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Cashmonkey's cautious AOR Archived From: Finance

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Here's a link to SiS's thread where you can learn all about A0Rs.

I've gotten a lot out FWF over the past couple years, so I'm posting the details of an A0R in the hope it'll help someone else.

This is intentionally a small A0R. By applying for a few cards and then leveraging my existing lines, I should be able to reach my goal of 100k with <50% total utilization. Fewer new accounts and fewer inquiries will hopefully reduce or eliminate adverse action.

I've been applying for cards as results come in, giving me a chance to refine the strategy. I wasn't sure how big of an effect my existing 0% for life balances would have, and had I received a lot of denials early on, I would have aborted and paid them off before reattempting.


Goal: 100k in 0% money for at least 12 months.

Stats prior to application submission:

HHI: 75k
PM123 FAKOs: 793(TU) 770(EX) 758(EQ)

Existing balances from mini-A0R just over a year ago:

    Citi: 17k (0% for life) on a 23k CL
    Discover: 4k (0% for life) on a 6k CL
    Chase: 16k (0% for 12 mo, expiring) on a 21k CL

Other existing accounts (at or near zero balance):

    35k Costco AM3X (daily spender: gas, restaurants, travel)
    50k BofA Platinum (daily spender: other)
    5k BofA (3rd oldest card - 7 years)
    1.3k Citi (2nd oldest card - 9 years)
    16k Chase - parent's daily spender, I am joint account owner [not AU] (oldest card by far - 13 years)

    1.5k Direct student loan, original balance 14k

Actions prior to applying for new credit:

I used Bill Pay to float my 16k Chase balance on my 50k BofA daily spender card, and then submitted a 17k BT request with my US Bank application (see below). Despite submitting disputes to the CRAs to zero out my reported Chase balance, I missed the window where the 16-17k balance didn't show -- BofA's statement cycle rolled around and the balance showed up there. If I had started earlier, I could have easily timed it better.

Cards applied for:

US Bank Linux Card (0% for 12 months, no BT fee)
Applied 2/24 with $17k BT request to BofA, pulled EQ, deferred
APPROVED 2/28 with 18k CL.
Requested CLI by phone, response by mail, DENIED (require 6 month payment history on account)
Paid $801 before statement could issue to get under 90% util.
result: 16.2k balance on an 18k CL.
minimum monthly payment = 1% of balance

Associated (Citi) (0% for 12 months, no BT fee)
Applied 3/02, pulled TU, deferred
APPROVED - received approval letter (dated 3/04) on 3/10.
Requested BT check online, check received 3/18.
result: 10.5k balance on a 12k CL.
minimum monthly payment = 1.5% of balance

Sony Chase Card (0% for 12 months, $75 fee cap)
D'oh! This link is for 1500 free points, not 5000 free points as available elsewhere. Oh well - didn't really care anyways. Can't buy a tasty Chipotle burrito with S0ny points.
Applied 3/04, pulled EQ, deferred.
APPROVED, 4k visible online 03/07, same day moved 20.5k over from my other Chase card (Flexible Rewards).
Reallocation took 2 calls. First CSR claimed they couldn't reallocate since it was an affiliate card. Second CSR was nice, we had a good conversation about Vancouver (where he was based), he reallocated with no problem but couldn't reallocate the entire 21k line - he had to leave 500 on the old card (which is fine, I'll leave it open). So, ultimately, I have 24.5k on the new card.
Wrote check to self from welcome package.
result: 22k balance on a 24.5k CL.
minimum monthly payment = 2% of balance

Juniper National Park Foundation (0% for 12 months, $50 fee cap)
Applied 3/05, pulled TU and then EQ two weeks later!
INSTANT APPROVAL for 15k
Wrote check to self from welcome package.
result: 13k balance on a 15k CL.
minimum monthly payment = 1% of balance

National City Lifespring Health Everyday Rewards (0% for 12 months, no BT fee)
Applied 3/05, pulled TU, apparently deferred ("we have received your application")
The application form never asked for income - very weird.
APPROVED 3/11 (from credit report), 12.5k line
Called and requested BT check and credit line of 20k (now they ask for employer + income), APPROVED
Paid 2k with bill pay service before statement issued (see update post below).
Check issued 3/14, finally received 3/20.
Fraud department closed my account 3/19 and I found out by mail on 3/25. (see update post below)
I called and confirmed my identity, they reinstated my account 3/26, new BT check received 3/31.

result: 18k balance on a 20k CL
minimum monthly payment = 2.5% of balance

Pentagon Federal CU Platinum Cash Rewards (better daily spender)
Applied requesting 15k credit line on 3/10, pulled EQ, deferred, APPROVED 3/11
Requested a CLI to 25k using their online form on 3/26, deferred, APPROVED 3/27
No additional hard pull for CLI, consistent with reports elsewhere that Pen Fed retains and reuses reports for 60 days.
result: 0 balance on a 25k CL for daily spending.

