Current MLM Scams Thread: Quixtar, Amway, Primerica, Mary Kay etc

The comprehensive and extremely helpful thread started by SIS on MLM-type scame is now archived. Indeed, all the MLM scam threads except this oneseem to have become archived.

I have two MLM experiences to share. The first one left me unsure exactly what was being peddled as I didn't follow it up to the end. Only after the second one happened and I found out it was a Quixtar MLM scam did I recognize the signature patterns of behavior of the Quixtar "sponsors" (vague about info about the "business opportunity", promises of easy money offered by this "business opportunity", "residual income", talking about job insecurity and trying to make people feel vulnerable, turning up with their spouses, etc etc etc).

It was very strange that both MLM experiences happened with Quixtar "sponsors" who were Indian. As reported in this thread, I believe this is because these Indian guys, being immigrants knowing nothing about scams that happen in the US, were easy targets themselves. These did not seem like the high-end Indian guys though, though they were obviously not low-end either [low end being taxi drivers, mid-level being reasonably well-educated contract workers from Indian companies like TCS, Wipro, Infosys, etc, and high-end being extremely well-educated Indians with MS/MBA/PhD degrees from US universities who are way above the level of people who can be dazzled with promises of "150K per year residual income"].

Indeed both the "sponsors" I met seemed to genuinely believe that they were trying to "start their own business". They both were rather gullible and naive though; I could see that they had fallen for the Quixtar kool-aid hook line and sinker. I asked them questions that they could not answer and had obviously had never thought of. These were questions that anyone looking to "start a business" should think of.

I felt bad for these poor guys. Both were married and one has a very young kid. Their wives seemed very wide-eyed about this whole "business" too.

The first time I was approached was a few years back, in the BART station in the SF Bay Area. The second time I was approached was at a shopping mall in the NYC area.

The first time I met the "sponsor" once. He came to the appointment very late and only out of politeness and curiosity I waited for him. But due to this unpunctuality I had a very bad impression of him from the get-go. After the meeting, which did not impress me as he was being so vague and secretive about everything, I told him I'm not interested. He kept calling me for several months after that. I kept ignoring his calls. Finally he stopped calling.

The second "sponsor" (in NYC) seems less unprofessional (hasn't been late the two times we've met). The second meeting involved me attending their "speaker presentation" at a Comfort Suites in the NYC area. The speaker was another Indian guy; but this guy was a better speaker. In the room were lots of Indians (80% men, 20% women), a couple of African-American guys, an African-American young woman, a middle-aged white guy, a very young white guy (about 19 I'd guess), and a young white guy (late 20's, early 30's).

He asked me to dress formally. I didn't [I don't let secretive and suspicious people with vague "business proposals" to tell me how I should dress]. Most people there were dressed formally.

My "sponsor" said that since Indians are doing this, I should have no worries about doing it, as Indians are very careful and cautious people. Especially Indians with young kids.

I felt bad that so many of them had and were being conned into this scam where 99% of them would lose money (small amounts; a few thousand a year), vast amounts of time, and practically all their friends.

At the end of the presentation the speaker said "Don't talk to anybody about this. Don't use Google. Make your own decision with the facts and figures in our information packet."

The presentation was quite slick. Since I had already seen SIS's thread about MLM scams and Quixtar, I was not moved by their pitch at all, but if I hadn't I might have gotten a bit confused at least initially with all those promises of easy money. Though I'd like to think that I'd never have fallen for a scam like this [what is the value proposition? what is the business model? what is the value chain? who are the major players?] after all the business classes I took while getting my PhD, thanks SIS for making it so much easier for me to discard all the bullshit they threw at me!!!

Simple way to deal with this bullshit, which I even actually told the "sponsor": "Don't tell me about money any more. One of my cardinal rules in life is that I never allow greed (or fear) to sway me. You talk about money and I'll filter it right out of my decision-making process."

They target people who they think are not affluent and slightly in need of money, who would be easy targets for their "easy money" pitch. And yet have enough money to waste on buying their crap and their "motivational materials".

Very low.

I'm not in need of money by the grace of God, but I'm not very fashion-conscious, so I guess their recruiters ("sponsors") thought I'd jump in joy and join their cult hearing vague promises of easy money.

Anakin

Edit: added names of common MLM scams to title to people can search, as suggested by jayK.

I don't understand. You say you don't fall for scams, you even have a phD, yet you spend all this time going to meetings, talking about them etc?

I never trust people peddling things in public. I've been approached in shopping malls, and bookstores. I would never give them my phone #, because my friend did once and the guy caled 10x a day. The people who make the most money in these businesses, are the executives running the scheme.

PolarDude said: I never trust people peddling things in public. I've been approached in shopping malls, and bookstores. I would never give them my phone #, because my friend did once and the guy caled 10x a day. The people who make the most money in these businesses, are the executives running the scheme.

We should start our own MLM scheme!

hejustlaughs said:
We should start our own MLM scheme!
We have ethics/morals/souls what have you.

asdf9876 said: kamalktk said: hejustlaughs said:
We should start our own MLM scheme!
We have ethics/morals/souls what have you.

