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Ben Stein on the Media-made Recession

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To me, this article is a very refreshing read:
Ben Stein article on Recession
I assume it will be for most of you as well.

It does irk me, however, how many of the doom and gloomers are rating this article 1 star.

The fact is, the hard data shows we are not in a recession, but its almost like some of the readers WANT us to be in a recession. I don't get it. It goes without saying, the media wants everyone to think the end of the world is coming, but I don't get why after reading an article like this one, people will not concede the fact that A. We aren't in a recession, B. Times have always been tough to some extent and people have always had to work for money, and C. The media is selling us a recession no matter what the data says.

Read the article and comment. If you like it, I'd like to see the FW community rate it well and throw up some of our own comments. Fight the doom and gloom permabear media and the zombies who follow them mindlessly.

Message edited by: rollingrock on 2008-05-12 12:44:15 CDT
Moderator Comment: This thread has been placed under moderation for going off topic. — May. 15, 2008 @ 7:24am

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Do we really need yet another thread on the economy.

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lostdude said:Do we really need yet another thread on the economy.

Amen.. To add to this point, we don't need another stupid thread discussing this. The fact of the matter is we're at the crossroads, and we'll just have to see which way we go. This thread is no different than any other thread, and having the perma-bull Ben Stein saying something doesn't change the facts.

Anyone remember him saying to buy MER and other financials last yr? lol He lost folks a lot of money if you listened to him last yr. It's rather comical looking back how everyone on Faux news was blasting Schiff for saying to buy commodities and Ben Stein said to buy financials..

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Ever since he made that stupid movie promoting creationism I lost all respect for Ben Stein. Besides, why is it such a horrible thing if we are in a recession? The economy is cyclical, and while it's unfortunate for people who lose their jobs that is just the way life works. "Stimulus packages" and similar stupidity will only delay the inevitable.

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swandown said:rollingrock said:The fact is, the hard data shows we are not in a recession

The hard data shows that the economy is doing very, very poorly.


"The economy is doing very, very poorly" does not make for a very good headline, now does it? The bottom line is, the irresponsible media plastering every medium of the media with "Recession" gets the general population into a kind of "the sky is falling" mentality that has the unnessary effect of convincing many of us that we are in a recession, when we aren't. Reinforcing the original post, for some, its very difficult to admit, but the facts show, we simply are NOT in a recession.

swandown said:Maybe not a "recession" in the technical, "government dictionary" sense . . .
Hmmm.. I wasn't aware of this government dictionary. Which dictionary do you use? Shall we change the definition (or throw away the dictionary) so that the definition means what YOU would like it to mean? I'm sure the media would love that. Two declining quarters of Real GDP, that's what a recession is. Bashing Republicans and the country isn't going to change that.

Sheesh, completely missed the point.

Anyhow, this isn't just another thread. It's a reference to an article that has some significance. This is the first I've recently seen to actually discuss and detail the fact that we really aren't in a recession, though the media would have you believe otherwise.

Message edited by: rollingrock on 2008-05-12 12:48:04 CDT
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rollingrock said:Two declining quarters of GDP, that's what a recession is.

Actually a recession is two declining quarters of *REAL* GDP. That means that if nominal GDP grows 2%, but inflation is 4%, then real GDP went down.

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rollingrock said:The fact is, the hard data shows we are not in a recession, but its almost like some of the readers WANT us to be in a recession. I don't get it. I like the article but its subject line is actually very illuminating: the fact that we are not technically in a recession doesn't mean that a large percentage of the population isn't suffering.

We can spend quite some time discussing whether the housing correction taking place in a lot of areas is needed and/or deserved, just like we can spend a lot of time looking for people and policies to blame for it. Regardless of the outcome of that discussion, there is no doubt that it's not just the "dumb speculators" and "people living beyond their means" who are finding themselves losing quite a bit of money in real estate now. Likewise, there are plenty of sectors in the economy that are suffering quite a bit, and plenty of extremely well educated people have found themselves without jobs.