BofA NEA rewards (new link) (0% for 12 months, $30 fee cap)
Applied 3/10, pulled EXP, deferred
Called in 3/18, APPROVED - see details in update post below.
BofA wouldn't extend any more credit so I reallocated 40k from my 50k line.
(On 6/9, consolidated remaining 10k from the old line onto the NEA line, which is now 50k.)
Requested 20k direct deposit by phone, deposit posted 3/21.
result: 20k balance on a 50k CL
minimum monthly payment = 1% of balance
update: on 6/27, wrote myself a 9k BT check to raise BT balance up to 28.6k (total BT balance now 122k).

Wamu Platinum Mastercard to raise overall CL and get free FICO
Applied 3/13, pulled EXP
INSTANT APPROVAL, 9k
result: 0 balance on a 9k CL.

total inquiries:
TU: 0 (3 inquiries from this A0R bumped off as of 4/20, 1 restored on 7/4, bumped off 7/5)
EQ: 0 (3 inquiries from this A0R bumped off as of 5/14, +2 extra inquiries from Barclays disputed off)
EX: 6 (2 inquiries from this A0R +4 from last year)

BT money:
Citi: 17k (existing 0% for life)
Disc: 4k (existing 0% for life)
US Bank: 16.2k (BT requested with app)
Chase S0ny: 22k + 75 fee (BT check to self from welcome package)
Associated (Citi): 10.5k (check requested online)
Nat. City: 18k (check requested by phone)
Juniper: 13k + 50 fee (BT check to self from welcome package)
BofA: 20k + 30 fee (direct deposit requested by phone)

total BT money: 120.7k + 155 in fees


HYSA/Reward Checking Accounts:

Oregon Community Credit Union
Most of the BT money is going straight to my existing OCCU Remarkable Checking Account (originally paying 6.05%, then 4.50% APY as of 4/1, then 4.05% as of 6/1).

Heartland Community Bank
I also applied 3/12 for the Heartland Interest Plus Checking Account (originally paying 6%, then 5.06% APY as of mid-April) both for the interest increase on those 30k and the additional FDIC insurance since I would be over 100k at OCCU.

Heartland sent an email 3/14 requesting email or fax of driver license. Kind of annoying.
After I emailed them a copy, I got an acceptance letter that states "Your account number will be assigned and your account activated upon receipt of your signed signature card." So if you apply, save yourself some time and send the signature card (printable from the final online application screen) right away. Still, their account opening process is rather slow: only on 3/27 have they transferred my initial $2500 opening deposit, and I still haven't received welcome materials in the mail.

Heartland update (4/3): I now have access to their online banking service, and in the same email I was told the debit/ATM card has been ordered today. The account cycles on the second Tuesday of each month, and I get the increased APR for first partial month without meeting any requirements (nice, since I can't make purchases!). Yodlee does not list Heartland Community Bank, so I submitted a service request to add it.

Heartland update (4/17): I've transferred all but $5 out, keeping the rest at OCCU and AAFCU (see below). For now, the 0.5% Heartland-OCCU difference isn't enough to make an additional 12 debit card transactions a month (since OCCU is my primary checking account, I'm keeping most of the cash there). Still, I like the flexibility of having this account: if rates change, I'll shuffle things around.

Air Academy Federal Credit Union
On 4/1 I also applied for the AAFCU Max Checking account (which I "qualified" for by joining the AOG for $50. It seems now that it was intended that only employees of AOG be eligible to join AAFCU, and not AOG members at large, but so far so good - no one has complained), since it is still paying 6.01% APY on balances of up to 50k. (4.50% as of 6/1)

AAFCU update: On 4/17 received final necessary item (ATM PIN), and ~$50k is now sitting cozily in Colorado.
Minor annoyance: Yodlee cannot link to AAFCU because of image-based login procedure.


