Pangloss: Data points, data points, come get your data points.

All results in, described in the QS below. My current task is to get my Chase and Citi realls through - preferably from personal->biz, but at least from old pers to new pers. Will update on my challenges and victories as I go within the thread.

About Pangloss1980:

HHI: ~$200k (Based almost entirely on my parents, who I still use as my permanent address. My own is much lower as a grad student)
Age: 28
Credit history: 13 years
FICO: 776
Available credit: $100k in cards
Current util: 0.5%

Queries below...

Oops, and almost forgot: Thanks, props, or "terrorist fist jabs" (whichever you prefer) to the many FWFers who have helped me out directly and indirectly by sharing their experiences: markkundinger, ahself, SecondCor521, hindustani, MikeR397, lappyhappy, lhendricks92... Shit, they started up the band. Thanks Jesus!

First, a summary of A0R 1.0:

All the same demographic info as above, except I only had one card at $13k at the start. Summarized usage stats:
Chase: $17.5k from $20k card (12 mo)
AM3X: $7k from $19k card (6 mo)
BoA: $7k from $19k card (6 mo)
Citi: $8k combined from two $5k cards (12 mo)
Discover: $6.5k from $8k card (12 mo)

So in all, about $46k from $105k available. (Other cards not used, including big lines from AM3X.) Big goof up in that all cards were personal, no business. Only adverse action was a $5k crap HSBC card being cancelled when I never used it; so in other words, none.

FICO before A0R 1.0: ~790 (I think from EX)
FICO after A0R 1.0: EQ 776, EX 787 (both myFIC0), TU 798 (TU's own scoring system)

A0R 1.0 score summary: trough was EQ 662, the month after all BT balances had finally reported. 20 points gained after 2 months payment, then another 20 after another 2 months, then a bizarre 20 point dip after all the 6 mo BTs were paid off, and (more or less) complete recovery 12 months after initiation of A0R 1.0.

[Edited to centralize information]

Aaaaand...

The question(s):

I'm obviously going to be doing business cards this time. But despite all my reading and chatting here at FWF, I'm not entirely clear on how to best approach this:
a) I saw one enterprising individual created his own LLC with AOR as its stated business, but my lawyer friends tell me I'm looking at several hundred (or $400) to get that done; also, it would only have been in business since, well, now, so I wouldn't expect great things from it before another round or two, no?
b) If I do the seemingly more popular route and just identify myself as a business, how much trouble could I get in if I really _haven't_ sold anything on eBay or Craigslist, but just say I've sold a modest amount? ($300?) I assume it's still worth doing the business card apps even for such a small number?
c) A friend has an honest LLC doing honest work with a reasonable cash flow. Are the tax consequences of hooking up to that LLC significant enough that I'm better off doing it on my own?

I know the questions are an awful combination of bland and difficult (especially part c), but any help would be greatly appreciated.

That's all for now, I'll update as I go.

Pangloss1980 said: Aaaaand...

The question(s):

...

I know the questions are an awful combination of bland and difficult (especially part c), but any help would be greatly appreciated.

That's all for now, I'll update as I go.

If you're just doing business cards for your own A0R, you can most likely be a sole proprietorship instead of an LLC. Check with the entity that regulates business in your state (in my state it is the Secretary of State) or check your state's laws. In my state the filing requirements and costs are nil if you do it right. You won't get some of the benefits of an LLC, but again, if they're for your own A0R you probably don't need those benefits.

2Cor521

Another question here:

Mike397's Citi disaster has me a little spooked - it's hard for me to understand how that AA came about (particularly the breadth of it, hitting family members and all), and a small, paranoid little voice has been asking "Are there issuers looking at FWF and trying to decipher who some of us are by the (quite specific) data we give in our posts? Or, will there be?" As a result, I haven't posted precisely accurate information about my existing lines; but someone just tell me I'm being overly paranoid and I'll get the right data up.