All of the above certainly does not mean that every area of the country and every segment of the population is suffering. There are ways of making lots of money in any economy out there and many of us are doing just that. Likewise, a slowing economy can actually keep many of us MUCH busier at our jobs than an economy that's just chugging along.

The point here is that almost by definition, ANY generalized description of the state of the economy is likely to be inaccurate and inapplicable to a huge percentage of the population. Hence, the state of the economy is always in the eye of the beholder -- if you are doing well, you probably don't care whether people are labelling it a recession or a slowdown; likewise, if you are on the brink of a financial disaster, the fact the we are not technically in a recession provides no consolation to you.

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djheini said:rollingrock said:Two declining quarters of GDP, that's what a recession is.

Actually a recession is two declining quarters of *REAL* GDP. That means that if nominal GDP grows 2%, but inflation is 4%, then real GDP went down.
That is a good distinction to make. Real GDP is always used with making any comparison over time. Real GDP isn't declining either, though. (Source)

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rollingrock said:"The economy is doing very, very poorly" does not make for a very good headline, now does it? The bottom line is, the irresponsible media plastering every medium of the media with "Recession" gets the general population into a kind of "the sky is falling" mentality that has the unnessary effect of convincing many of us that we are in a recession, when we aren't.I agree with this as well and people do need to be mindful that sensationalist reports about plummeting housing prices and difficult employment situation may or may not have anything to do with their situation locally. There is no doubt, however, that the scary housing reports (or welcomed housing reports -- it all depends on where you stand) coming out of parts of California, Nevada and Washington, DC have had a significant psychological effect on people, which has caused housing prices to drop in other areas without the same structural issues as the most hard hit areas.

This is not an entirely new phenomenon, however. For dozens of years now we have seen significant overcorrections in the stock market, housing market, etc... These overcorrections and the general hysteria that seems to overcome plenty of people out there and leaves them paralyzed is exactly the reason that many of us find wonderful buying opportunities during these events. For instance, as I've posted in this thread, we live in an area that did not experience the enormous run-ups in housing prices seen in California and Florida, so the housing correction has actually been quite modest. A month ago, however, we were able to close on a fantastic and very upscale house for only 5% more than the previous owners paid for it in '02 when they bought it brand new at a price that was pretty competitive at the time. The lender's own appraiser appraised it for a whopping 41% higher than our purchase price; the county's tax assessors have just estimated its value 36% higher than the purchase price (although this serves as further confirmation of the deal, I'll try to convince the county to lower it, so we can reduce our property taxes). This isn't exactly a starter home either, so this "discount" translates into very nice 6 figures.

I do expect to take a small bath on the sale of our condo that we now have to sell (still won't be a loss, since I bought it quite well -- the gain will just be small), but I fully expect the loss to be more than offset by buying a great house on "sale." We did not purchase the house for speculative purposes, however. We had just outgrown our condo and required much more space and different features. We will probably stay in the house for about 5-6 years, so even if my analysis is dead wrong, we will still do just fine when it is time to sell.

The point of my post is that instead of fighting all these "recession" labels that may or may not be applicable to your area, your time will often be better spent looking at these labels and at the mass hysteria as opportunities to improve your own financial situation, whether it be by purchasing assets at a discount, going back to school so you'll be more marketable in the future, acquiring recession-related skills at your job, etc...

Message edited by: geo123 on 2008-05-12 13:48:14 CDT
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workindev said:Real GDP isn't declining either, though. (Source)

Although that spreadsheet says "real" gdp isn't declining, they're not clear how they come up with "real." We on the other hand, can easily calculate "real" gdp growth by simply taking the quarterly growth rate, and subtracting the current inflation rate (we'll use CPI, which was ~4%). Since the actual annual growth in gdp is <4%, we know inflation adjusted ("real") gdp is in fact negative. The "real" gdp growth rate's importance is obvious as it substitutes price inflation for real growth.

An interesting point which I don't believe is factored into the GDP numbers is population growth.. With the population growth rate of just under .9% Source, this means per capita gdp growth is very close to flat. Just something else to think about in terms of per capita growth rather than the larger gdp number.