Adverse Action:
On 4/20, Juniper cut my credit line from 15,000 to 13,350, about 300 above my then current balance.
On 7/8, Chase cut my S0ny line from 24,500 to 20,800, about 500 above my then current balance.

Lessons learned:
One drawback of applying for so few cards: after revising my goal upwards (to whatever I can get), I'm running into the 50% overall utilization threshold. My total CLs (not including parent's joint account) are 247k (242k after adverse action). To be safe, I'm limiting myself to 120k in total BT balances.

This is where business credit would be great, but I have been staying away from that for now. Maybe next year.


Bottom line:
I'm happy. I would call this A0R a success, with a 100% approval rate and total BT funds 20% over my initial goal. Yay!
Unfortunately I'll need those extra funds with interest rates dropping again... and again...


Quick Summary is created and edited by users like you... Add FAQ's, Links and other Relevant Information by clicking the edit button in the lower right hand corner of this message.


alert mods    

Thanks for sharing your "tiny" A O R strategy and results.

It seems like you had a pretty strong starting position of having accounts with all the major issuers (BoA, Am Ex, Citi, Chase, Discover), so really only needed a few apps to refresh expired/expiring BT offers, and also looks like you are expand into the minor / 2nd tier issuers.

Unless you hide some of your borrowed debt off your credit report, you are going to be showing a very risky (IMO) > 100% HHI of combined credit card debt.

Take a look in the adverse action results, and you will find quite a few reports of people receiving it from major issuers (like Chase) with total repoted credit card debt in the 60's% HHI area (usually combined with high individual account utilization, which IMO you may also qualify for at the 89% level generally selected. You are right that fewer apps is a good thing to try and draw less attention though. (You did do 8, though.)

Maybe you are comfortable with these risks though. Or are OK if a little A/A should hit. I can understand how taking some risk is worth it for the profit of the extra borrowed debt. Sometimes it's better to give up some easy money today, to make larger amount tomorrow.

If you get the BOA NEA, you might consider performing a "rolling BT", taking 100% utilization and paying down to $0 right before statement close, to repeat the cycle of 100% utilized BT the next cycle. It's extra work, but will hide all that debt and you have a large enough BoA credit line to easily overcome the $30 monthly bt fee. I have been doing this with them for quite a while and it has worked great!

I consider the "rolling BT" a more ethical option of hiding debt, than using business credit cards for personal use.

Best of luck!


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Thanks, jakeru. I'll think about the NEA rolling BT. My only concern is that I would like to avoid triggering anything with BofA, as the 55k I have with them now really keeps my utilization down and helps me get other cards (I think).

As for total credit card debt > HHI .. well, besides cutting down on debt, the only thing I can do is get a raise, so I'll work on that
I'm ok with a little adverse action, and unless it's a landslide, I don't think it'll strongly impact my ability to do similar things in the future (when I hopefully have a larger HHI).

And yeah, while I intended to apply for even fewer cards (4 or 5, originally), I kept finding more cards to apply for (thanks in part to your thread!), and it's kind of fun to do, so I kept going. Curious to see if and when Chase will protest.


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Ethical? what a joke!

I'm going to start a business, it's sole purpose is to invest credit card money!

Boy that was hard!


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win333 said:Ethical? what a joke!

I agree. Banks that will raise interest rates with no warning or reason, and do things like cancel CC because you have high balances with other issuers deserve to get screwed over. They have been attacking people with a lack of credit knowledge for years and now that it is biting them back they want a bail out from the gov't.

That's unethical.


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More ethical, perhaps, But riskier, certainly!


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Minor bump in the road with National City:

When calling in for my BT check, I requested a CLI, and the CSR automatically issued a check for the full increased line. I could have asked him to change it, I suppose, but I figured I'll just pay it down to 89% when I get the check. The 20k balance posted immediately on my account online.

I want to make this payment before the statement is issued (to avoid 100% utilization showing up on my credit reports).

Turns out their website doesn't let you make a payment unless you have been issued a statement!

Their automated phone service charges $10 to make a payment, and it's $14.95 if you do it through a CSR. It is fee-free if you have a Nat City checking account, which I don't.

You can mail a check, but they say the payment could be delayed up to 5 days if you don't include the top portion of your statement.

So I'm mailing a check now, and I haven't even received the BT check yet...