Pangloss1980 said: Another question here:

Mike397's Citi disaster has me a little spooked .... I haven't posted precisely accurate information about my existing lines; but someone just tell me I'm being overly paranoid and I'll get the right data up.paranoia is a relative term ... IMO, you are fine to keep some of your info private... if, however, accurate sage advice is desired from the likes of markkundinger, ahself, SecondCor521, hindustani, MikeR397, lappyhappy & lhendricks92, then please post "close to accurate info" so that FWF will get the jest of what your saying about your redundant 2.0 AOR.

Did I read correctly that your score has gone down from 793 to 776 at only 0.5% utilization? were the scores from the same bureau/service? curious....

Also while biz cards will be very good for you this round, I'd recommend adding USBank and RBS Peoples bank to your list.

Perhaps an online reallocation/consolidation of those AMEX cards wouldn't hurt either as window dressing your bureau with a single 36000 limit card might net you a better limit from those competing to match AMEX's line (make sense?)... (on second thought maybe your IN: cards are already being merged with your BLUE as a result of the IN: card program retirement)

Have you soft CLI'd BOA? and AMEX too?

jackcrawfish said: Did I read correctly that your score has gone down from 793 to 776 at only 0.5% utilization? were the scores from the same bureau/service? curious....

Yes, both reports are from myFICO, reporting on my Equifax report. I haven't checked Experian because a) it costs $15 and b) I'm scared. The utilization during the BT period was 45%, but that's been paid off for a while; I guess I'm just being hit by the % of my credit that's new and scary? (I don't have any loans of any other variety.)


jackcrawfish said: Also while biz cards will be very good for you this round, I'd recommend adding USBank and RBS Peoples bank to your list.

Perhaps an online reallocation/consolidation of those AMEX cards wouldn't hurt either as window dressing your bureau with a single 36000 limit card might net you a better limit from those competing to match AMEX's line (make sense?)... (on second thought maybe your IN: cards are already being merged with your BLUE as a result of the IN: card program retirement)

Have you soft CLI'd BOA? and AMEX too?]

Several great suggestions here, thanks! My AM3X CLIs send me to an income form, which is problematic for me as HHI is where I look good, not individual income. BoA auto-CLIs me every month or so because... I don't know why.

But consolidating AM3X to look pretty: 1) All newcomers, this is why you keep reading, because I've been around here over a year and hadn't thought of that; 2) I know I've seen some people having fun with large AM3X lines, but isn't $25k some kind of magic # for them where they suddenly start getting (more) nervous about you? Since it seems there are no sweet AM3X BT deals to be had anymore (?) I'm hoping to keep my CL with them intact just to offset heavier utilization from more productive issuers. Thoughts?

Also, thanks for the card suggestions! I'm going to put up my tentative list soon, very appreciative of any and all suggestions. Except Pulaski. I don't have a first-born yet, and even when I do, they're not getting it, and that seems to be what they need to issue a card. Maybe they can split a half with AM3X when they come for me with a financial review, Solomon-style.

Pangloss1980 said: But consolidating AM3X to look pretty: 1) All newcomers, this is why you keep reading, because I've been around here over a year and hadn't thought of that; 2) I know I've seen some people having fun with large AM3X lines, but isn't $25k some kind of magic # for them where they suddenly start getting (more) nervous about you? Since it seems there are no sweet AM3X BT deals to be had anymore (?) I'm hoping to keep my CL with them intact just to offset heavier utilization from more productive issuers. Thoughts?

Like you, I rely on my AM3X cards to help with utilization.

Perhaps you could just reallocate between them vs. consolidate. As I assume you're aware, AM3X is discontinuing those IN cards and converting them to Blue cards in November. My wife got a letter on this as well for her IN:NYC card.

Maybe you could pre-empt the automatic conversion, so that you don't end up with three Blue cards, and ask them to reallocate across two, i.e. your current Blue and a new one, or a new non-Blue card. Just make sure they can/will do this without a hard pull. Since they're converting the cards anyway, I assume they can.

BTW, I think the $25k magic number primarily comes into play if you do other things to draw their attention, i.e. a large BT, unusually large charges, hitting the CLI button several times, etc. If you're a good customer and don't set off any other flags, I imagine you'll be okay.