A sense of humor?
I guess mine is on the fritz today. 30 cc's of stand-up and pratfalls, stat!

EricGo07 said: Some people cannot be helped to avoid scams. Some do not want to be helped, ..That's why the "sucker" list is worth so much to scammers. Some of us learned fast after one lesson but many are chasing one get rich scheme after another till the day they die, broke.

Close knit group tend to be the hotbed of MLM activity. Military, church, PTA, etc.. When I work briefly in a mall I was approached no less then 3 times by young white couple with babies, I think they all go to the same church. Indian on visa working for tech firms are their new target. They tend to approach strangers in mall and/or department stores with "business" opportunity.

I remember the first time ever where I set up an appointment to meet an MLM while workin in a mall. I was young yet when this dude showed me a picture of a guy in front of "his" private learjet I almost laughed out loud. I was young but not that stupid. He didn't even buy me a drink, which speaks volume.

My parents was approached repeatly by MLMer while they had a little corner store, this was back in the 80s. One character drove an sports car with a "voice" alarm, ie "STAND BACK, WARNING, STAND BACK".

I went to one of these MLM meetings and I realized it was a scam the instant I walked in and was introduced to a pimply-faced "manager" with braces who was younger than I was supposedly making 6 figures. It reminded me of the squeaky voiced teenager from the Simpsons.

kamalktk said: asdf9876 said: kamalktk said: hejustlaughs said:
We should start our own MLM scheme!
We have ethics/morals/souls what have you.

A sense of humor?
I guess mine is on the fritz today. 30 cc's of stand-up and pratfalls, stat!

from "wait, wait, don't tell me":

When a game show starring groucho marx had a woman on who explained that she had six kids because she loved her husband, groucho replied?

"I love my cigar too, but I take it out every once in a while"

I HAVE NEVER participated in an MLM. But I am fully supportive of MLM's. Yes, MLM are really recruitment tools. Typically 80% of a MLM company's revenue is from recruiting new members & current members buying their own products. The people that I know that work full time in MLM companies are great people. They work really hard to train & develop the people below them. It is just that most new recruits become uninterested and drop out of the program and cry "scam" once they do.

kamalktk said: RationalCrust said:
Interestingly, another MLM that pushes blueberry juice has recruited him with lots of $$$.
goji juice?

No, a different juice.

I had never heard of goji juice until I just Googled it.

Another juice with extraordinary claims. Oh goody.

ArbolLoco said: RationalCrust said: He drives an incredibly nice car (I think it's called a Maybach -- or something like that)Fatwallet Rule 269: Just because someone drives a car, doesn't mean they can afford it.

Ain't that the truth -- especially in MLM's where 'fake it till you make it' is standard operating procedure.

In the case of my relative, I know him well enough to know that he is no longer faking it. He makes legitimate big $$$.

-------

About a lifetime ago I was sucked into a MLM called USA (United Sciences of America)...it had Joe Montana, Chris Evert, William Shatner, a bunch of PhD's and other big names involved... at the time, it was very convincing. It crashed and burned..

http://www.mlmwatch.org/04C/USA/usa.html

But I digress.

"hope" is the kind interpretation, lazy and greedy the less charitable.

Legitimate separates scam from scheme, but the product is *always* overpriced, or just plain crap.

GreatestGambler said:

From there on if anybody I meet in some Mall or in FRY’s starts talking about making extra money in spare time, I just say ‘have good day sir’ and start walking.

I just like the way you talk to random people at the Mall and FRY's. I usually don't talk to anybody.

retire35 said: GreatestGambler said:

From there on if anybody I meet in some Mall or in FRY’s starts talking about making extra money in spare time, I just say ‘have good day sir’ and start walking.

I just like the way you talk to random people at the Mall and FRY's. I usually don't talk to anybody.

Almost every time the other person starts conversation. Probably 'they' are always looking for somebody to sell their scheme.

RationalCrust said: ArbolLoco said: RationalCrust said: He drives an incredibly nice car (I think it's called a Maybach -- or something like that)Fatwallet Rule 269: Just because someone drives a car, doesn't mean they can afford it.


Ain't that the truth -- especially in MLM's where 'fake it till you make it' is standard operating procedure.

In the case of my relative, I know him well enough to know that he is no longer faking it. He makes legitimate big $$$.
No doubt, those at the top of the MLM pyramid make great money.

The "fake it till you make it"mentality is actually what gets a LOT of the non-top-tier MLM recruits in trouble. They run out and lease BMWs and Mercedes and try to give the APPEARANCE they are doing well, when reality is they are drowning in MLM-related debt.

A Maybach is certainly a nice car, and also an easy way to "fake" extreme wealth - If he was making just $6-10k/month in the MLM, a $3000/month lease for a ultraluxury car is not out of the ordinary to project his wealth toward others -isnt much more than any other marketing expense. They spend a huge % of their MLM money on marketing.

*science* PhD's who get into MLMs ? Hard to believe.

