I've been thinking of scaling down my next AOR due to changing market conditions. I figure it would be useful to make a list of those banks least likely to take adverse action on the AOR crowd. This list seems easiest to assemble from the bottom up, and judging by various posts (including SIS's Adverse Action thread), it would look something like what's in the QS.

In an attempt at being quantitative, the number after each entry represents the number of entries I found in the abovementioned thread over the past year. Of course these numbers are skewed, since larger issuers (and those issuers that give out more 0% offers) will tend to have more reports of adverse action. Oh, and past results are not indicative of future performance

The big factor that skews any results is the "user stupidity" factor that triggers adverse action.

Ive never had any adverse action, even though I AOR, carry large BTs, have tons of debt reporting, tons of inquiries reporting, dont play bumpage games, etc.

Practically every thread in this forum complaining of adverse action mentions in passing (sometimes buried somewhere long after the OP) of the stupid mistake/error in judgment on the part of the consumer that led to the adverse action.

You dont open a brand new $5000 account, then send a $50,000 credit balance to it, then try to cash it out, etc and then post a thread whining about adverse actional....then theres the people who try to hit the credit line increase button weekly, and wonder why they are flagged for review, then its the people who ran $50,000 Google checkout charges all to the same merchant with the same last name, and whine about their adverse action.

Theres a tremendous lack of common sense in this forum, and even for those who lack common sense, one can figure out what NOT to do by reading the adverse action thread and individal gripe threads.

BINGO! We have a Winner. Let me tell you what you've just won

I agree with you 100% Everytime I here an A/A story I have to try and figure out what the person did to get it. SIS I've seen your old thread is there any new or newer AOR threads that you've posted?

TIA

SUCKISSTAPLES said:The big factor that skews any results is the "user stupidity" factor that triggers adverse action.

Ive never had any adverse action, even though I AOR, carry large BTs, have tons of debt reporting, tons of inquiries reporting, dont play bumpage games, etc.

Practically every thread in this forum complaining of adverse action mentions in passing (sometimes buried somewhere long after the OP) of the stupid mistake/error in judgment on the part of the consumer that led to the adverse action.

You dont open a brand new $5000 account, then send a $50,000 credit balance to it, then try to cash it out, etc and then post a thread whining about adverse actional....then theres the people who try to hit the credit line increase button weekly, and wonder why they are flagged for review, then its the people who ran $50,000 Google checkout charges all to the same merchant with the same last name, and whine about their adverse action.

Theres a tremendous lack of common sense in this forum, and even for those who lack common sense, one can figure out what NOT to do by reading the adverse action thread and individal gripe threads.

OP is wise to be treading carefully here.

The landscape for credit card arbitrage and related games is changing dramatically. No one should assume that credit tactics that worked between 1997-2007 would work the same going forward.

SIS rightly notes that greed and carelessness often trigger adverse action. But his post also suggests that those who avoid both won't face adverse action. The evidence discrediting that view has grown overwhelming. New media pieces have been surfacing almost daily in which card companies acknowledge that they are adopting to new measures to curtail activities of credit exploiters. FWF posts are also starting to confirm it to. (Keep in mind that posts here will always be a lagging indicator of what card companies are actually doing).

SUCKISSTAPLES said:Ive never had any adverse action, even though I AOR, carry large BTs, have tons of debt reporting, tons of inquiries reporting, dont play bumpage games, etc.As someone who wishes you well, I'm pleased for you. But your good fortune doesn't begin to prove that adverse action isn't likely to affect FWF's "mainstream" credit exploiter. As you know, your situation is highly atypical of FWF members. To start with:

-You have scores of aged, reporting credit lines, including some a generation old.
-You are a fairly conservative RE investor, with several well-aged RE/installment loans.
-You aren't currently carrying high utilization percentages, individually or across your lines.
-You have stated you're giving wide berth to jittery issuers (e.g. AMEX on crack due to F/Rs). And most important,
-IIRC you haven't done any substantial AORs in a couple of years. That's critical.

If I'm wrong about any of this, please correct me. But if you want to make general arguments about credit games based on your own experience, you need to show readers how their situation generally compares with yours.