Wells Fargo is my primary bank, and they have a lot of my money. Now I want theirs. Do I go for two cards?Just one per e-correspondence with Wells (ymmv)

OP said: I'm following jackcrawfish here; since his thread may be the new standard in FWF A0R threads, and is the source for all this nifty formatting and awesome info.I'm humbled. Thank you.

The real props go to those already mentioned... They've seen the datapoints which benefit all of us...

Official solicitation for feedback:

I think I've done my reading, now (though I'm sure I'll get posted at least one link showing not quite enough of it), and I'm in the final planning stage - I'm ready to fire this off whenever, but was inclined to do it next Tuesday morn, a la the former CW here about processing, etc. (If that CW has changed, I may even go tomorrow? Advice?)

Summary, also in the quick summary:
I've decided to err on the side of not setting off red flags by applying for too many cards from the same issuer in the same category (i.e. biz, personal). That means (in all cases except the Chase and Citi, inquired about below), that there's only one card per issuer per category.
Important questions before finalizing the list:
1) Is that idea stupid? (Even in the current credit-crunch climate?)
2)I'm hoping to reallocate two personal Citi lines to a single new Citi card - I know Chase doesn't allow this, but are other issuers so touchy?
3)The second Chase biz card is only there because it seems like the FUSA one might be evaluated separately? (What's the relationship with Chase there?) If so, then I'll include the card, but if not then I think I'll likely eliminate it.
4)I'm strongly considering eliminating the second BoA (C2) because of Jack's insta-reject. My only reason for keeping it was if I needed a BoA clearinghouse card to BT to, but with no AM3X cards in the mix I'm wondering if that role is necessary. Will any of the issuers above not let me write a check to myself? (Unfamiliar with WF, Barclay's, and Advanta.)
5)Are any cards/issuer on my ignore list that shouldn't be? (See quick summary)
6)Finally: With such a small # of cards applied for, is app order as important? I know we have an interesting data point about insta-rejects after the first 6 EX hits, but am I going to hit that many? (Note that my EX record is clean of inquiries at the moment save one.) In any case, my app order is largely along the lines posted above, where I apply for top personal, then top biz, then 2nd personal, etc. Any card deserving of bump up or down the list?

Important thing to keep in mind here: I can't justify the lines I'm asking for with my own income; I'm riding off of my parents (demos in OP), and my "business" is small dollar eBay sales. So 2Cor I am not, if that affects the advice, as I imagine it does.

If it were me, I would consolidate your existing Chase cards into the 12-year-old card first, and consolidate all your AMEX into the blue. Maybe even let those report. Then fire.

If I may abuse y'alls wisdom for one more query (I've posted this in the biz-card thread because it seems like the answer is important and should be centrally located, but I also don't have the patience to wait to see if someone still reads that thread so I'll simulpost here and put any wisdom into that thread):

I (like most everyone) have done small "business" transactions for years, primarily via undocumented methods - so, more trips to the used bookstore/record shop, or throwing down shingles on a friend's roof, rather than a nice little 3Bay store or a more typical business. Technically, the "business" of Pangloss1980 has been operating since 1992 (sole propietorships in my state require no registration), but obviously we here at Pangloss1980 Inc. have had unimpressive growth in revenue (what with the focus on actual, normal employment). So, what's a boy to do come A0R time for his biz-card applications? 16 years and $200/yr in revenue is completely honest, if hard to document; but it also seems possibly less appealing than saying that the business of "me" is newer, fresher, and has only done $400 in transactions in 12 months (and saying the biz has been open less time). I'm definitely applying for biz credit (thanks to the many of you FWFers who have illustrated that yes, the dream can be mine too), but I'm just wondering what you all think the most attractive app would look like.

An addendum to that central question might be: As I have many, many quasi-fungible items (stamps, coins, books, cds, DVDs, instruments, athletic equiptment, redundant body organs), should I just go on a brief selling spree and give myself some decent #s? ("Decent"=$2k) Do I need to do 3Bay, or are personal checks from friends sufficient? (I'm not planning on getting FRed, but...)

On that note, I guess I'm a bit surprised I haven't seen discussion of some less... scrupulous FWFers getting checks (for FR purposes) from their friends for objects that may or may not remain in the possession of the payee.

