the biz cards.

That is exactly what I'm advocating and the purpose of Mike's biz credit thread. It's a strategy. The intention of the strategy is NOT to rack up more debt. I'm sure people have used SIS's orignal A0R stategy to get themselves into trouble as well. I'm still failing to see the distinction.

Glitch99 said:
I'm talking about those who have been jumping on the bandwagon, but using the biz cards to finance their personal lives - since they dont/no longer have the means to do so with their personal credit. People are beginning to use biz credit to delay the inevitable consequences of an unsustainable lifestyle - that isnt exploiting the terms of an offer, that is abusing the system.

I don't see how this is possible. If your personal credit is maxed out, how are you able to get business credit???
Glitch99 said:
As more people start treating biz and personal credit as being homogeneous, the issuers will begin to as well.
For the most part, they already do. You have to issue a PG. It's not as if one person can start 15 businesses, each with a new bucket of CL to play with.

SUCKISSTAPLES said:When you said "why arent the old timers" expressing their concern, I assume you are referring to me. I HAVE strongly voiced my concern, in several threads about recent strategies promoted (mainly by MikeR397) but I dont want to seem as if I am "poopooing" on all his threads. Hes a creative thinker. I have noted these discussions are being followed by naive, greedy people and will lead to many more threads like this. But these threads on juicing returns are popular , so instead of ranting within them and taking them offtopic I have chosen simply distance myself from them. FW also wants to distance themselves from them, such as in this thread advocating opening cc accounts for family members'

http://www.fatwallet.com/t/52/754626/11007606#m11007606

Thats what OP did here, open an account for someone else. He made up fake info on a fake business and used his wifes ID. None of that is kosher. It does not matter that promotion of these strategies is getting lots of green, not only here but on the credit deadbeat forums. The more idiots blindly taking what they see and lying to make an extra few $$ will not only cause their downfall, but make it more difficult for those who ARE honest

In regards to the OP, I agree that lying about your business and opening cards on behalf of someone else without their permission are bad ideas. (I don't know if that's what actually happened in this case.)

SIS, this is the first time I've heard you express concerns with the business credit strategy. I take your concerns very seriously, which is why I've jumped into this discussion. In all honesty, I see a lot of problems with MikeR397's family A0R thread (tax consequence, for one), but I'm failing to see any problems (taxes, fraud, ethics, etc.) with using business credit to juice your credit card investing returns. If I'm missing something, and you'd prefer not to expose the rest of the community to a potentially abusive idea, feel free to PM me.

lhendricks92 said:In regards to the OP, I agree that lying about your business and opening cards on behalf of someone else without their permission are bad ideas. (I don't know if that's what actually happened in this case.)

SIS, this is the first time I've heard you express concerns with the business credit strategy. I take your concerns very seriously, which is why I've jumped into this discussion.

Theres no "permission" requirement to make applying for someone else OK. I understand that most people "dont see anytthing wrong with" opening a card for your wife or someone else, if that person says its OK, but that doesnt mean its correct. Go ahead and ask the supervisors at the cc issuers if you dont believe me.

If you have a business, (and that could be something as simple as an eBay business), theres nothing wrong with getting business cards using your honest personal info and your supportable income figures. But most people asking about getting business credit are asking how they can LIE to get it...They make up a fake business name, fake business income, fake business owner. Then when they dont have a DBA, business license, LLC docs, or supportable income to withstand review, they come crying for help (as in this thread).

Glitch99 said:As mentioned in the past, a few years ago I financed the purchase of my business using 0% credit card promos. This was before learning the 'benefits' of biz cards, so it was all on personal accounts. Although at 0% rates, I had high utilization and high balances, and any personal application I submitted would be instantly denied (not even defered).

Still, Chase hit me up with a $9k biz line, Advanta with $3k, and BofA with 3 (three!) $5k lines - one 'preapproved' each time I opened a biz checking account. All without hesitation.

(Full disclosure: I was using a TaxID for the business not a SS#, but the Corp was newly established and had no history of its own)

Wow, that's surprising. I'm wondering if having an actual corp helped.

OK, let me see if I have your argument straight and we can get on the same page...

1) It's OK for savvy credit card investors to start investment sole proprietorships to apply for business credit.
2) It's OK for people with maxed out personal credit to apply for business credit for their legitimate businesses (preferably corporations?)
3) It's NOT OK people with maxed out personal credit to apply for business credit for their bogus sole proprietorships solely for the intention of buying more trinkets. It's these people who will make it harder for the people in situation #2 to get business credit.

Correct?