My third stuff-o-rama: the quest for buckets

Well, thanks to all the great minds here at FWF, I've managed to accomplish two AOR's. They're documented in two painfully long threads:

stuff-o-rama 1
stuff-o-rama 2

This one is going to be a tiny bit different, because the last one hasn't really ended "cleanly", and the new one isn't going to start very "neatly", either...

Profile
Reported HHI: $108000
Reported salary (for those that ask): $57000
AXP Reported HHI: $69800
Business type: Sole-prop
Reported business revenue: $10000
Starting TrueCredit scores: TU 790 EX 770 EQ 790
Inquiries: TU 0 EX 18 EQ 3 (all inqs at least a year old)

Starting Credit Situation (09/06/08)

Personal

Bank       Card          Age     Limit      Balance
AMEX       Hilton        2006   $32000      $0
Barclays   I Fly	 2007	 $7500      $0
BofA       generic       2007    $2000      $0
BofA       NY Jets       2006     $800      $0
BofA/FIA   Schwab        2005   $32100      $0
Bofa/FIA   Fidelity      2006    $4000NPSL  $0
CapOne     Plat Prestige 2007    $2000      $0
Chase      Cash Plus     2005     $500      $0
Chase      Cash Plus     1994    $1700      $30
Citibank   mtvU          2006   $12000      $158
Citibank   Professional  2007    $1000      $0
Citibank   PremierPass   2007    $3000NPSL  $0
Discover   Miles         2007   $20800      $0
Discover   More          1995    $4750      $0
HSBC       GM Flexcard   2006    $2000      $0
USAA       generic       2006   $26000      $0
USBank	   generic       2007   $10000      $4899
USB/Elan   Woodforest    2007    $8000      $0
Wamoo      generic       2007     $250      $0
Citibank   LOC		 2006     $500      $0
USBank     LOC           2008    $2500      $0
Total:                         $170400      $5087

Bank       Card          Age    Limit       Balance
AMEX       SimplyCash    2007    $1000      $50
Barclays   BankAtlantic  2007   $15400      $12100
Bofa       generic       2007    $8000      $0
Citibank   Citibiz TYP   2007   $51400      $39
Chase      Cash Rewards  2007   $38200      $0
Total:                         $114000      $12189

So, I'm still carrying about $17k of 0% debt going into this thing. The cards will be paid in Sep/Oct.

Cash Situation: I also have about $25k in cash and muni bonds in two "orama accounts" at Fidelity and TD Ameritrade. Some of this money is earmarked to pay off cards, and some will be used to buy lots of taffy.

So, what the heck am I trying to accomplish this time around?

Goals:
1) Extract as much as possible through promotional incentives.
2) Get additional credit from major lenders by mining untapped "credit buckets". This might best be called a "bucket-o-rama".
3) Avoid unnecessary adverse action.
4) Avoid dealing with space monkeys (HSBC, Wamoo, Advanta, etc).
5) Get a whole mess of 0% money.
6) Maybe, just maybe, try a more advanced 0% investment strategy.
7) ???
8) Profit!

I predict this will be more conservative than my previous orama. That's because: lenders seem more skittish, I think I'm already at "max exposure" with many of the major lenders, there are fewer appealing 0% deals, and available earnings on risk-free deposits are lower than they were last year. I just don't think this one is going to achieve the same large scale of indebteness as my previous one, which is kind of disappointing.

Strategy (pre):
1) Pay off most 0% cards
2) Reallocate credit to create largest visible personal lines possible
3) Pay regular spenders to zero or credit balance
4) Dispute a couple of bogus inquiries off Equifax (via phone)
5) Open promo Wamoo money market account which currently has 4% APY, and may keep unusually high rates over next 12 months due to a "rate bonus".
6) Resubscribe to TC using $9.95 promo

Strategy (during):
1) Apply for the Citibank CashReturns card while the sweet 5% promo is available.
2) Apply for additional citibank personal card to get additional credit limit.
3) Apply for Chase business card with 0% deal just to get some cash liquidity.
4) Wait 3 months, try to manufacture as much spending as possible with CashReturns, otherwise keeping a low profile.
5) Once over, embark on more conventional AOR.
6) Attempt fewer apps, emphasizing bigger bang for buck.
7) Favor "love em and leave em" business credit cards over personal, in order to reduce flotsam and jetsam of new accounts on presonal credit report.

Followup replies will list activities as they happen. Quick Summary will keep a rolling tally of "stuff". As usual, advice and scathing criticism are welcome.