Message edited by: Dealguy123 on 2008-05-12 13:51:22 CDT
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rollingrock said:C. The media is selling us a recession no matter what the data says.
.

The official definition of a recession is really very simple. If a financial reportor mistakenly reports that the US is already in a recession he or she will lose all credibility and perhaps gets fired pretty quickly. What's the media is saying that the US is heading into a recession, which is just a forecast. (In fact, the media does not predict either, it reports economists who predict). I personally believe the forecast will be proven right, but that is not the issue.

I'd rate the article very low, because a. it annouces that we are not in a recession, which is a fact not in dispute as far as I can tell, b. it refers to the "media" creating recession without a single case of such error. Also what is the "anecdotal" stuff about house prices picking up in so. cal and washington DC area? I add this guy to the to be ignored list of gurus.

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nycll said:I'd rate the article very low, because a. it annouces that we are not in a recession, which is a fact not in dispute as far as I can tell,
Even according to CNN, 3/4 of those polled think we are in a recession:
The poll

Message edited by: SlimyTadpole on 2008-05-12 14:20:50 CDT
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nycll said:If a financial reportor mistakenly reports that the US is already in a recession he or she will lose all credibility and perhaps gets fired pretty quickly. What's the media is saying that the US is heading into a recession, which is just a forecast. (In fact, the media does not predict either, it reports economists who predict). I personally believe the forecast will be proven right, but that is not the issue. Not quite. There are plenty of headlines that do say "US consumers losing faith," "Analysts believe US is already in recession," etc... Whether or not the headlines are factually accurate is, of course, important, but I think that the OP's point is that a lot of areas of the economy are not doing nearly as poorly as you would think if you just scanned the headlines and read newsarticles detailing all the terrible economic news but not always mentioning the upsides that we are experiencing (and there are plenty of those).

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geo123 said:Not quite. There are plenty of headlines that do say "US consumers losing faith," "Analysts believe US is already in recession," etc... Whether or not the headlines are factually accurate is, of course, important, but I think that the OP's point is that a lot of areas of the economy are not doing nearly as poorly as you would think if you just scanned the headlines and read newsarticles detailing all the terrible economic news but not always mentioning the upsides that we are experiencing (and there are plenty of those).

First off, the question of whether we are now in a recession is in fact debatable, depending on how you define a recession. Like others and myself just mentioned, we had what a .6% quarterly GDP growth rate for gdp, yet inflation is running at ~4% annually. REAL gdp growth is in fact negative, but leaving out an inflation adjusted gdp, it's positive. For most people, it's a very "personal" feeling, and different parts of the country can be experiencing different growth rates, thus some parts of the country are in a recession vs. other parts. This is why some people say "we're in a recession," even though perhaps the whole country isn't, by some definition. "Real" gdp growth is impossible to measure 100% accurately, and thus you will always have disagreements. Do you consider the upcoming "growth" in the next quarters in gdp due to the stimulus check "real" growth? I don't.. That's like buying a TV on your credit card and not thinking about the future interest payments you'll have to make on it. It ultimately actually has to be paid for, WITH INTEREST. With the stimulus, there's no actual growth in production, you've had debt based growth (taxpayers borrowed money against their future). Now, debt based growth can be a very good thing (if you use it to make more money, such as investing it, etc.), but if you just use that stimulus check to buy a TV, you've purchased a depreciating asset, and thus no real "growth" comes out of the debt based "growth." Inflation numbers are a very sticky subject, and that leaves the door open to even more interpretation..

Anyway, the point is, many folks define "recession" differently, that's largely what it boils down to. What this leads to is an argument on "how exactly do you define a recession," which is merely arguing over semantics.. something I don't care for. Stein is also on my list of "analysts to ignore," and his pure speculation that DC real estate will flatten and start rising again soon is pure folly (notice he uses ZERO arguments to support his case except for the "everyone needs somewhere to live" argument).

