Cashmonkey's cautious AOR

Here's a link to SiS's thread where you can learn all about A0Rs.

I've gotten a lot out FWF over the past couple years, so I'm posting the details of an A0R in the hope it'll help someone else.

This is intentionally a small A0R. By applying for a few cards and then leveraging my existing lines, I should be able to reach my goal of 100k with <50% total utilization. Fewer new accounts and fewer inquiries will hopefully reduce or eliminate adverse action.

I've been applying for cards as results come in, giving me a chance to refine the strategy. I wasn't sure how big of an effect my existing 0% for life balances would have, and had I received a lot of denials early on, I would have aborted and paid them off before reattempting.

Goal: 100k in 0% money for at least 12 months.

Stats prior to application submission:

HHI: 75k
PM123 FAKOs: 793(TU) 770(EX) 758(EQ)

Existing balances from mini-A0R just over a year ago:

Citi: 17k (0% for life) on a 23k CL
Discover: 4k (0% for life) on a 6k CL
Chase: 16k (0% for 12 mo, expiring) on a 21k CL

Other existing accounts (at or near zero balance):

35k Costco AM3X (daily spender: gas, restaurants, travel)
50k BofA Platinum (daily spender: other)
5k BofA (3rd oldest card - 7 years)
1.3k Citi (2nd oldest card - 9 years)
16k Chase - parent's daily spender, I am joint account owner [not AU] (oldest card by far - 13 years)

1.5k Direct student loan, original balance 14k

Actions prior to applying for new credit:

I used Bill Pay to float my 16k Chase balance on my 50k BofA daily spender card, and then submitted a 17k BT request with my US Bank application (see below). Despite submitting disputes to the CRAs to zero out my reported Chase balance, I missed the window where the 16-17k balance didn't show -- BofA's statement cycle rolled around and the balance showed up there. If I had started earlier, I could have easily timed it better.

Cards applied for:

US Bank Linux Card (0% for 12 months, no BT fee)
Applied 2/24 with $17k BT request to BofA, pulled EQ, deferred
APPROVED 2/28 with 18k CL.
Requested CLI by phone, response by mail, DENIED (require 6 month payment history on account)
Paid $801 before statement could issue to get under 90% util.
result: 16.2k balance on an 18k CL.
minimum monthly payment = 1% of balance

Associated (Citi) (0% for 12 months, no BT fee)
Applied 3/02, pulled TU, deferred
APPROVED - received approval letter (dated 3/04) on 3/10.
Requested BT check online, check received 3/18.
result: 10.5k balance on a 12k CL.
minimum monthly payment = 1.5% of balance

Sony Chase Card (0% for 12 months, $75 fee cap)
D'oh! This link is for 1500 free points, not 5000 free points as available elsewhere. Oh well - didn't really care anyways. Can't buy a tasty Chipotle burrito with S0ny points.
Applied 3/04, pulled EQ, deferred.
APPROVED, 4k visible online 03/07, same day moved 20.5k over from my other Chase card (Flexible Rewards).
Reallocation took 2 calls. First CSR claimed they couldn't reallocate since it was an affiliate card. Second CSR was nice, we had a good conversation about Vancouver (where he was based), he reallocated with no problem but couldn't reallocate the entire 21k line - he had to leave 500 on the old card (which is fine, I'll leave it open). So, ultimately, I have 24.5k on the new card.
Wrote check to self from welcome package.
result: 22k balance on a 24.5k CL.
minimum monthly payment = 2% of balance

Juniper National Park Foundation (0% for 12 months, $50 fee cap)
Applied 3/05, pulled TU and then EQ two weeks later!
INSTANT APPROVAL for 15k
Wrote check to self from welcome package.
result: 13k balance on a 15k CL.
minimum monthly payment = 1% of balance

National City Lifespring Health Everyday Rewards (0% for 12 months, no BT fee)
Applied 3/05, pulled TU, apparently deferred ("we have received your application")
The application form never asked for income - very weird.
APPROVED 3/11 (from credit report), 12.5k line
Called and requested BT check and credit line of 20k (now they ask for employer + income), APPROVED
Paid 2k with bill pay service before statement issued (see update post below).
Check issued 3/14, finally received 3/20.
Fraud department closed my account 3/19 and I found out by mail on 3/25. (see update post below)
I called and confirmed my identity, they reinstated my account 3/26, new BT check received 3/31.
result: 18k balance on a 20k CL
minimum monthly payment = 2.5% of balance

Pentagon Federal CU Platinum Cash Rewards (better daily spender)
Applied requesting 15k credit line on 3/10, pulled EQ, deferred, APPROVED 3/11
Requested a CLI to 25k using their online form on 3/26, deferred, APPROVED 3/27
No additional hard pull for CLI, consistent with reports elsewhere that Pen Fed retains and reuses reports for 60 days.
result: 0 balance on a 25k CL for daily spending.