Practically every thread in this forum complaining of adverse action mentions in passing (sometimes buried somewhere long after the OP) of the stupid mistake/error in judgment on the part of the consumer that led to the adverse action.Not anymore.

Increasingly, you're seeing people who executed AORs many months ago suddenly experience a raft of adverse actions.

One related point worth stressing here. FWF members need to know that FW members (myself included) have a financial stake in having members apply for new cards through their affiliate links. That doesn't mean that anyone is deliberately putting their own profits ahead of others' financial well-being. But celebrations of credit applications and AORs--particularly in this "credit crunch" environment--need to be read with that in mind.

(Typo edit only)

Just to add some data points, Juniper seems to be extra choppy as far as knocking down credit limits for otherwise good credit risk consumers as well as jacking up interest rates.

Chase seems to chop down credit lines first and close credit cards second.

BOA seems to just close credit lines outright.

On the flip side....

Penfed and USAA seem to be the very best as far as shrugging at credit difficulties or otherwise adverse patterns not involving them.

Obviously you guys just WON'T be happy until you can get EVERY FREAKIN PENNY from an AOR. If you could get 1,000,000 in 0% money on buisness cards YOU would still find the need to show debt on your personal.

When a creditor gives you a credit line they have to show that you can handle it. Scores, utilization etc. They don't have the time to look at 40 million different accounts and study each case before A/A. They'll just shoot first and ask questions later.

I can see it know, BofA showing their auditors your credit report and score and saying OH BUT IT'S OK we know he'll pay. Learn how to play the game and you WILL NEVER get A/A, get greedy and you WILL GET A/A.

You guys KNOW JUNY DON'T PLAY ANYMORE but you still continue to try and PISS them off. Get all the Chase and BofA cards you want but all you gotta do is get 1 BANKATLANTIC BIZ CARD and use it 99%. If they cut your credit line SO WHAT!!!!!!!

It's the SAME with AMEX, I don't even have a personal AMEX. Why would I, so they can F/R and close my accounts and show the world that they closed my accounts. I have 200,000 on my credit cards and 8,000 on my personal right now. I'm also going to start another AOR next week, NO BIG DEAL for me. My real fico's are 740 (4 old INQs)on eq and 767 (1 INQs)on TU and experian is frozen.

Sure the personal is easier and gets you alot of credit quick, but then you can't get more credit. I can AOR for the rest of my life as long as I don't overload my personal credit.

So GIVE me RED, cause some of you guys are SO SMART BUT YOU ARE THE ONE CRYING.

So CASHMONKEY, yes you should scale back on your AOR to prevent A/A infact if you do NO APPS you will be GAURANTEED NO A/A.

win333 said:
You guys KNOW JUNY DON'T PLAY ANYMORE
That is the kind of info I want to collect in one place. Only after reading many threads do I know that Juniper isn't being nice. Also, I do have an AMEX personal card, and from what I know of their practices from this forum, I won't include an AMEX card in my AOR because I don't want to bother with the highly likely FR.

By the way, adding lots of caps to your posts makes them very unpleasant to read, like someone shouting in your ear every other word. If you want better reception for your posts, tone down the attitude.

IMHO, hesidence

THISGUYS AOR is promoting AORs more than anything I've seen SIS post.

SIS could start a new thread every month if he was promoting, Don't forget money is also made on traffic.

Just because SIS says he has not had A/A doesn't mean he has an agenda. I have not had any A/A either and I HAVE NO AGENDA. So believe what you want, most people won't see the trust even if you hit them with it.

Green to CN47 for information that responded to the OP's question. Many data points here and elsewhere confirm them. Unfortunately one can't say the same for win333.

win333 said:DaveHanson said:...FWF members need to know that FW members (myself included) have a financial stake in having members apply for new cards through their affiliate links. That doesn't mean that anyone is deliberately putting their own profits ahead of others' financial well-being. But celebrations of credit applications and AORs--particularly in this "credit crunch" environment--need to be read with that in mind....Isn't this sweet, So are you saying that you have an AGENDA and I should not listen to anything you say because your making money off the links. I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD PUT SIS in that same boat with you.Dude, you need to set down your can of Red Bull, take a deep breath, and think for a minute before you post. I think the main reason you get "red" is that you post misunderstanding faster than the rest of us can correct it.

