SecondCor521’s Somewhat-Less-Lazy-O-Rama A0R 2.0 – March 4, 2008
Pop some popcorn, grab a beer, 2Cor’s second Lazy-O-Rama is here! (Hey, that rhymes…)
Narrative History Since Lazy-O-Rama A0R 1.0 – January 23, 2007
My Lazy-O-Rama 1.0 went smoothly. I ended up with around $92K of BT money about a year ago, and stashed it in the usual HYSA’s. I only made one notable error and that was sending in one of my monthly payments to FNBO both by check and online. I re-upped one of the cards a few months ago that had a no-fee offer. I made about $4700 in interest and about $800 in bonuses. I experienced no adverse action.
I’ve cracked and danced my AM3X cards a number of times over the past six months. I’ve reallocated via their web page to get a large line with them on my personal account. I also love buttoned my BofA AM3X. While refi’ing my mortgage with PenFed, I took the opportunity to CLI my Visa with them as well. In doing so I discovered that the mortgage credit pull could not be used for the CC CLI (they use different “styles” of FICO scores).
I used all of my non-BT cards at least once in the last few months just to show activity; Citi had commented negatively on this fact at some point when I had asked them for a CLI. Apparently as a result of this usage I was rewarded with larger credit lines on two cards (BOA AM3X and USBank). Shortly after paying down my FNBO BT to 29.99%, they also rewarded me with an increased line.
Most of my A0R 1.0 money was in 12 month BT’s. I paid those all off and disputed the balances with the CRA’s. I did have a 15 month offer with FNBO that I decided to pay down to 29.99% and let it run until it expires on 5/1/08.
One other wrinkle that turned up is that I applied to refinance my mortgage through PenFed on 1/23/08; I moved from a 5.75% fixed 30 year to a 4.625% fixed 15 year. By the time they pulled my credit, my score was 749 (TU FAKO). I decided to push out my A0R 2.0 by about two weeks because of this. I got very lucky with the timing of this opportunity matching up well with the end of my A0R 1.0.
Also as a result of my refi, there is a window starting March 3rd where I have no mortgage balance reflecting on my credit reports. I’m thinking this may be a good time to do an A0R .
Goals for A0R 2.0
1. Replace the HELOC I had to cancel when I refinanced with PenFed. 2. Harvest as much 0% capped-fee BT $$$ as possible. ....... I’d like to get over $200K of BT money ....... I’d also like to have my “2008 interest earned” > “2008 interest paid” 3. Obtain CC signup, 1st purchase, and bank bonuses. ....... I’d specifically like to be able to get enough Citi TYP to get a plane ticket to visit my sister sometime this summer. 4. Be more suave and sophisticated about the whole thing. 5. Be more aggressive.
“Somewhat Less Lazy” Tactics
I’m being somewhat less lazy this time in an effort to increase my income from this activity:
1. I’m doing a lot more prep work for this A0R; I started working on it in a low-key way in November. I’ve also written up a document offline that details my plan. This includes a lot of miscellaneous tips and tricks I’ve gleaned from reading a ton of FWF threads. 2. Included in the prep work was making my business look more business-like; see the history below. 3. I’ve signed up for some credit monitoring services in order to make sure my report is clean prior to launching A0R 2.0. I am also just curious to see what happens with my credit score as my A0R 1.0 balances get paid off and my A0R 2.0 accounts and balances show up. I will probably keep them afterwards for bumpage. 4. Depending on how many offers I find, I’ll include offers for less than 12 months 0%, but I’ll still mostly insist on $75-or-less capped offers that I can apply for online. I did allow one phone app to creep into the list. 5. I’ll be going to 89.99%-BT fee on each personal card up to 49.99% overall utilization and 94.99%-BT fee on business cards. As long as I can stay within those utilization limits, I’ll do a BT on any line that I can get 60 $K-months of BT.
Current Personal Credit Profile
Age: 38.77 HHI: Low six figures AM3X HHI: 2007 W2 salary + interest income + schedule E income Credit history: 29 years and 6 months per Equ!fax Average account age: 3 years 10 months per Equ!fax Utilization: 1% per Equ!fax Real estate accounts: 0 active mortgages showing; 1 open zero balance HELOC; 5 old paid mortgages Installment accounts: 1 active student loan ($13K @ 4.5% fixed 15 year graduated payments); 5 old paid accounts
Issuer Card Age (Yrs) Bal CL Util Comments
AM3X Costco TrueEarnings AM3X 3.42 0 99,600
BofA WorldPoints Rewards AM3X 2.33 0 37,800
Chase Disney Rewards Visa 1.08 0 32,600
Chase SonyCard Visa 1.17 0 35,000
Chase Flexible Rewards Signature Visa 2.50 0 500
Chase Non-signature Visa 2.25 0 500
Chase Visa 11.17 0 500
Chase Freedom Visa 1.17 0 500
Citi Simplicity Rewards MC 2.59 0 1,300
Citi Platinum Select MC 2.42 0 1,300
Citi Professional MC 1.17 0 1,000
Citi Diamond Preferred Rewards MC 1.17 0 38,500
Citi PremierPass MC 1.59 0 2,000
Citi AT&T Universal Rewards MC 1.17 0 1,300
D3ll Preferred Account 1.84 0 7,000
Discover Platinum Card 1.67 0 15,000
FNB Omaha Platinum Edition Visa 1.08 4,026 16,700 24.11% 0% BT until 5/1/08
HSBC GM Flexible Earnings MC 1.17 0 600
PenFed Platinum Cash Rewards Visa 1.17 118 50,000 0.24% Daily spender
USAA Platinum MC 2.25 0 30,000
USBank Reserve Line 2.08 0 4,000
USBank Platinum Visa 1.75 0 10,000
USBank Premier Line 1.75 0 8,000
Current Business Credit Profile
Sole proprietor
Years in business: 1.25
Business income: $24,602 (2008 projected)
DUNS number applied for 1/22/08
Issuer Card Age (Yrs) Bal CL Util Comments
Advanta Platinum Business MC 1.17 0 5,000 Closed to apply for new card
AM3X SimplyCash Business AM3X 1.17 0 9,700
AM3X FreedomPass Business AM3X 1.17 0 9,700
AM3X Platinum Business Credit AM3X 1.17 0 9,700
Chase Business Cash Rewards Visa 1.17 0 35,000
Chase GM Business MC 1.17 0 5,000
Phase 1: HELOC Replacement
h1 Digital Federal Credit Union Equity Line Plus ..... 100% LTV no fee ..... Membership through previous employer ..... May not be able to do if PenFed doesn’t record their first mortgage in time
Phase 2: Business and Personal Credit Cards
"Next time I'll probably be more selective on which cards I apply for." - 2Cor521, A0R1.0.