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You could also hook it up with a billpay service from a bank account of yours.


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markkundinger said:You could also hook it up with a billpay service from a bank account of yours.Good point! Never really got around to setting that up in the past, but I'll try it now...

Edit: took a couple days after the payment was debited from my checking account, but it finally showed up at Nat City. Yay.


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I tried some of the links and they are broken, you may change http to https


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74ak said:I tried some of the links and they are broken, you may change http to httpsAh, thanks, fixed!


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good little AOR thanks for updates


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Update on BofA NEA rewards:

Got tired of waiting on them so I called the application status line on 3/18 (Thanks skander for the great thread). I was quickly transferred by the front line CSR to a credit analyst.

The analyst had my credit report from the application date, asked about my ~38k in credit card debt - specifically, what I had spent that on. Honestly told her I had it all in high yield savings accounts. She then asked what rate I was getting, I told her 5%, and what rate I was paying, I told her 0%. Then she told me that she noticed I had a 50k card with them and that they felt I had enough credit with BofA, but she could reallocate CL from the 50k card to open the new card.

I transferred 40k to the new card. She then asked me if I wanted to do a BT then and there. I'll admit I wasn't brazen enough to ask for a check since I'd just revealed my game, but I still think it would have been fine. As is I'll call a standard CSR later and get a ~20k check.


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cashmonkey said:Update on BofA NEA rewards:

I transferred 40k to the new card. She then asked me if I wanted to do a BT then and there. I'll admit I wasn't brazen enough to ask for a check since I'd just revealed my game, but I still think it would have been fine. As is I'll call a standard CSR later and get a ~20k check.

Just call back and have them direct deposit the money into checking. No point in dealing with a check and losing out on interest. They probably would have had no problems doing a DD immediately after you talked to the credit analyst. BofA is extremely easy to work with when it comes to getting money out of your credit line.


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Of all the big banks, BofA seems to know the most and care the least about BT arbitrage.


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dvm395 said:Just call back and have them direct deposit the money into checking.Done and done. Thanks! I did know they do DD but it slipped my mind after having to request checks from other banks. Yay, shiny new $20k in my account. The CSR was very impressed with the terms on this card, too, - it was kind of funny.


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I don't mean to hijack your thread here but I have a similar situation with BofA. I was given a 0% BT check and I called them on the phone to better understand the terms. My first BT by the way. They gave me a cap rate of $90 plus they also said that I have 2 credit cards with them and that they are willing to combine the 2 to get more money on the BT. Is this normal? Is it safe to give my checking account number over the phone for transfer? Is the cap rate for $90 a normal fee? The whole amount for BT is for $34000. Thanks


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lhendricks92 said:Of all the big banks, BofA seems to know the most and care the least about BT arbitrage.
I think you're right about the BTs themselves, but BoA gave me a stern warning when I created a credit balance on one of my cards by overpaying its balance when a did a BT from another bank's credit card. They allowed it, but said it was against the rules of use for the card. In hindsight, I should have simply done another BT with the BoA card first so that the upcoming BT wouldn't have created a credit balance.

The CSR's next statement, however, was more ominous: BoA carefully monitors how funds move between your accounts. So if you do a BT with your BoA card, ask them to transfer it to your BoA checking account, and move those funds to a better yielding account at another institution, it sounds like a potential recipe for adverse action, especially if you repeat the process. So when doing a BT from my BoA card to a checking account, I now designate one of my Rewards Checking accounts as the destination for the BT funds. IOW, I recommend against using a BoA deposit account to funnel BT money elsewhere. Just my opinion.


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petenth said:I don't mean to hijack your thread here but I have a similar situation with BofA. I was given a 0% BT check and I called them on the phone to better understand the terms. My first BT by the way. They gave me a cap rate of $90 plus they also said that I have 2 credit cards with them and that they are willing to combine the 2 to get more money on the BT. Is this normal? Is it safe to give my checking account number over the phone for transfer? Is the cap rate for $90 a normal fee? The whole amount for BT is for $34000. Thanks
Your situation sounds totally normal.

If you initiated the call, it's definitely safe to give out your checking and routing numbers.

The fee cap depends on which card you have; in general, if the fee is capped you're already in a good position. Many are uncapped, say, 3% of the balance transfer with no maximum. To my knowledge, the $30 NEA fee cap is the smallest BofA has available, but $90 sounds fine.


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