I guess I'd press the question for two reasons:

1) Credit conditions are tightening, so I certainly can't expect the results gained even a few months ago by others with comparable information provided to issuers

2) Biz credit, given that it doesn't report _and_ that I'm applying for the fatty cards for the first time, is easily the most important variable in all of this - far, far more can likely be gained by improving my business profile than by any of the other things I've been fiddling with, like finding the best card, the order to apply for them, consolidating lines, etc.

Also, I think the question is probably one faced by a very significant portion of FWers - we don't have a real business, but we've always gathered some cash on the side. Hell, just selling your textbooks back nets you a decent bit of coin.

So, I guess I'll lay out the variables, and maybe some of you will find it easy to answer quickly then?

Variable 1:
A) Report 6 years in biz (I've obviously been selling stuff for longer, but I'm 28 and don't want them scratching their heads and saying "He started up when he was 12?")
B) Report 1 year in biz (Now I look like a start-up, so maybe look better for growth potential?)

Variable 2:
A) Report $200 in revenue last year - stuff I've already sold, though through undocumented methods (used book store, etc.)
B) Report $1.2k in revenue last year - stuff sold plus A0R profits
C) Report $45k in revenue last year - I did cash all those A0R checks for that much, so technically my A0R one-man-show pulled in a very decent revenue stream, even if the income off of that was much less

Variable 3: (Presumably only important if choosing 2a or 2b)
A) Get a check from a few friends for $2k worth of items that I could "sell" for the purpose of having documented income. I don't feel bad about this because I have been selling stuff, just never thought to keep the receipts!
B) Don't bother.

Right now I'm torn between {1B 2B 3A} and {1B 2C 3B}. Any thoughts?

2B but I'm biased as this effectively is what I used.

Thanks to all for their input and advice! Trigger gets pulled tomorrow, 10:00 AM Eastern.

How issuers will see me tomorrow:

Inquiries: 2 (Target card in January; Bank account inquiry in May)
New Accounts: 1 (Target card in January)
Age: 28
HHI: 200k (conservative here - my actual HHI approaches 300k, but I don't want to weird them out)
Business: Sole propietorship, 12 mo in operation, $1.2k in revenue (thanks for the input on deciding how to present this)
Current FICO scores: depends on bureau, but between 776 and 798.
Current outstanding credit: $100k in cards
Current outstand debt: $500 on daily spender

Card app order, unless last minute suggestions of revision:

Candidate New Lines

                                                Expected/Actual   
Card ID  Issuer  Card Name     Period  BT Fee   Bureau Pull      
C1     BoA       PlatPlus      12      0        EX/?       Really hoping for this one - already have a decent line                              
                                                           with them, and would love to shift it to a 12 mo card      
C9     Advanta   Plat Biz      15      90        EQ/? 
C3     Chase     Plat MCard    12      75       EQ/?       Chase also important to me, with a $20k line already there.
C4     Citi      Ass. Bank     12      0        EQ/?       Discussion   If I do a Citi Biz card, can I only do one personal?
C10    Citi      CitiBiz       12      0         EQ 
C12    Chase     Chase Biz     15      99        EQ   
C5     Wells F.  Vis Plat.     9       0        ?/?        
C11    Barclay's BankAtlantic  15      75        TU/?  
C6     Barclay's IFLY          12      50       TU/?       Barclay's is new territory for me...
C7     USBank    Linux         12      0        EQ/?       Ditto USBank
C8     Discover  More ?        12      75       TU or EX?  Discover has been left off some prominent recent AORs, but
                                                           I haven't seen an explanation.
C2     BoA       Pet Rewards   6       0        EX/?       A second BoA card to use as a clearing-house for my       
                                                           other cards?  Reasonable?
C13    Chase     Chase Cash    12      99        EQ  
C14    Discover  Disc Biz      6       75        ?

Yikes.