All lists are in application order. In the original list, I primarily grouped them by expected profit. In my second list, I culled a lot of cards as recommended by FWF and also mostly grouped by issuer. In my final list (found in the QuickSummary), I grouped entirely by issuer, then sorted by expected aggregate profit by issuer, and then I just reorganized things based on some subjective intuitive evaluation of what I wanted to apply for first.
Cards without links can be easily found at CardSelection.
TDA - TDAmeritrade $1100 in bonuses - - - > $1,100 ..... Open online here and fund at least $25K -> $100 ..... Call and apply promo code 517 ..... Deposit at least $30K ..... Make 5 trades ..... Receive $1K bonus ..... Keep account open 9 months
k1a - Chase Free personal checking $125x4 +$25x2 bonus - - - > $550 ..... Open online here or try via phone to get coupons to stack ..... $125x2 coupon code: 3xxxxxxxxxxxxxx1 (expires 5/31) ..... $25x2 coupon code: 3xxxxxxxxxxxxxx2, 3xxxxxxxxxxxxxx2 (expire 4/8) ..... Must set up DD (use ACH push) ..... Request no checks be ordered ..... Inform fathickory via email that you’ve used codes (email A0R2.0 folder) ..... Close after 6 months
– or –
k1b - Chase checking $125x4 bonus - - - > $500 ..... Hard pull ..... Log into Chase then use this link ..... Call in same day 800.935.9935 to cancel check order
k2 - BofA Checking $75x4 - - - > $300 ..... Offer code AOU260208 ..... Check for fees first
k3 - Chase $200x1 + $50x1 biz checking - - - > $250 ..... Expires 3/15 ..... Deposit $500 ..... Try over the phone ..... Coupon in physical folder ..... Ask for Chase Business Complete package ..... Request they waive fees first year ..... Request no checks be ordered ..... Stack with $50 referral code from dpjnyc (PC A0R 2.0 folder) ..... Inform dpjnyc via email that you’ve used code (email A0R2.0 folder) ..... No min for first year ..... Close after 6 months
k5 - OptionsXPress $100x1 bonus - - - > $100 ..... Expires 3/31 ..... Deposit $500 ..... No hard pull on no margin account ..... Choose Xpress Fund sweep option ..... Close after 6 months
k6 - Wells Fargo $50x1 bonus with $100 initial deposit (targeted offer) - - - > $50 ..... Expired 2/29 ..... 2/25/08 – Opened account with $101
k7 - Amtrust Direct $50x1 bonus with $100 deposit for 3 months (targeted offer) - - - > $50 ..... Expired 2/29 ..... 2/26/08 – transfer set up for $101x4
k8 - LaSalle Bank $100x4 - - - > $400 ..... No hard pull ..... Open two accounts (Convenience Checking and Stmt Savings) ..... Fund both accounts with up to $1K on PenFed ca$h back card ..... $250/$100 minimums in checking/savings ..... Request no checks (probably not a problem) ..... 1P on debit card within 60 days ..... Close after 6 months
k9 - BofA Business Checking $100 - - - > $100 ..... Expires 3/31 ..... Hard pull if no existing BofA checking ..... Click here to open online ..... Fees waived if you have a BofA personal account
Phase 5: CLI existing low-limit cards
Depending on the level of adrenaline in my bloodstream at this point, I will CLI my existing low-limit cards. "Low-limit" in this case is a judgment call.
Phase 6: To be decided
I will post a new thread on A0R Phase 6 if I decide to proceed.
FICO History (TU/EX/EQ) Up through A0R
Pulling daily with Key Bank www.myprivacymatters.com ($1 for 30 day trial), 24ProtectPlus www.24protectplus.com ($29.95 for a year), www.creditkarma.com (free), and www.equ!fax.com credit watch service (free, but allegedly not good for bumpage). I canceled my Key Bank product after 29 days…they tried charging me $12.95 for my first month but refunded that when I called to complain. They have not disabled my login, however.
History below only includes dates where something changed.
1 year inquiries are 2/2/3. Inquiries in the last six months are 1/1/2 which represent the PenFed mortgage refi and a pull by Wells Fargo when I opened an account for a bonus last week (even though they said they wouldn’t pull – grr!)
Date | 2 Year Inquiries | Cards with Balances | TU Score | CK Score | Comments
>> Post-A0R FAKO history can be found below in the Quick Summary.
A0R 2.0 History
01/06/08 – Began process of paying off all A0R1.0 balances except the FNBO card, which I paid down to just under 30% utilization 01/20/08 – Started disputing balances today after the various credit card companies have a zero balance on their website 01/22/08 – Requested DUNS number for my business 01/23/08 – Applied for PenFed 15 year mortgage refi 02/05/08 – Request and receive PenFed CLI to $50K 02/09/08 – Started compiling list of applications 02/11/08 – Signed PenFed mortgage refi papers 02/15/08 – PenFed refi finalized 02/19/08 -- Added my business listing to 411 02/23/08 – CC list pretty much finalized 02/23/08 – Tried disputing 6 EQ inquiries 02/25/08 – Canceled existing Advanta biz card in order to reapply 03/02/08 – Posted plan on FWF 03/03/08 - Culled and reordered list based on FWF feedback 03/04/08 – D-Day
>> Post A0R periodic summaries are posted separately to the thread below.
