I have two MLM experiences to share. The first one left me unsure exactly what was being peddled as I didn't follow it up to the end. Only after the second one happened and I found out it was a Quixtar MLM scam did I recognize the signature patterns of behavior of the Quixtar "sponsors" (vague about info about the "business opportunity", promises of easy money offered by this "business opportunity", "residual income", talking about job insecurity and trying to make people feel vulnerable, turning up with their spouses, etc etc etc).
It was very strange that both MLM experiences happened with Quixtar "sponsors" who were Indian. As reported in this thread, I believe this is because these Indian guys, being immigrants knowing nothing about scams that happen in the US, were easy targets themselves. These did not seem like the high-end Indian guys though, though they were obviously not low-end either [low end being taxi drivers, mid-level being reasonably well-educated contract workers from Indian companies like TCS, Wipro, Infosys, etc, and high-end being extremely well-educated Indians with MS/MBA/PhD degrees from US universities who are way above the level of people who can be dazzled with promises of "150K per year residual income"].
Indeed both the "sponsors" I met seemed to genuinely believe that they were trying to "start their own business". They both were rather gullible and naive though; I could see that they had fallen for the Quixtar kool-aid hook line and sinker. I asked them questions that they could not answer and had obviously had never thought of. These were questions that anyone looking to "start a business" should think of.
I felt bad for these poor guys. Both were married and one has a very young kid. Their wives seemed very wide-eyed about this whole "business" too.
The first time I was approached was a few years back, in the BART station in the SF Bay Area. The second time I was approached was at a shopping mall in the NYC area.
The first time I met the "sponsor" once. He came to the appointment very late and only out of politeness and curiosity I waited for him. But due to this unpunctuality I had a very bad impression of him from the get-go. After the meeting, which did not impress me as he was being so vague and secretive about everything, I told him I'm not interested. He kept calling me for several months after that. I kept ignoring his calls. Finally he stopped calling.
The second "sponsor" (in NYC) seems less unprofessional (hasn't been late the two times we've met). The second meeting involved me attending their "speaker presentation" at a Comfort Suites in the NYC area. The speaker was another Indian guy; but this guy was a better speaker. In the room were lots of Indians (80% men, 20% women), a couple of African-American guys, an African-American young woman, a middle-aged white guy, a very young white guy (about 19 I'd guess), and a young white guy (late 20's, early 30's).
He asked me to dress formally. I didn't [I don't let secretive and suspicious people with vague "business proposals" to tell me how I should dress]. Most people there were dressed formally.
My "sponsor" said that since Indians are doing this, I should have no worries about doing it, as Indians are very careful and cautious people. Especially Indians with young kids.
I felt bad that so many of them had and were being conned into this scam where 99% of them would lose money (small amounts; a few thousand a year), vast amounts of time, and practically all their friends.
At the end of the presentation the speaker said "Don't talk to anybody about this. Don't use Google. Make your own decision with the facts and figures in our information packet."
The presentation was quite slick. Since I had already seen SIS's thread about MLM scams and Quixtar, I was not moved by their pitch at all, but if I hadn't I might have gotten a bit confused at least initially with all those promises of easy money. Though I'd like to think that I'd never have fallen for a scam like this [what is the value proposition? what is the business model? what is the value chain? who are the major players?] after all the business classes I took while getting my PhD, thanks SIS for making it so much easier for me to discard all the bullshit they threw at me!!!
Simple way to deal with this bullshit, which I even actually told the "sponsor": "Don't tell me about money any more. One of my cardinal rules in life is that I never allow greed (or fear) to sway me. You talk about money and I'll filter it right out of my decision-making process."
They target people who they think are not affluent and slightly in need of money, who would be easy targets for their "easy money" pitch. And yet have enough money to waste on buying their crap and their "motivational materials".
Very low.
I'm not in need of money by the grace of God, but I'm not very fashion-conscious, so I guess their recruiters ("sponsors") thought I'd jump in joy and join their cult hearing vague promises of easy money.
Anakin
Edit: added names of common MLM scams to title to people can search, as suggested by jayK.
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Ecuadorgr said:I don't understand. You say you don't fall for scams, you even have a phD, yet you spend all this time going to meetings, talking about them etc?
I didn't spend that much time on these people. One hour on first guy, 30 minutes on second guy, plus one hour on the "speaker presentation" as I was curious to see what they say. [plus one and half hours travel+waiting time overall].
I can spare that much time right now. And I reported on my experience as suggested by SIS in his original thread linked in my OP, so that other FWF'ers can benefit from the time I spent in finding out about these MLM creeps.