Well, I was all set to start my apps about five days from now. However, the last working link to the supercool CashReturns card began to fail on friday, so I needed to jumpstart a (slighltly) hasty application spree:

First Batch of Apps

Date      Bank       Card              CRA          Result
09/06/08  Citibank   Associated        EX           deferred, approved 9/8 $15000
09/06/08  Citibank   CashReturns       EX           insta-approved $4800
09/07/08  Chase      Biz Rebate 15mo   EX           deferred
09/09/08  Chase      Biz Marriott      EX           deferred

I applied for the Associated Bank card first, in the perverse hope that I would get approved for it with a large limit, then approved for the Cashreturns with a nominal $500 limit, thus getting a courtesy call from a super-powerful activations rep who could hopefully consolidate a bunch of other Citibank credit lines. Instead, I was deferred on the Associated, but insta-approved on the CashReturns. Go figure. I was disappointed that Citibank pulled Experian instead of TU, since my TU report was a bit cleaner looking, and because Experian is the bane of my existence. These apps were on Saturday.

After these two apps, EX's FAKO score changed from 770 to 766.

Then on Sunday I apprlied for the Chase Business Rebate card with the 15 month 0% promo. Hopefully I will be approved and be able to reallocate a ton of Chase credit to the new card. I also happen to like getting 3% back from home improvement stores.

After this app, EX's FAKO changed from 766 to 764.

On Monday I gave BofA/FIA a call, and reallocated a bunch of credit from my Schawab card to my Fidelity card, making a $35.1k card with ex-MBNA billpay to support CashReturns spending. I also plan to jack this card up to a very high "high balance" in order to (potentially) make that look better on my credit report, since credit limit is not reported. However, I forgot that FIA would very quickly report the dropped credit limit.

After FIA reported a Schwab card with a $1k limit, my EX FAKO changed from 764 to 761.

On Monday evening, I got an email informing me of my Cashreturns app, and then a request to call a number to "discuss my credit needs". I was transferred to a low-end phone chimp who offered me a CitiProfessional card (10k TY points after $250 spending, 0% transfer offer with no fee). Normally I'd jump on this in a heartbeat. However, he couldn't give me any inkling of what the credit limit might be (remember, I already have a Citipro card), and he wasn't sure what a hard inquiry was, but he thought there would be one on the app. I decided that the risk of getting a chump credit line didn't fare well against my need to keep inquiries and new accounts and debt low in the face of possible Cashreturns exploitation adverse action, and I declined the offer. However, I still have number and I could possibly call them back to take them up on it if I change my mind.

Also on Monday evening, I gave Citibank a call from the check my status page. I was transferred to a rep. He said he needed some more information for my Associated card. He then asked "do you own or rent?" I answered, he said "okay, please wait a moment", then told me that I was approved for the card with a $15k limit. So despite my own advice to just relax and take the news as it comes, calling may have sped up their underwriting decision by a couple of days.

On Tuesday, I applied for the Biz Marriott card. The main reason is just to hopefully get some more credit limit to reallocate to the 0% card. But the extra 20k MR points shouldn't hurt.

Note that both of the Chase cards are business cards, and aren't showing up on my credit report, so when I inevitably end up closing them in the future, it will be like they never existed..

On a not-particularly-related note, I also called up Wells Fargo's credit deparment (800-967-9521, thanks to jackcrawfish). Asked to reopen a $10k line closed a few months ago as partial AA and partial inactivity). They said they couldn't reopen anything older than 120 days old.

Citi and BOA refused to pull anything else for me except for EXP, chase was the only one who tried to pull TU after EXP was frozen.

markkundinger said: 1) Apply for the Citibank CashReturns card while the sweet 5% promo is available.
Maybe you know something the rest of us don't, but the final 5% promo link died last week.
[Edit] Sorry - I didn't read far enough to see you got in on it in time.

So, what the heck am I trying to accomplish this time around?You might as well rename this thread the "CASH-Returns-O-Rama.. Do More with Less"...I think I'm already at "max exposure" with many of the major lenders...I ran into walls too. Right where I expected more credit, they would shift existing credit to approve new (Barclay's, BOA)....I just don't think this one is going to achieve the same large scale of indebteness as my previous one, which is kind of disappointing... 4) Dispute a couple of bogus inquiries off Equifax (via phone)Is this using Win333 method of "I have no problem disputing FIA and CBSD on my report" ?Wait 3 months, try to manufacture as much spending as possible with CashReturns, otherwise keeping a low profile.the 3 month thing is why I recommend the title change.advice and scathing criticism are welcome.I'm anxious to find out your CASH Returns plans (i.e., fund Citi deposit account, fund BOA deposit account, purchase money from USMint, etc)

I'm curious about your business revenue. Do you have an actual business, or perhaps reporting money made on the previous AOR as business income? To the best of my knowledge investment income is not counted as business income by the IRS. I know it's unlikely anyone will ask for verification, but I'd just like to know your thought process on this. Thank you.

markkundinger said: No updates today (credit score, acceptances, etc)

clausCA said: Do you have an actual business, or perhaps reporting money made on the previous AOR as business income?
Nope, no actual business, was reporting AOR profit as "revenue". I might indeed get burned. The safe approach is of course to go with $0 or $100 of revenue, which often works.