Lessons Learned
I'll try to note my lessons learned here. If you want to be thorough, read the whole thread.
Pre-A0R
1. It has oft been reported on these boards that PenFed will reuse a credit pull within 30, 60, or 90 days if you ask for a CLI on their credit card. Unfortunately, PenFed cannot use a credit pull from a mortgage (refi) application in order to consider a CLI request. They will pull your credit again. Small oops. 2. If you’re refinancing your mortgage it might be a good time to do an A0R in the gap where your old mortgage is reported as paid off and your new mortgage isn’t reflected yet. 3. Grouping by issuer is a good thing for two reasons: ..... a. It probably shows the best possible credit profile to each issuer because the earlier pullers don't get a "second look" at your later, inquiry-trashed report. ..... b. It gets you into the groove of the application filling -- usually the same fields are in the same locations, etc.
A0R
1. Don't do an A0R starting at 9:00 pm Eastern. It's late, you're tired, and so it's slower going. More importantly, if you have to do any phone applications, there is a high likelihood that whoever you are trying to call is closed. 2. It seems that putting a BT request in with the app would have increased my instant approval numbers. I don't know if I would have ended up with any more credit, though. 3. Roboform is useful, but be sure to check the information over carefully before submitting, especially if you are intermixing business and personal applications -- "Business name" in the first case refers to "2Cor521 Enterprises" and in the second case refers to my day job employer. 4. CapOne will instantly reject a second application.
Post-A0R
1. It has been reported on this thread that BT's to a Citi card can exceed your Citi CL. I sure hope that's the case, because I may end up in that situation. 2. PenFed treats bank opening deposits using their credit card as cash advances, but as long as you PIF each month you won't incur finance charges.
Props
I’ll probably miss a few, but thanks are due to:
SIS and DaveHanson – for pioneering fathickory and dpjnyc – for the referrals Glitch99 – for all the good comments lhendricks92 – for the USBank Baylor card elleve – for the “google” credit card lillazyfats81 – for the BofA credit card markkundinger – for the humor brushwood – for the hint to use IE win333 – for the enthusiasm and the PM on EQ inqs DreamKrusher, dvm395, paperchaser80, and desidealmaster – for the bank bonuses brushwood, xjagox, Sparhawk24, Alimo, brianLp518, jakeru, Venturion, ShaneM, Hindustani, mhesidence, djspray, thisguy, devildoc, dmlavigne1, MikeR397, jairocon, polardude, alchemize, and others – for the A0Rs
- and of course -
everyone who posted feedback on this thread!
Some Stats
Existing credit: $505,700 Initial list of phase 2 applications: 56 First revised list of phase 2 applications: 35 Final list of phase 2 applications: 36 Projected CC bonuses: $1,033.50 Projected bank bonuses: $2,200 Projected BT $$$: No idea
Questions for FWF Gurus
1. I’m considering applying for an AM3X IN:XX card, CLRing via the website, and then doing a 6 month 0% BT. How much would people recommend I take, utilization-wise? Also, which strategy is better: (a) take 89.99% BT in order to prevent loss of CL if AM3X clamps down, or (b) take 50% BT in order to try to avoid FR or A/A? 2. Should I close any of my existing puny (CL < $1,000) cards? My inclination is to just leave them for now. 3. Should I freeze Experian? When? How? 4. My TU bumped pretty quickly; none of my 14 EQ inquiries have been bumped. In general, is this normal? 5. How many CapOne apps can one do?
In general, any feedback on, or questions about, any of the above is welcome!
Users like you can add images, links and other relevant information about this topic.
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 1:39a
psu26262
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 2:56a
I just applied 3 AMEX IN:XXX card. If you haven't already know, you can't do CLI request when you get the card less than 30 days. I learned this the hard way and got FR and security flags. So I did the alternative, I just relocate my credit from my Blue card. The original CL limit is very low for me: only $2000/card. My recommendation is to apply for these cards only for emergency (i.e. you need to BT from card that its promo almost expired).
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 3:17a
psu26262 said: I just applied 3 AMEX IN:XXX card. If you haven't already know, you can't do CLI request when you get the card less than 30 days. I learned this the hard way and got FR and security flags. So I did the alternative, I just relocate my credit from my Blue card. The original CL limit is very low for me: only $2000/card. My recommendation is to apply for these cards only for emergency (i.e. you need to BT from card that its promo almost expired).
My plan is to apply for one AM3X IN:NYC card and reallocate online from my existing AM3X card.
2Cor521
jevon90
Addicted Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 3:50a
Wow, very ambitious AOR and well-detailed post. I like it Alot.
My answers to the questions
1. I chose to avoid FR route with my INLA BT and stuck to 49.99% utilization, but given you prepared your financial documents and already have much more substantial credit stats for total util and credit age you could probably afford to try the higher util route. 2. I would keep those small lines unless you think you're going to go over the cards allowed per issuer limit. 3. Freezing Experian would probably be worth it given on average you should expect 18 or so Experian Inquiries if you're doing 56 apps that'll stay for 2 years and could hurt you applying for cards/mortgages in the future. You can read how to freeze experian in this FW Thread and the link to get the information on what information to mail in can be found here. Although I've heard it takes a week for this freeze to go into effect, so you'd have to delay the O-Rama a bit but I bet it'd be worth it in the longer(2 year) run. 4. Yeah people have reported that TU usually bumps after ~40 soft pulls and EQ bumps after ~90 soft pulls, so just keep pulling. 5. I remember reading a limit of 1 in someone's AOR thread(though I now forget who) as another got cancelled when he applied for 2 but I think they were both on the personal side, but I would imagine you could do 1 biz and 1 personal.
Additionally, you might want to look into this Credit Card Issuer FAQ FW Thread as they have important information on the limits certain issuers have on applications. For example, I've read from some AOR-veterans that Citi has a limit of applying for 2 Personal Cards, 1 Professional Card, and 2 Business Cards in a 60 day period (although I'm not sure if cobranded cards like the Associated Bank card count as part of that Personal app limit). Anyways I wish you the best of luck and I'm eager to see the results.