Since you missed the point of what I said about "a financial stake", I'll break it down further for you.

1. FWF members, including me, earn money when readers apply for credit through our links.
2. I argue that people should make FEWER credit applications going forward. Thus,
3. if people heed my advice, I and others earn LESS referral income, not more. Therefore,
4. My advice runs AGAINST the "AGENDA" that you claim discredits me.

I am telling you something AGAINST my own interests because I know it to be true. Of course I want to make all the referral income I can--but not at the expense of my readers' credit viability. I won't pretend to guess at how you think, but in my experience, if someone's telling you something COUNTER to their obvious self interest, it makes sense to pay more attention, not less.

Am I getting through yet?

 

win333 said:[Mod Edit: Material removed at request of poster.]
Just because SIS says he has not had A/A doesn't mean he has an agenda. No one claimed he had an "agenda"...my reference to him was in an entirely different paragraph, and "agenda" was your word, not mine.

My claim was that owners of affiliate links have a "financial stake" in having people apply for credit through their links. This should be obvious. It isn't controversial or hard to grasp. I'm not sure why you don't get it....again it seems you must not be reading carefully.

 

win333 said:When a creditor gives you a credit line they have to show that you can handle it. Scores, utilization etc. They don't have the time to look at 40 million different accounts and study each case before A/A. They'll just shoot first and ask questions later.Now you're talking sense. But starting just recently, "shoot first, ask later" is increasingly being applied to AOR tactics themselves, e.g. lots of inquiries bunched together. CC companies are saying so, and plenty of data points here confirm it. Gimmicks like freezing Experian are well and good, but won't suffice to protect you from this.
Learn how to play the game and you WILL NEVER get A/A, get greedy and you WILL GET A/A....

I have 200,000 on my credit cards and 8,000 on my personal right now. You obviously think you know something about "how to play the game". Well, so do I. I'm carrying more than quadruple your debt, and I wrote the FWF thread on promo rate investing years ago. But don't take my word for it. Since you so clearly admire SIS, you can read his words on the subject here, back when he used a different handle. I'll save you the search.

didYOUsearch said: CreditGuy said:I think Dave Hanson is right in his strategy of paying down to <50% or paying off in full before statement closing date. I've learned so much from his posts! (Thanks, Dave.) In the long run, that does encourage higher limits and better offers than the "max out" variants. But I've got a real problem keeping usage down that much when a juicy 0% offer is sitting in my account. I might be better off in the long run leaving so much profit on the table, but it's hard for me to do that. I'm looking for an alternative...Dave has this stuff down to a science, and its hard to go wrong following his strategies. However, Im quite a bit lazier, and dont usually bother with prepayments prior to statement closing date. And Like you, I tend to be more aggressive, and just CANT leave $17k of a $35k CL 0% offer aloneAnyone who follows the game closely should know that the "conservatism" (LOL!) I championed then is FAR more advisable today than it was in 2005.

Yes, you are right that "hiding" debt on business cards has been an effective tactic. But you clearly aren't aware of how rapidly major issuers are getting wise to that trick. My guess is that if you don't figure it out soon, this will be your last year without experiencing adverse action, despite your admirable credit scores.

I'm happy to engage any constructive criticism you may have on all this. But I won't be eager to answer you again unless you address my arguments with something more persuasive than phrases like "Bullcrap". So if you do reply, and I revert back to ignoring you, that's why.

win333 said:DaveHanson said:(lots of informative text)"blah blah blah I know more than you"Dude, didnt your mother ever teach you to RESPECT YOUR ELDERS? You can have your own opinions, but you are a guest in this sandbox (as am I) and you should act accordingly - contribute with respect, not hostility. If you want to be king, go build your own castle somewhere else.

For the record, the whole premise of this forum has been identifying opportunities, and taking advantage of them WITHOUT soaking them dry - carefully determining what the providers of these deals will tolerate, and using prudence to maximize the benefits while not crossing that line (so the 'deal' will remain an ongoing opportunity). Even though you obviously see it as a well that will never run dry, it is gung-ho users like you who are going to eventually kill the benefits of biz cards, like most other good things that have come and gone.