BofA NEA rewards (new link) (0% for 12 months, $30 fee cap)
Applied 3/10, pulled EXP, deferred
Called in 3/18, APPROVED - see details in update post below.
BofA wouldn't extend any more credit so I reallocated 40k from my 50k line.
(On 6/9, consolidated remaining 10k from the old line onto the NEA line, which is now 50k.)
Requested 20k direct deposit by phone, deposit posted 3/21.
result: 20k balance on a 50k CL
minimum monthly payment = 1% of balance
update: on 6/27, wrote myself a 9k BT check to raise BT balance up to 28.6k (total BT balance now 122k).

Wamu Platinum Mastercard to raise overall CL and get free FICO
Applied 3/13, pulled EXP
INSTANT APPROVAL, 9k
result: 0 balance on a 9k CL.

total inquiries:
TU: 0 (3 inquiries from this A0R bumped off as of 4/20, 1 restored on 7/4, bumped off 7/5)
EQ: 0 (3 inquiries from this A0R bumped off as of 5/14, +2 extra inquiries from Barclays disputed off)
EX: 6 (2 inquiries from this A0R +4 from last year)

BT money:
Citi: 17k (existing 0% for life)
Disc: 4k (existing 0% for life)
US Bank: 16.2k (BT requested with app)
Chase S0ny: 22k + 75 fee (BT check to self from welcome package)
Associated (Citi): 10.5k (check requested online)
Nat. City: 18k (check requested by phone)
Juniper: 13k + 50 fee (BT check to self from welcome package)
BofA: 20k + 30 fee (direct deposit requested by phone)

total BT money: 120.7k + 155 in fees

HYSA/Reward Checking Accounts:

Oregon Community Credit Union
Most of the BT money is going straight to my existing OCCU Remarkable Checking Account (originally paying 6.05%, then 4.50% APY as of 4/1, then 4.05% as of 6/1).

Heartland Community Bank
I also applied 3/12 for the Heartland Interest Plus Checking Account (originally paying 6%, then 5.06% APY as of mid-April) both for the interest increase on those 30k and the additional FDIC insurance since I would be over 100k at OCCU.

Heartland sent an email 3/14 requesting email or fax of driver license. Kind of annoying.
After I emailed them a copy, I got an acceptance letter that states "Your account number will be assigned and your account activated upon receipt of your signed signature card." So if you apply, save yourself some time and send the signature card (printable from the final online application screen) right away. Still, their account opening process is rather slow: only on 3/27 have they transferred my initial $2500 opening deposit, and I still haven't received welcome materials in the mail.

Heartland update (4/3): I now have access to their online banking service, and in the same email I was told the debit/ATM card has been ordered today. The account cycles on the second Tuesday of each month, and I get the increased APR for first partial month without meeting any requirements (nice, since I can't make purchases!). Yodlee does not list Heartland Community Bank, so I submitted a service request to add it.

Heartland update (4/17): I've transferred all but $5 out, keeping the rest at OCCU and AAFCU (see below). For now, the 0.5% Heartland-OCCU difference isn't enough to make an additional 12 debit card transactions a month (since OCCU is my primary checking account, I'm keeping most of the cash there). Still, I like the flexibility of having this account: if rates change, I'll shuffle things around.

Air Academy Federal Credit Union
On 4/1 I also applied for the AAFCU Max Checking account (which I "qualified" for by joining the AOG for $50. It seems now that it was intended that only employees of AOG be eligible to join AAFCU, and not AOG members at large, but so far so good - no one has complained), since it is still paying 6.01% APY on balances of up to 50k. (4.50% as of 6/1)

AAFCU update: On 4/17 received final necessary item (ATM PIN), and ~$50k is now sitting cozily in Colorado.
Minor annoyance: Yodlee cannot link to AAFCU because of image-based login procedure.

Adverse Action:
On 4/20, Juniper cut my credit line from 15,000 to 13,350, about 300 above my then current balance.
On 7/8, Chase cut my S0ny line from 24,500 to 20,800, about 500 above my then current balance.