56 apps in this "credit crunch" and "trigger-happy" market? You're very brave and crazy. I'd expect a LOT of adverse action - maybe not from the outset, but in the first 6 months after the AOR. Good luck, though!
LH2004
Frivolous Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 5:41a
Thanks for all of the detail!
SecondCor521 said: I’ve cracked and danced my AM3X cards a number of times over the past six months. I’ve reallocated via their web page to get a large line with them on my personal account. I also love buttoned my BofA AM3X. While refi’ing my mortgage with PenFed, I took the opportunity to CLI my Visa with them as well. In doing so I discovered that the mortgage credit pull could not be used for the CC CLI (they use different “styles” of FICO scores).We sure do speak a different dialect 'round these parts!
markkundinger
Senior Member - 2K
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 6:12a
I like the idea to report a 1040-supported income to AMX.
I like the planning out of bank bonuses.
I think 56 cards is too many. And I think there's some "duplication" of similar offers (or non-offers) that wouldn't be necessary, given reallocation opportunities Here are banks where I think multiple apps might be counter productive:
- Discover (just one personal) - Nat City (unknown on more than one personal) - Chase personal cards - Citibank personal cards - BofA personal cards - Capone
- You have two many citibank apps in general. I count at least three business and at least three personal, not mentioning the Professional.
- I would reprioritize one Chase business app higher in the list due to massive reallocation potential
- The Chase Sony link (superscript 1 over the $100) says that the purchase has an expiration date of last year. Might not work.
- The Chase Lasalle card is interesting, since it's already "obsolete". The official card is through BofA. In fact, Chase already replaced my lasalle card from last year.
- Prinicipal bank is a FNBO card, so as usual, they hate inquiries. Low probability of success at that state in the AOR.
- Pulaski usually wants to verify income. Iberia seems to Pulaski, so possibly same deal.
- I say go for it on AMX. Just expect to get financial reviewed, and even if your docs support your app, they might close accounts anyway.
Green for great detail and for what promises to be a very worthwhile thread.
dealornodeal
Addicted Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 9:54a
i am lost, why some of your bank bonuses got multiplied by 4?
verruckterBaum
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 10:04a
SecondCor521 was told several times in the his last AOR not to apply for multiple Discover cards. He states that that he was turned down for too many Discover applications.
Yet here he is doing it again. I guess I just don't see the point. I especially don't understand the point of making them #6 and #7. So the next 49 credit card applications will have an unnecessary inquiry showing when applying.
I think people are fooling themselves if they think inquiries aren't instant. Just because you complete all your apps in 1 hour doesn't make them not visible. New accounts and new debt are definitely hidden but inquiries are not.
dvm395
Addicted Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 10:07a
Wow, good luck! Thanks for the detailed writeup. I'll be following this one.
I agree with Mark above on the number of apps and hitting the limit with certain ones.
I would move the AMEX In: card closer to the top of the list since that is the only way to take advantage of that monster $100k line you already have with them.
I HOPE YOU HAVE A BIG MAILBOX!!
PolarDude
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 10:30a
Maybe others can concur, but I got a denial for more than 1 Citibusiness cards in 1 AOR. Chase seems hit or miss on multiple approvals, but Venturions AOR looks like potential. I've seen someone get 9 BofA/Fia cards in 1 aggresive AOR, but ended up getting ALL their accounts closed a few months after pulling ~200k from them. OP has a few Citi / Chase cards already, I can't remember if there's a hard limit or not. Is your biz going to have a web presence? Duns is super slow in giving the free duns, you might not see it until April, and I don't know if it makes a difference unless you have tradelines showing, but it should get you an Experian biz profile, but after several weeks of being in Duns. One thing I might mention, is I tend to like doing each bank all at once, and not skipping back in forth, reasoning you don't want the last Citi/bofa/chase app to see you lots more inquiries when your first app only showed so many. If they keep each app completely separate, then it's more doable, but I'd be interested to hear how others have fared when that many apps in between one bank (Citi AMEX at the very bottom, with them also being on top) Some may even pull the next day, or hours later depending on when you do this. I can't wait to see it, and love all the details. I kinda wish there were more issuers though (Where's GE Money?) As for discover, I think 1 personal and 1 biz is OK, but there may be a cap on cards/exposure. He may get small lines with issuers he has alot of credit already, and I think it's too aggresive for me, and would add in more issuers instead.
Great job on a beautifully laid out OP, SecondCor521.
As we've discussed, I'd be less ambitious. Your excellent profile will minimize AA, but will not eliminate it if you actually go through with 50+ apps. You've gotten great advice so far...I agree with pretty much evenything Mark says.
You especially don't want AMEX to cut or close your TE card, as it is by far you largest reporting personal limit.
Best of luck. Yours will be a very interesting one to follow.
dvm395
Addicted Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 11:14a
PolarDude said: Maybe others can concur, but I got a denial for more than 1 Citibusiness cards in 1 AOR.
I was recently approved for 2 Citibusiness cards in my AOR but didn't have a business card with them prior to that.
xxjt
Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 11:43a
I thought chase limits 1 account bonus per year - are you opening accounts for 4 different people?
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 12:07p
jevon90 said: Wow, very ambitious AOR and well-detailed post. I like it Alot.
My answers to the questions
1. I chose to avoid FR route with my INLA BT and stuck to 49.99% utilization, but given you prepared your financial documents and already have much more substantial credit stats for total util and credit age you could probably afford to try the higher util route. 2. I would keep those small lines unless you think you're going to go over the cards allowed per issuer limit. 3. Freezing Experian would probably be worth it given on average you should expect 18 or so Experian Inquiries if you're doing 56 apps that'll stay for 2 years and could hurt you applying for cards/mortgages in the future. You can read how to freeze experian in this FW Thread and the link to get the information on what information to mail in can be found here. Although I've heard it takes a week for this freeze to go into effect, so you'd have to delay the O-Rama a bit but I bet it'd be worth it in the longer(2 year) run. 4. Yeah people have reported that TU usually bumps after ~40 soft pulls and EQ bumps after ~90 soft pulls, so just keep pulling. 5. I remember reading a limit of 1 in someone's AOR thread(though I now forget who) as another got cancelled when he applied for 2 but I think they were both on the personal side, but I would imagine you could do 1 biz and 1 personal.