I never trust people peddling things in public. I've been approached in shopping malls, and bookstores. I would never give them my phone #, because my friend did once and the guy caled 10x a day. The people who make the most money in these businesses, are the executives running the scheme.
anakinskywalker said:I had already seen SIS's thread about MLM scams and Quixtar, I was not moved by their pitch at all, but if I hadn't I might have gotten a bit confused at least initially with all those promises of easy money. Though I'd like to think that I'd never have fallen for a scam like this [what is the value proposition? what is the business model? what is the value chain? who are the major players?] after all the business classes I took while getting my PhD, thanks SIS for making it so much easier for me to discard all the bullshit they threw at me!!!
If I have helped just one person to spot/avoid wasting money on an MLM, then Ive done my job. Ive considered reviving the MLM threads, but they always degenerate when the MLM believers start posting.
PolarDude said:I never trust people peddling things in public. I've been approached in shopping malls, and bookstores. I would never give them my phone #, because my friend did once and the guy caled 10x a day. The people who make the most money in these businesses, are the executives running the scheme.
OP, you might want to include the names of some of the common MLM scams in the title of the thread, so it will show up when people do google searches of said scams.
Some people cannot be helped to avoid scams. Some do not want to be helped, because they hope to prey on others.
For everybody else, there is common sense that if it was that good the salespeople would be making money from the product rather than recruiting, and recognition that ignorance and greed will lead to bad decisions.
IMO the East Indian community are suckers for MLM scams because of their tendency to rely on information from within the group, and a very strong social inter-dependency. MLMs are parasitic in nature, and the group is the host. Religious groups can be easy prey for the same reasons. The mormons come to mind as a recent example, for those who remember the dailypro scam.
A few years ago, I had a chance to listen to a 'motivational' speech from the doorway. I walked away nauseated after a few minutes. Feeling manipulated does that to me.
EricGo07 said:Some people cannot be helped to avoid scams. Some do not want to be helped, ..That's why the "sucker" list is worth so much to scammers. Some of us learned fast after one lesson but many are chasing one get rich scheme after another till the day they die, broke.
Close knit group tend to be the hotbed of MLM activity. Military, church, PTA, etc.. When I work briefly in a mall I was approached no less then 3 times by young white couple with babies, I think they all go to the same church. Indian on visa working for tech firms are their new target. They tend to approach strangers in mall and/or department stores with "business" opportunity.
I remember the first time ever where I set up an appointment to meet an MLM while workin in a mall. I was young yet when this dude showed me a picture of a guy in front of "his" private learjet I almost laughed out loud. I was young but not that stupid. He didn't even buy me a drink, which speaks volume.
My parents was approached repeatly by MLMer while they had a little corner store, this was back in the 80s. One character drove an sports car with a "voice" alarm, ie "STAND BACK, WARNING, STAND BACK".
My brother has a PhD and he does that Market America bullcrap. He pretty much made it his full time job. I can't have friends or family come to the house without him trying to sell them crap or get them to be his business partner.
I went to one of these MLM meetings and I realized it was a scam the instant I walked in and was introduced to a pimply-faced "manager" with braces who was younger than I was supposedly making 6 figures. It reminded me of the squeaky voiced teenager from the Simpsons.
I have a relative who has done very well financially in a MLM.
He beat the odds and made it into the top tier of a telephone/communications MLM.
He drives an incredibly nice car (I think it's called a Maybach -- or something like that) and he flies around giving speeches pumping up the junior MLMers.
He left his regular job about 5-6 years ago.... I enjoy using his vacation home to go skiing.
But I can't help but think you lose a little of your soul in that position.
The top guys have to know that 99%+ of the people who join will never make it. Worse, many will expend lots of money and time and then not make it. And they know it. An experienced MLMer can usually easily identify those who don't have the skills necessary to make it in that realm.
But you move them along with motivational speeches and "friendship" and a dream at the end of the rainbow that never arrives. You milk them and milk them for all the product that they will buy, for all the relatives and friends of theirs that they will sign up...and then you discard them when ultimately they realize that the dream is unachievable. They just didn't have what it takes...blah blah blah...
My relative (who I have talked with about this) responds that it is just a business in capitalism like any other. Many try to make it to the top in any given industry, and only a few make it.
I think they must lose a little of their soul.
Interestingly, another MLM that pushes blueberry juice has recruited him with lots of $$$. I was not aware that these guys could move from MLM to MLM in a way that did not require them to rebuild a downline in the new company. It would kind of seem to violate one of the advertised 'values' of some MLMs -- that it does not matter who you are or where you come from, that you can make it to the top and be rich...
I HAVE NEVER participated in an MLM. But I am fully supportive of MLM's. Yes, MLM are really recruitment tools. Typically 80% of a MLM company's revenue is from recruiting new members & current members buying their own products. The people that I know that work full time in MLM companies are great people. They work really hard to train & develop the people below them. It is just that most new recruits become uninterested and drop out of the program and cry "scam" once they do.
RationalCrust said:He drives an incredibly nice car (I think it's called a Maybach -- or something like that)Fatwallet Rule 269: Just because someone drives a car, doesn't mean they can afford it.
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