Lessons learned:
One drawback of applying for so few cards: after revising my goal upwards (to whatever I can get), I'm running into the 50% overall utilization threshold. My total CLs (not including parent's joint account) are 247k (242k after adverse action). To be safe, I'm limiting myself to 120k in total BT balances.

This is where business credit would be great, but I have been staying away from that for now. Maybe next year.

Bottom line:
I'm happy. I would call this A0R a success, with a 100% approval rate and total BT funds 20% over my initial goal. Yay!
Unfortunately I'll need those extra funds with interest rates dropping again... and again...

Thanks for sharing your "tiny" A O R strategy and results.

It seems like you had a pretty strong starting position of having accounts with all the major issuers (BoA, Am Ex, Citi, Chase, Discover), so really only needed a few apps to refresh expired/expiring BT offers, and also looks like you are expand into the minor / 2nd tier issuers.

Unless you hide some of your borrowed debt off your credit report, you are going to be showing a very risky (IMO) > 100% HHI of combined credit card debt.

Take a look in the adverse action results, and you will find quite a few reports of people receiving it from major issuers (like Chase) with total repoted credit card debt in the 60's% HHI area (usually combined with high individual account utilization, which IMO you may also qualify for at the 89% level generally selected. You are right that fewer apps is a good thing to try and draw less attention though. (You did do 8, though.)

Maybe you are comfortable with these risks though. Or are OK if a little A/A should hit. I can understand how taking some risk is worth it for the profit of the extra borrowed debt. Sometimes it's better to give up some easy money today, to make larger amount tomorrow.

If you get the BOA NEA, you might consider performing a "rolling BT", taking 100% utilization and paying down to $0 right before statement close, to repeat the cycle of 100% utilized BT the next cycle. It's extra work, but will hide all that debt and you have a large enough BoA credit line to easily overcome the $30 monthly bt fee. I have been doing this with them for quite a while and it has worked great!

I consider the "rolling BT" a more ethical option of hiding debt, than using business credit cards for personal use.

Best of luck!

Ethical? what a joke!

I'm going to start a business, it's sole purpose is to invest credit card money!

Boy that was hard!

More ethical, perhaps, But riskier, certainly!

You could also hook it up with a billpay service from a bank account of yours.

I tried some of the links and they are broken, you may change http to https

good little AOR thanks for updates

cashmonkey said: Update on BofA NEA rewards:

I transferred 40k to the new card. She then asked me if I wanted to do a BT then and there. I'll admit I wasn't brazen enough to ask for a check since I'd just revealed my game, but I still think it would have been fine. As is I'll call a standard CSR later and get a ~20k check.

Just call back and have them direct deposit the money into checking. No point in dealing with a check and losing out on interest. They probably would have had no problems doing a DD immediately after you talked to the credit analyst. BofA is extremely easy to work with when it comes to getting money out of your credit line.

dvm395 said: Just call back and have them direct deposit the money into checking.Done and done. Thanks! I did know they do DD but it slipped my mind after having to request checks from other banks. Yay, shiny new $20k in my account. The CSR was very impressed with the terms on this card, too, - it was kind of funny.

lhendricks92 said: Of all the big banks, BofA seems to know the most and care the least about BT arbitrage.
I think you're right about the BTs themselves, but BoA gave me a stern warning when I created a credit balance on one of my cards by overpaying its balance when a did a BT from another bank's credit card. They allowed it, but said it was against the rules of use for the card. In hindsight, I should have simply done another BT with the BoA card first so that the upcoming BT wouldn't have created a credit balance.

The CSR's next statement, however, was more ominous: BoA carefully monitors how funds move between your accounts. So if you do a BT with your BoA card, ask them to transfer it to your BoA checking account, and move those funds to a better yielding account at another institution, it sounds like a potential recipe for adverse action, especially if you repeat the process. So when doing a BT from my BoA card to a checking account, I now designate one of my Rewards Checking accounts as the destination for the BT funds. IOW, I recommend against using a BoA deposit account to funnel BT money elsewhere. Just my opinion.

glxpass said: lhendricks92 said: Of all the big banks, BofA seems to know the most and care the least about BT arbitrage.
I think you're right about the BTs themselves, but BoA gave me a stern warning when I created a credit balance on one of my cards by overpaying its balance when a did a BT from another bank's credit card. They allowed it, but said it was against the rules of use for the card. In hindsight, I should have simply done another BT with the BoA card first so that the upcoming BT wouldn't have created a credit balance.