Additionally, you might want to look into this Credit Card Issuer FAQ FW Thread as they have important information on the limits certain issuers have on applications. For example, I've read from some AOR-veterans that Citi has a limit of applying for 2 Personal Cards, 1 Professional Card, and 2 Business Cards in a 60 day period (although I'm not sure if cobranded cards like the Associated Bank card count as part of that Personal app limit). Anyways I wish you the best of luck and I'm eager to see the results.
jevon90,
Thanks for being the first to green my thread!
And thanks for replying to my questions. My replies:
1. I haven't found many FWF data points on AMEX BT's; most seem to be afraid of F/R. I probably won't go over 50% util with AMEX in any case. 2. Yup, I agree. 3. I don't think I'll delay in order to freeze Experian because I'd rather apply when I'm not showing any mortgage balance on my CRs and I don't know when my new mortgage will show up; I guess I'm just too late on that idea for this round. I will probably be culling the list some so hopefully it will be somewhat fewer than 18. 4. On bumpage, I'll keep on keeping on; I think someone else in their A0R (markkundinger, maybe?) reported that all their TU bumped before their EQ. 5. Thanks for the data point and the thread link.
In general, my philosophy is that it is better to err on the side of applying for more cards rather than fewer. Yes, you'll get another inquiry, but I think inquiries, at least in the automatic computerized world of credit granting, are overrated here on FW, especially in the world of the triple play (Hi win333!). I think the bigger issue is policy limits by the CC companies on application limits. Even then, I think there is some YMMV there as well.
I will be culling my list somewhat, though, in situations where I see hard data that the issuer has a hard policy limit on apps. I've already done this in the case of AM3X and Advanta; I have a harder time with the other issuers because I haven't seen that hard policy limit. Maybe I just haven't done enough reading or taken a look at that thread yet.
Thanks again,
2Cor521
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 12:14p
Economist said: 56 apps in this "credit crunch" and "trigger-happy" market? You're very brave and crazy. I'd expect a LOT of adverse action - maybe not from the outset, but in the first 6 months after the AOR. Good luck, though!
Economist,
Probably an accurate assessment. There are several comments I would make here:
1. I think a lot of the A/A talk is FUD. I've read a lot of FWF threads over the last year or so, and I don't really see a whole lot of evidence that the overall level of A/A has increased; the only thing that caught my eye there is that Advanta seems to be giving out lower limits, so perhaps me canceling my existing Advanta biz card will result in a net loss of credit.
2. I also think there may be some truth to the "stupid -> A/A" theory. Maybe I will be stupid, but I'm really just trying to be aggressive.
3. With interest rates dropping to around 4%, one needs to be more aggressive to get the same income, or double it as I hope to do.
4. I really don't care much if they A/A me in some senses. First, I'll be a data point that the rest of FWF can use ("I'm doing it for science, Ma!"). Second, I don't need the money and I don't need the credit, A0Rs are more just a profitable and interesting hobby for me. Third, I'm starting to subscribe to the "to make a cake, you need to break a few eggs" theory that has been espoused in limited form here on FW. Fourth, if they do, it will be a learning experience and a challenge for me to overcome for A0R 3.0.
Thanks again,
2Cor521
lp244
Tired Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 12:30p
You give your personal and credit account ages to four significant digits (<1 week precision), but all we get for HHI is "low six figures"?
And we're going to need pictures of the sister to determine the value of your TYPs.
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 12:30p
markkundinger said: I like the idea to report a 1040-supported income to AMX.
I like the planning out of bank bonuses.
I think 56 cards is too many. And I think there's some "duplication" of similar offers (or non-offers) that wouldn't be necessary, given reallocation opportunities Here are banks where I think multiple apps might be counter productive:
- Discover (just one personal) - Nat City (unknown on more than one personal) - Chase personal cards - Citibank personal cards - BofA personal cards - Capone
- You have two many citibank apps in general. I count at least three business and at least three personal, not mentioning the Professional.
- I would reprioritize one Chase business app higher in the list due to massive reallocation potential
- The Chase Sony link (superscript 1 over the $100) says that the purchase has an expiration date of last year. Might not work.
- The Chase Lasalle card is interesting, since it's already "obsolete". The official card is through BofA. In fact, Chase already replaced my lasalle card from last year.
- Prinicipal bank is a FNBO card, so as usual, they hate inquiries. Low probability of success at that state in the AOR.
- Pulaski usually wants to verify income. Iberia seems to Pulaski, so possibly same deal.
- I say go for it on AMX. Just expect to get financial reviewed, and even if your docs support your app, they might close accounts anyway.
markkundinger,
Thanks for the reply.
On the AMEX HHI, I got that idea from other folks here. Credit to FWF and lots of reading.
You're right, 56 is probably too many. I have a hard time culling the list, and my culling might be different than what others would do. I'm tempted to cull some of the ones that have annual fees after the first year.
You're right, the Sony card bonus offer is expired. I intend to try for it anyway, but I only gave myself a 25% chance of getting it when establishing where to put it on my list.
Are you suggesting I use my "AMEX HHI" on Pulaski and Iberia?
Good points on the rest, I will carefully evaluate and incorporate as much as I can before firing the AOR off, probably later tonight.
Thanks again,
2Cor521
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 12:33p
dealornodeal said: i am lost, why some of your bank bonuses got multiplied by 4?
Sorry, I didn't explain that part very well. I have three children, and I think they all need checking and savings accounts. The fact that they are minors and don't have driver's licenses might throw a wrench into that plan. Although I have reason to believe that my eldest has somehow ended up with a credit file already as he has been getting junk mail offers to refinance his mortgage at my address.
2Cor521
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 12:41p
verruckterBaum said: SecondCor521 was told several times in the his last AOR not to apply for multiple Discover cards. He states that that he was turned down for too many Discover applications.