Anyone have info on E.Excel? My parents have been buying their products for me and I'd hate it if they are wasting money on some over-hyped pseudo-scientific rubbish.

cola262 said: sensia said: Trinidon2k said: My brother has a PhD and he does that Market America bullcrap. He pretty much made it his full time job. I can't have friends or family come to the house without him trying to sell them crap or get them to be his business partner.

It's sad that someone so smart can be so foolish.
PhD is not equal to smartness. I wish a PhD boss be a smart person (I mean, who is not street smart but think smart), alas, it is not!
On a side note, always stay away from any freindly indian guy in a mall. Every tiem, I tried to be a friendly person, I was drawn into the B'crap of business proposal. Now, I always hand them my Stanaphone number.
Back in grad school, we had friend that everyone wants to avoid becuase he was doing that quick* thingy that time. It was miserable to even have a drink with him without listening to the greatness of his company's great bosses.

Maybe PhD's are especially susceptable to these schemes because they are smart and hence have smart friends who went into more lucrative professions while they spent their past 5 years or so earning a meager stipend.

I don't think any of the other people at that "speaker presentation" were well-educated at all; leave alone having PhD degrees. Some of them even looked like they might easily have been working as restaurant waiters, gas-station attendants, or suchlike. No disrespect intended for the latter.

The young white guy (late 20's, early 30's) seemed very smart and well-educated from his responses (to the speaker who was constantly asking biased and one-sided leading questions trying to get people to answer in ways that would help his "case"); all the rest seemed naive, fearful, easily over-awed, and impressionable. None of those are qualities one develops by getting educated.

Most of the people seemed college students or people currently in not-too-good financial circumstances seeking better opportunities. They are being recruited to make Quixtar founders and top-level honchos rich by selling overpriced and crap shampoos and soap to their friends and family.

They were obviously targeting vulnerable people. I would like to see the people behind Quixtar and similar MLM scams go to jail. Unfortunately they may never be made to pay, as their immoral activities are unfortunately not illegal. Legality is always an approximation to morality.

Anakin

PS: some quotes:
speaker: "each friend you recruit is worth half a million dollars to you. i will show this with math. but first, can you name people you know you could recruit for your team?"

he asked people randomly and each provided a name. I was hoping he wouldn't ask me, but he did. I said point-blank "I usually don't involve people I know into something I don't know yet." [this was before he had said anything about the "business opportunity"; not mentioned Quixtar yet.] Everybody laughed and the speaker tried to ignore the comment and move on.

Another time he asked me "Is Google a search engine or a research engine?" implying that we should not search for Quixtar on google and see the negative comments on it. He asked me, expecting I'd say "search engine", so he could then say that we shouldn't research Quixtar with Google.

I said "depends on how you use it."

He never got the answers he was looking for from me.

By the end of the "presentation" I was feeling rather pissed off.

When my "sponsor" told me "this is a job that does not require any skills and you can make so much money", I said "if it does not require any skills why would the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's be any worse than you at this?"

he was stumped.

Then he said I could save 80 bucks a month by getting 32% Quixtar IBO (independent business owner) discount on the $250 I "would spend on household items anyway". I then asked him why Wal-Mart Target and Costco would be willing to lose sales to Quixtar and not lower their own prices to compete.

He could not answer.

But he still did not wake up. He's either really stupid, or really invested in this.

Quixtar was mentioned at the very end, and very defensively. We were asked repeatedly to "keep an open mind" and "not talk to anybody", "not use google", and "make our own decision" using only the material they would provide to us.

This seems to indicate that the scam is almost ending. They are running out of fresh people wjp haven't heard of Quixtar. Quixtar has already decided to phase out the Quixtar name and resurrect the Amway name in America.

Amway has been banned in China. Amway offices have been raided and shut down in several states of India.

But will they go to jail?

Edit: added details.

Uggh. Yuk. Thats the feeling I get when someone close to me hits me up with a multilevel marketing offer. A friend called me and had me and my wife get on the phone too and played a recorded offer to join Team National. You pay $400 (two years) or 2k (lifetime) to gain access to affiliate pricing on "Thousands of items you are already buying". Of course you can make money too, by selling these packages yourselves to people below you (on the PYRAMID!). Even if you don't "Share the info" (SCAM MORE PEOPLE!) you can "save thousands". No, you can't see a list of ACTUAL discounts, but here, read these many testimonials and life stories from people (WHO ARE TRYING TO GET MORE SUCKERS TO JOIN so they can gain back some of their "investment").

I doubt may Fatwallet people are dumb enough to pay money to get small discounts from retailers who would gladly email you the same discount (for example). You guys are getting the same deals through Cash Back already. But that's just it, this guy is a cool, regular guy.

After we listened to the recording, he wanted to start a conference call with someone else, presumably his higer-up, and I said,

1. No. There aint no free lunch, this sounds like MLM.
2. It must be hard to recruit your freinds for this, I don't hold it against you and I hope there will be no weirdness between us after this.

He said there would be no weirdness.

I feel revolted, almost as if I fell for it, and not him.

Just venting.