Just had to talk with a BoA rep - I was just trying to see what the app status was, but got transferred to a ninja. Had to answer more questions than I wanted to (particularly because my demographic information is less impressive the more you know), and ended up getting a smaller new line than I thought my profile deserved - $7500 - but fortunately BoA is still golden for easy consolidation, so I added my old line to it and made it a $27k line. Since the card has 12mo and $0 fee I'm still fairly pleased, even if I did have visions of a 40k card (after consolidation) dancing in my head. Unless I hear otherwise, I'm going to hope they don't get itchy and use 89% of this sucker ASAP.

Moral: Don't call if your demographic information isn't as pretty as it looks on paper - more detailed questions when you're talking to a person rather than filling out a standard app. Just let your app run through as it will.

[Edit: changed "paper app" to "standard app," meaning the normal on-line dealie, because that's what I meant.]

Update on Wells Fargo:

I think these guys are showing themselves to be not worthwhile for anyone. Summary of me vis-a-vis this issuer, and my conversation with their ninja - who, to be fair, doesn't quite measure up to the name... more like the black knight in Monty Python, trying to seem competent when in fact he had no legs or arms.

Me and WF:
PMA (high-end) customer with them, because of my high balances in accounts with them ($45k in brokerage, and a checking and savings account that recieve direct deposits from various employers). Been with them 4 years or so, always been a golden customer.

Application: Thought I followed my link for a 9mo 0%; when approved it was for 6mo 0%, with $4000 limit instantly given.

Following phone-call: I call their Dark Knight, who spends 20 minutes trying to figure out what I had just applied for ("Mortgage? Uh, no... Unless you want to lend me $300k for 30 yrs at 0%?"). Finally incorrectly identifies the offer I applied for as 6mo, says I should mail in the terms I thought I had applied for. On the comical CL, says "We take everything into account, and give the highest possible CL based on all the information we gather [I applied to them rather early in the process, so they shouldn't have been seeing any more than 4 inquiries]; you can use the card for 9 months [minimum] and then ask for a CLI, and also take this pineapple and stick it up your ass." I'm paraphrasing, but at the end of the day I just don't know if these guys are productive to consider for applications. The fee is $0 for first 30 days, so I guess I'll BT $3k just so I'm actually using it and maybe they'll give me a real offer for 3.0; but given that it seems there may be a premium these days on minimizing inquiries, I think WF can be added to the "ignore" list, no matter what your relationships is with them.

Pangloss1980 said: I was rejected immediately due to freeze on my EX... go for it if you don't mind the added EX inquiry... from the sounds of it though (demographic concern), you may be better to let the dog lie...

Hmmm, shoot, didn't know that. I've already chatted with the ninja once today - is anyone able to tell me about Barclay's, Advanta, and USBank in terms of getting BT money into your checking? That is, do I need a BoA card as a clearinghouse for them?

I've forgotten what the rule of thumb is on using BoA as a clearinghouse multiple times in same month, and now am getting itchy now before the end of the day...

Re-answering half of my own question:
Citi, Chase, Advanta and Discover all write a check to bank (is the plan). Barclay's may with the personal card but not business? USBank most likely does not (a bit unclear). The question that still hangs, then, is whether I can use the clearinghouse BoA card twice in one billing cycle without pissing them off?

US Bank will send a check to any bank and account you want - just give them the bank name, address, and account number. I just received my $10k BT from them in my FNBO savings today (applied 2 weeks ago, the $10k balance showed up on the CC last week).

I'd go for the BoA biz. They'll most likely come through with capped-fee checks in a few weeks.

ETA: If they're uncapped, you can always call and negotiate, asking for no-fee. Sometimes it works.

Sincere apologies for having failed to update this thread: a more comprehensive and up-to-date detail of progress thus far is forthcoming after a few deadlines. I'm hoping to poke at the FW wisdom tree one more time with a brief question:

Citi's AssBank checks still haven't arrived, and all they can tell me is that the request was "processed" on Sept. 5th. I've now used my other cards to the extent that my FICO is barely hanging above 700, and don't want to ask Citi for a specific check written out to me (curiously when I did this with CitiBiz I got both the specific check and blank checks about 10 days ago, at the same time) just in case they feel like soft-pulling on me and I get some tasty bits of AA. So do I taunt BoA by paying off that card before it closes in 5 days and then BT it to my checking again immediately after closing?