Yet here he is doing it again. I guess I just don't see the point. I especially don't understand the point of making them #6 and #7. So the next 49 credit card applications will have an unnecessary inquiry showing when applying.
I think people are fooling themselves if they think inquiries aren't instant. Just because you complete all your apps in 1 hour doesn't make them not visible. New accounts and new debt are definitely hidden but inquiries are not.
verrukterBaum,
Thank you for the reply.
You're right, I have a hard time culling my list, and as of yet I haven't done a proper job of that. I was honestly hoping for some help in that regard, and I have gotten some good feedback from you and others on this thread that I'll use.
As I explained before, I think new inquiries are overrated. This is because, as I have watched my A0R 1.0 balances being paid off and my TU inquiries being bumped off, my credit score would jump by dozens of points when the balances drop off, but only by two or three points when the inquiries dropped off.
As for why the Discover apps are #6 and #7 on my list: I have an Excel spreadsheet that takes into account the length of the BT offer in months, the BT fee (if any), the bonus (if any) multiplied by my guess as to the probability of whether I'll get it or not. I also handicapped a few cards if I thought I might get a low CL from them based on others' A0Rs here. This resulted in a "profitability score" for each card. In the case of these apps, they are 13 months instead of 12, they have a nice CS bonus, and a capped BT offer of $75. If I handicapped the CL they would probably drop quite a bit. Maybe I should do that.
Oh, if you want to think I am bull-headed and arrogant, that wouldn't bother me a bit.
Thanks for the good feedback,
2Cor521
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 12:43p
dvm395 said: Wow, good luck! Thanks for the detailed writeup. I'll be following this one.
I agree with Mark above on the number of apps and hitting the limit with certain ones.
I would move the AMEX In: card closer to the top of the list since that is the only way to take advantage of that monster $100k line you already have with them.
I HOPE YOU HAVE A BIG MAILBOX!!
dvm395,
Thanks!
Good point on moving the AM3X higher. I will adjust. I think there's a good chance I'll get the card with some sort of limit, then I can online CLR and do a 49.99% BT.
My mailbox is a regular size one. I do admit I love it when it's full of thick envelopes from North Dakota .
2Cor521
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 12:48p
PolarDude said: Maybe others can concur, but I got a denial for more than 1 Citibusiness cards in 1 AOR. Chase seems hit or miss on multiple approvals, but Venturions AOR looks like potential. I've seen someone get 9 BofA/Fia cards in 1 aggresive AOR, but ended up getting ALL their accounts closed a few months after pulling ~200k from them. OP has a few Citi / Chase cards already, I can't remember if there's a hard limit or not. Is your biz going to have a web presence? Duns is super slow in giving the free duns, you might not see it until April, and I don't know if it makes a difference unless you have tradelines showing, but it should get you an Experian biz profile, but after several weeks of being in Duns. One thing I might mention, is I tend to like doing each bank all at once, and not skipping back in forth, reasoning you don't want the last Citi/bofa/chase app to see you lots more inquiries when your first app only showed so many. If they keep each app completely separate, then it's more doable, but I'd be interested to hear how others have fared when that many apps in between one bank (Citi AMEX at the very bottom, with them also being on top) Some may even pull the next day, or hours later depending on when you do this. I can't wait to see it, and love all the details. I kinda wish there were more issuers though (Where's GE Money?) As for discover, I think 1 personal and 1 biz is OK, but there may be a cap on cards/exposure. He may get small lines with issuers he has alot of credit already, and I think it's too aggresive for me, and would add in more issuers instead.
PolarDude,
This is the kind of thing that makes me want to keep cards in my list...everyone seems to have different experiences with Citi, Chase, and BofA.
The business doesn't have a web presence. It's a local affair.
I already got my DUNS number in email a few days after applying. I don't know if my business trade lines appear on my business CRs.
I've made a note about grouping and have done some; I may do some more of that.
GEMB I didn't put on the list for some reason, can't remember what it was, though.
Thanks for the feedback,
2Cor521
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 12:51p
DaveHanson said: Great job on a beautifully laid out OP, SecondCor521.
As we've discussed, I'd be less ambitious. Your excellent profile will minimize AA, but will not eliminate it if you actually go through with 50+ apps. You've gotten great advice so far...I agree with pretty much evenything Mark says.
You especially don't want AMEX to cut or close your TE card, as it is by far you largest reporting personal limit.
Best of luck. Yours will be a very interesting one to follow.
DaveHanson,
Thanks for the kind words!
Yes, we've had this discussion on another thread, and I remember it well. I've respected your opinion for a long time. I will probably back off on some of the apps -- I'd like to get it down in the 40 card range but I don't know if I will have the decisive character that would take.
2Cor521
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 12:52p
xxjt said: I thought chase limits 1 account bonus per year - are you opening accounts for 4 different people?
As I alluded to in a previous reply, I am going to try to open accounts for me and my three children. I honestly doubt it will work.
2Cor521
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 12:55p
lp244 said: You give your personal and credit account ages to four significant digits (<1 week precision), but all we get for HHI is "low six figures"?
And we're going to need pictures of the sister to determine the value of your TYPs.
lp244,
Sorry, I value my privacy in some ways. My income and pictures of my family are off limits. Green for the reference, though .
SecondCor521 said: DaveHanson said: Great job on a beautifully laid out OP, SecondCor521.
As we've discussed, I'd be less ambitious. Your excellent profile will minimize AA, but will not eliminate it if you actually go through with 50+ apps. You've gotten great advice so far...I agree with pretty much evenything Mark says.
You especially don't want AMEX to cut or close your TE card, as it is by far you largest reporting personal limit.
Best of luck. Yours will be a very interesting one to follow.
I will probably back off on some of the apps -- I'd like to get it down in the 40 card range but I don't know if I will have the decisive character that would take.