The CSR's next statement, however, was more ominous: BoA carefully monitors how funds move between your accounts. So if you do a BT with your BoA card, ask them to transfer it to your BoA checking account, and move those funds to a better yielding account at another institution, it sounds like a potential recipe for adverse action, especially if you repeat the process. So when doing a BT from my BoA card to a checking account, I now designate one of my Rewards Checking accounts as the destination for the BT funds. IOW, I recommend against using a BoA deposit account to funnel BT money elsewhere. Just my opinion.

Absolutely correct - BofA wants you take their money, but they don't want to see it. Not a good place to do your laundry.

FWF = FatWallet Finance forum, and I've added the A0R link to the top of the first post.
Happy reading.

win333 said: How can you have 2K posts and not know what any of this is?Easy - most of those 2k posts weren't in the finance forum.

When I applied, it simply said "a promotion code is not available for this product," and I think the box was grayed out. So no, no promo code.

Yes. From what I remember, the conversation went like this:

Me: "Hi, I just received my new credit card and I was wondering if you could send me a balance transfer as a check so that I could pay off some personal debt."
CSR: "Sure, what's your account number?"
Me: "It's XXXX. Also, I noticed my line is only 12,500. Could I get a credit line increase to get a larger balance transfer?"
CSR: "I can help you with that. How much would you like?"
Me: "Well, let's say 20,000."
CSR: "OK, an increase of 8000, let me see about that. I'll need some information: what's your annual income? Who do you work for?"

gave the info, then sat on hold for about 10 minutes.

CSR: "Hello? Congratulations, I got that increase approved for you. What address would you like the check sent to?"

Then I had to give him my home/billing address, even spelling out street and city name. Odd that he didn't have access to it. Also, as mentioned above, he automatically cut the check for the entire increased credit line without asking if that's exactly what I wanted.

xCarsonx said: win333 said: Ethical? what a joke!

I agree. Banks that will raise interest rates with no warning or reason, and do things like cancel CC because you have high balances with other issuers deserve to get screwed over. They have been attacking people with a lack of credit knowledge for years and now that it is biting them back they want a bail out from the gov't.

That's unethical.

I totally agree with this reasoning as well... when Capital One rose my 5.9 FIXED APR into the mid teens for NO REASON (I have had virtually no change in credit status and NO lates etc), what was "ethical" about that??? I had to flash my high credit score in their face just to get it back down to the 7ish% area (I don't use this card, but it is my emergency low interest rate card)..

The irony? It is the "NO hassles card" HA...

Anyways, sorry to threadcrap -- I do want to say I respect all that do the AOR.. I am just too wimpy to do it myself (but have considered it many times)...

cashmonkey said: Update: a second hard inquiry from Barclays Bank (Juniper) just showed up on PM123. WTF?

The original inquiry:
BRCLYSBANKDE, 3/5/2008, TransUnion
The new inquiry:
BARCBKDE, 3/21/2008, Equ!fax

I'm tempted to dispute it. Still, I did request credit from Barclays... just two weeks earlier!

Have you been approved yet?

cashmonkey said: win333 said: Have you been approved yet?Yeah, approved, have the card, and their 13k has been sitting in my bank account for over a week. Maybe the check settling process triggered something... ?

That sucks!

I've been think i'm going to freeze all 3 reports after my AOR.

jevon90 said: I guarantee the second Inquiry came when you got the 12.5 to 20K CLI:
If I'm not wrong, the second inquiry was from Juniper. The 12.5 to 20k CLI was from National City and without an additional credit pull.

Correct, cashmonkey?

cashmonkey said: lp244 said: jevon90 said: I guarantee the second Inquiry came when you got the 12.5 to 20K CLI:
If I'm not wrong, the second inquiry was from Juniper. The 12.5 to 20k CLI was from National City and without an additional credit pull.

Correct, cashmonkey?That's correct - no CLI requested or received on the Juniper card. My application was approved instantly, too.
My bad, I mistook National City for the National Parks card it seems or I'm growing stupider. anyways I have no idea why you got the second inq then.

Well, that's pretty much how my conversation went with a ninja went a couple of years ago. But he took the extra time to rattle off names of new accounts just to rub it in a bit. Just a shot, I guess.

cashmonkey said:

• Too few accounts with time on file greater than 36 months