Message edited by: Dealguy123 on 2008-05-12 14:37:23 CDT
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Dealguy123 said:workindev said:Real GDP isn't declining either, though. (Source)

Although that spreadsheet says "real" gdp isn't declining, they're not clear how they come up with "real." We on the other hand, can easily calculate "real" gdp growth by simply taking the quarterly growth rate, and subtracting the current inflation rate (we'll use CPI, which was ~4%). Since the actual annual growth in gdp is <4%, we know inflation adjusted ("real") gdp is in fact negative. The "real" gdp growth rate's importance is obvious as it substitutes price inflation for real growth.
Huh? Nominal GDP growth from Q1 2007 to Q1 2008 was 4.6% ($13.551 Trillion to $14.186 Trillion), CPI was 4%. That is real GDP growth. It may be small, but it is still positive growth.

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workindev said:Huh? Nominal GDP growth from Q1 2007 to Q1 2008 was 4.6% ($13.551 Trillion to $14.186 Trillion), CPI was 4%. That is real GDP growth. It may be small, but it is still positive growth.

The "problem" with using the numbers you did is that you're starting from Q1 '07. That's backwards looking, and is why people say we're in a recession NOW, but it'll take some time for the numbers to confirm it (and which leaves it open to debate). Let's look at individual quarters instead.. Looking at Q4 '07 to Q1 '08, we had a quarterly growth rate of just under .8%. If inflation is in fact ~4%, that means a flat/negative gdp growth rate.

EDIT: Look at Q3 '07 to Q4 '07 and it also shows a growth rate of just under .8%. If you inflation adjust (assuming 4% inflation rate), we've had 2 consecutive quarters of negative gdp growth (aka recession by definition). It seems like you and other folks are looking for 2 straight quarters of negative absolute gdp growth, where others are using inflation adjusted/etc. numbers.

Like others have said, I don't see what the big deal is, regarding whether we're in a recession or not. If we are, we are, who cares? Either way, we're straddling the line, and so many folks are largely arguing over semantics, which is silly imo. The numbers are what matter, not some silly definition of "recession."

Message edited by: Dealguy123 on 2008-05-12 14:51:35 CDT
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SlimyTadpole said:nycll said:I'd rate the article very low, because a. it annouces that we are not in a recession, which is a fact not in dispute as far as I can tell,
Even according to CNN, 3/4 of those polled think we are in a recession:
The poll

That is because people are not well informed or just giving the right answer to the wrong question. Not that I like CNN's sensational stuff but should we blame the media that people are idiots?

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Dealguy123 said:Anyway, the point is, many folks define "recession" differently, that's largely what it boils down to. What this leads to is an argument on "how exactly do you define a recession," which is merely arguing over semantics.. something I don't care for. Stein is also on my list of "analysts to ignore," and his pure speculation that DC real estate will flatten and start rising again soon is pure folly (notice he uses ZERO arguments to support his case except for the "everyone needs somewhere to live" argument).I wholeheartedly agree that the question of whether we are in a recession is of largely academic rather than practical difference to most people.

What a lot of people appopriately take an issue with is the fact that newsreports' sensationalist headlines often lead people to jump to conclusions that are often inappropriate for their situation. This happens in both good times and in bad. As you correctly pointed out above, different parts of the county and different segments of the population do experience VERY different rates of growth, so tremendous job losses in Michigan or severe housing corrections in Las Vegas, for instance, absolutely do not mean that people living in NYC, for instance, need to be taking defensive steps. Yes, the economy is interconnected and there are always ripple effects everywhere, but what many of us are saying is that in many parts of the country and many housing segments there is very healthy growth and there are terrific buying opportunities.

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c'mon guys, we are not in a recession! there's no housing bubble either, bubbles are for bathtubs. gold is an industrial metal worth about $4 an oz. real inflation is at a controllable 2%. american consumers have not overextended themselves in debt, and neither has the government. the economic stimulus package will work, be patriotic and buy a harley davidson.

iraq war is peace!

american ignorance is strength!

debt is wealth!

Message edited by: mikedev10 on 2008-05-12 15:23:47 CDT
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