2Cor521 The much wiser long-term course for you to take would be to follow the advice you've been given on dramatically curtailing the number of applications. Dropping from 56 to 40 is not a legitimate reduction; that's like a fat guy dropping from the whole pie to just 5 slices! Take Dave Hanson's sage advice, and please don't fool yourself into thinking that the CC companies won't follow one A/A after another like friggin' dominoes. It could happen.
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 1:42p
curtisekarr said: SecondCor521 said: DaveHanson said: Great job on a beautifully laid out OP, SecondCor521.
As we've discussed, I'd be less ambitious. Your excellent profile will minimize AA, but will not eliminate it if you actually go through with 50+ apps. You've gotten great advice so far...I agree with pretty much evenything Mark says.
You especially don't want AMEX to cut or close your TE card, as it is by far you largest reporting personal limit.
Best of luck. Yours will be a very interesting one to follow.
I will probably back off on some of the apps -- I'd like to get it down in the 40 card range but I don't know if I will have the decisive character that would take.
2Cor521 The much wiser long-term course for you to take would be to follow the advice you've been given on dramatically curtailing the number of applications. Dropping from 56 to 40 is not a legitimate reduction; that's like a fat guy dropping from the whole pie to just 5 slices! Take Dave Hanson's sage advice, and please don't fool yourself into thinking that the CC companies won't follow one A/A after another like friggin' dominoes. It could happen.
curtisekarr,
Thanks for the input.
Based on my credit history, credit profile, income, how many applications do you think I should do? Which ones would you eliminate if you were me? In my original A0R, I did 27 or 28 applications, I believe, and borrowed $92K. My credit history is one year longer, it is more varied, I have high limits with several issuers, my scores are about the same if not higher, and my income is higher. And I have experienced no A/A yet.
Where do you think the line is? How do you think someone should determine where the line is? Why should someone decide to take it safe or push the petal to the metal?
I have not seen evidence connecting anything about the credit crisis / mortgage crunch / oncoming recession to increases in A/A (other than potentially issuers providing smaller lines, which I would argue points to more credit applications for A0R gamers, not fewer). If you have any evidence I really would appreciate seeing it. If not, I guess I'm willing to be a case study so we all can find out.
I should add that I have not yet seen evidence of domino-style A/A, although I can understand how it might happen. From what I have read it is usually a single issuer dropping limits or closing cards, and I have also seen where those limits have been restored and cards have been reopened. I have also seen evidence on FWF of massive A0Rs with no A/A whatsoever - thisguy, MikeR397, and devildoc come to mind.
I could crash and burn, I admit it. As I wrote in another thread, I would be just fine with a single $5K credit card. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where my credit would be curtailed from over $500K to less than $5K. It could happen, though.
Thanks again for the feedback,
2Cor521
lhendricks92
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 2:21p
I understand wanting to go over the top and be aggressive and all that, but your 56 applications aren't likely to net you anything beyond what you could get with half (possibly a third) that amount. The reason: you're hitting up the same lenders again and again. You'll definitely run into "too many applications" without increasing your net CL. As you are a credit card gaming veteran, you've already got quite a bit of CL with the major issuers, so you're likely to hit your max total exposure very quickly. Worst case - they're all approved, and you completely trash the average age of your accounts.
Be smarter. Favor biz cards over personal. Apply for a couple of cards with each issuer and ask for CLIs. Show docs if necessary.
Adverse action aside, the name of the game is profit, and your strategy is not geared for maximum profit - especially in the long term, and I would argue not even in the short term.
BTW, I'd be happy to go into more details about what I think you should do with each issuer. Regardless, I've got my popcorn ready. Should be quite a show.
elleve
Ancient Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 2:31p
SecondCor521 said: dealornodeal said: i am lost, why some of your bank bonuses got multiplied by 4?
Sorry, I didn't explain that part very well. I have three children, and I think they all need checking and savings accounts. The fact that they are minors and don't have driver's licenses might throw a wrench into that plan. Although I have reason to believe that my eldest has somehow ended up with a credit file already as he has been getting junk mail offers to refinance his mortgage at my address.
2Cor521
"Learners Permits", "state IDs", are useable for opening online banks.
If your children don't have either, try ingdirect. If I recall correctly, ing didn't require an ID during registration.
Also, great list, very ambitious. If you really want to push it to the limit, I would suggest more business apps as those stay off your report. Remember to B* after your app spree.
lhendricks92 said: I understand wanting to go over the top and be aggressive and all that, but your 56 applications aren't likely to net you anything beyond what you could get with half (possibly a third) that amount. The reason: you're hitting up the same lenders again and again. You'll definitely run into "too many applications" without increasing your net CL. As you are a credit card gaming veteran, you've already got quite a bit of CL with the major issuers, so you're likely to hit your max total exposure very quickly. Worst case - they're all approved, and you completely trash the average age of your accounts.
Be smarter. Favor biz cards over personal. Apply for a couple of cards with each issuer and ask for CLIs. Show docs if necessary.
Adverse action aside, the name of the game is profit, and your strategy is not geared for maximum profit - especially in the long term, and I would argue not even in the short term.
BTW, I'd be happy to go into more details about what I think you should do with each issuer. Regardless, I've got my popcorn ready. Should be quite a show. I very much concur with lhendricks92 here. And even though your original A0R was successful, that was when you had far fewer cards; now you have a boatload that are only a year old. You want to avoid too much scrutiny of your applications, otherwise a reasonable analyst would disapprove them and possibly take further action.
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 5:40p
lhendricks92 said: I understand wanting to go over the top and be aggressive and all that, but your 56 applications aren't likely to net you anything beyond what you could get with half (possibly a third) that amount. The reason: you're hitting up the same lenders again and again. You'll definitely run into "too many applications" without increasing your net CL. As you are a credit card gaming veteran, you've already got quite a bit of CL with the major issuers, so you're likely to hit your max total exposure very quickly. Worst case - they're all approved, and you completely trash the average age of your accounts.
Be smarter. Favor biz cards over personal. Apply for a couple of cards with each issuer and ask for CLIs. Show docs if necessary.
Adverse action aside, the name of the game is profit, and your strategy is not geared for maximum profit - especially in the long term, and I would argue not even in the short term.
BTW, I'd be happy to go into more details about what I think you should do with each issuer. Regardless, I've got my popcorn ready. Should be quite a show.
lhendricks92,
Thanks for the input.
I agree with the essence of your first paragraph, particularly with respect to Citi and AM3X. I think I may have headroom with some of the other issuers, but your general point is well made.
I did want to favor biz over personal, and there are more biz cards in my list than last time around. If anyone has suggestions for any additional good biz cards given my profile, I would appreciate it.
I am new to the "show docs" part of the game, so maybe I will get to learn about that.
Yes, I would be interested in your specific feedback on each issuer and even specific cards.
Thanks again,
2Cor521
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 5:43p
elleve said: SecondCor521 said: dealornodeal said: i am lost, why some of your bank bonuses got multiplied by 4?
Sorry, I didn't explain that part very well. I have three children, and I think they all need checking and savings accounts. The fact that they are minors and don't have driver's licenses might throw a wrench into that plan. Although I have reason to believe that my eldest has somehow ended up with a credit file already as he has been getting junk mail offers to refinance his mortgage at my address.
2Cor521
"Learners Permits", "state IDs", are useable for opening online banks.
If your children don't have either, try ingdirect. If I recall correctly, ing didn't require an ID during registration.
Also, great list, very ambitious. If you really want to push it to the limit, I would suggest more business apps as those stay off your report. Remember to B* after your app spree.
elleve,
Thanks. The best each of my kids can do is a library card ;-P
Any specific suggestions for business cards? I've wanted to lean that direction but only found a limited set, most of which are in my list already. I don't have the exact count but I think about 10 or so of the 56 are biz apps.
And, yes, I will B*.
2Cor521
SecondCor521
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 5:45p
curtisekarr said: lhendricks92 said: I understand wanting to go over the top and be aggressive and all that, but your 56 applications aren't likely to net you anything beyond what you could get with half (possibly a third) that amount. The reason: you're hitting up the same lenders again and again. You'll definitely run into "too many applications" without increasing your net CL. As you are a credit card gaming veteran, you've already got quite a bit of CL with the major issuers, so you're likely to hit your max total exposure very quickly. Worst case - they're all approved, and you completely trash the average age of your accounts.
Be smarter. Favor biz cards over personal. Apply for a couple of cards with each issuer and ask for CLIs. Show docs if necessary.
Adverse action aside, the name of the game is profit, and your strategy is not geared for maximum profit - especially in the long term, and I would argue not even in the short term.
BTW, I'd be happy to go into more details about what I think you should do with each issuer. Regardless, I've got my popcorn ready. Should be quite a show. I very much concur with lhendricks92 here. And even though your original A0R was successful, that was when you had far fewer cards; now you have a boatload that are only a year old. You want to avoid too much scrutiny of your applications, otherwise a reasonable analyst would disapprove them and possibly take further action.
Good points. Thanks.
2Cor521
win333
Senior Member - 2K
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 8:18p
Well i'm here, I didn't get the alert for a new AOR thread, damn i've missed alot.
2ndcore
I guess no pics of the sister huh? LMAO
Your list is so big I can't go thru it all, but i'll add what i've been thinking for my next AOR.
Brian did 15 chase apps and got nothing (good try), but venturion got 7 new chase accounts so far. So on the outside chance that Venturion found the RIGHT chase cards and the RIGHT order of application. I would copy all his chase apps, no sense in re-inventing the wheel. If my theory is right about the different divisions in chase, then I think Venturion has hit the right ones. He also only got a few INQs from chase, so he did something right.
Triple play huh? To bad you can't freeze, i'd sure like to see you with 10 LLCs. But heck maybe a million is enough.
In 1 of your last posts you said, "the list has 10 biz cards". Is that all? So there is 46 personal apps, Jericon's A/A was explained to be because of 20 new accounts within 12 months. PolarDude did many more apps but only got about as much new credit as others with 30 or 40 apps.
Everyone on creditboards knows about the CITI Trifect, thats 3 CITI biz cards at once. So I don't know why we think there is a 2 biz app limit. It might be because they have biz credit reports and some of us don't. No real way to know, other than trying.
Over all 2ndcore, I'm impressed! Your plan looks very well laid out and you seem to feel the same way as I do about A/A. You also seem to be willing to except some A/A, I don't really see the big deal if WE lose some accounts.
Thats about all I can add, I have the popcorn ready.
Can't wait!
EDIT: The banks aren't checking DL #s on apps, just make up a number that matches your state. They ask for that, so when you make a withdrawal and they check your ID they have a number to match with. I don't see your kids going to the bank, RIGHT?
penumbra222
Ancient Member
posted: Mar. 3, 2008 @ 8:57p
For those cards that have no CashBack on cardselection, try taking a look at cardbenefit.com. You can have your wife refer you for an additional $25 per application.
Banks can search for DL numbers in the state databases...and I have had to provide copies of my DL on a few bank sign-ups so I dont know how you would think making up a number would work???
I have been conservative with the AMEX-in cards and stayed less than 50% and only bt 10-12k and applied for new cards with them twice and no problems...
I have read a few close advanta and reapply and got lesser card limits, so YMWV...
Thanks. The best each of my kids can do is a library card ;-P
Any specific suggestions for business cards? I've wanted to lean that direction but only found a limited set, most of which are in my list already. I don't have the exact count but I think about 10 or so of the 56 are biz apps.
And, yes, I will B*.
2Cor521
You can get multiples of the same business cc. I believe it was Venturion that first discovered this. I figure since you're going to tank your credit report with lots of inquiries and B*, might as well hit up a few more business CCS.
win333 said: The banks aren't checking DL #s on apps, just make up a number that matches your state. They ask for that, so when you make a withdrawal and they check your ID they have a number to match with. I don't see your kids going to the bank, RIGHT?
Actually, some check, and some don't.
Example of banks that check to see if your ID is valid / yours (off the top of my head, shorebank, bancofortuna, hsbc)
Some that ask for your ID, but don't check (citibank, boa, gmac)
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