I don't know all of the details of sole props, but I think all income is filed on personal tax forms anyway. I've toyed with going more legit, filing a local business license, etc. But I haven't worked out the details. I wouldn't know how to file the description of "Professional Credit Card Investment Management Company".

Does collecting referral bonuses by pointing friends (met on the internet of course) towards lucrative bank sign-up deals count as a sales business?

BofA's usual account funding max is $1000 for checking, $100 for savings. I'm keeping my cashreturns plans close to the vest for 3 reasons: a) I'm not 100% that I really got in in time for the 5% promo period, b) I don't know what tactics, if any, will work, and c) the fatwallet effect has been killing deals before I even get a chance to apply for them. Sorry.

To revise earlier, it turns out that Chase (who is still reporting "reviewing the app" over the automated line) didn't do another hard pull for my Biz MarriottRewards app.

markkundinger said: BofA's usual account funding max is $1000 for checking, $100 for savings.That's what I was afraid of. Not worth it for the 50. Thanks!

Makes sense. My Chase Sony and Chase Amazon personal cards have seen A/A in terms of shrinking credit lines. On the Chase biz side, only my sole proprietorship has had CL decreases. I only have one other legit business (coffee shop, btw) and its Chase lines seem to have been spared. So just to clear my name I only have two entities, a sole prop for which I actually had consulting income last year, and a S-Corp, again which is a real company. I closed and merged the Sole Prop Chase lines into the S-Corp Chase lines. So I'm tempted to re-apply for those as well as the other Chase biz cards which you've brought up and that I've missed in the past.

Noooo! They be stealin mah bucket!!

Let's cut to the chase: I'm getting too old for this sh**.

I return home from a business trip, my mail is on hold, and I can't go to the post office until I pay the car mechanic an exhorbitant bill (just over $3000... this is why you don't buy German). The biggest insult to the bill? I didn't even have my CashReturns card yet!

Anyway, I go through the stack of mail, and there are two big results.

Chase denied me. The letter dates 9/9 cited Experian and included the following reasons:
- You already ahve the maximum amount of credit we can offer you
- Insufficient history of credit information is reported
- Too many requests for new credit in last 12 months

I only got one denial. I called the number on the letter, got routed to a CSR, cited the reference number, she said "I see that as still pending", she transfered me to the applications depmartment, who proved to be worthless as they can only take new apps, nothing else. I checked the status topic (thanks again FWF!) and called the "business live rep" number, 800-453-9719. Was immediately transfered talking to someone in "lending operations", which meant it was a credit ninja. I asked about the denial (she confirmed that BOTH cards were denied), asked about the idea of getting the new cards "due to the improved rewards programs". But here's how the conversation went:

"So, I see you recently paid off your existing year-old business card with a balance transfer"
"Yes"
"What was the source of the balance transfer?"
"A brokerage account, I was waiting for a CD to mature."
"... and what was the source of funds for the CD?"
"What?"
"Did you buy the CD with the advance from the card?"
*stammer* "I used the advance to pay off some other cards, and had some funds left over, which I put into the CD"
"Okay."

At some point she also did a soft inquiry. Anyway, I then asked if it would be possible to cannibilize the existing card for the new ones. She said sure, recommended splitting the CL between the two new cards (no net increase). I should get paperwork in a week or two.

I also asked that since I was apparantly bumping into a max credit limit, if it would be useful to provide documentation of income or assets. She didn't answer yes or no, but she did mention that one thing she looks at is inconsistencies in the credit report with information from the app. For instance, in my case I reported a fairly high HHI, but not mortgage on file. Her explanation then made things less clear, so I'm not sure if a lack of a mortgage would be less consistent, or a large mortgage would be inconsistent. Something to ponder for later.

Anyway, the Chase ninjas have seen through my elaborate ruse. I guess that's why they're ninjas.

Got both of my citibank cards. Called and activated CashReturns, got the sales pitch for insurance and credit reports and picture frames and puppy chow and god knows what else. Found out I just barely squeaked in with the 5% promo thingy.

Called number on back of the card to start working on reallocating credit. I figured I'd start with the "easier" to reallocate credit first, about $10k from my mtvU card, and maybe consolidate the older Citiprofessional and PremierPass cards .First answerer was an offshore rep, who put me on hold for a LONG time, then came back and said no reallocation could be done because mtvU and cashreturns were different "brands". Realizing I was dealing with a chucklehead, I hung up and tried again. Got a super-friendly onshore rep, who put me on hold for a LONG time, told me Citiprofessional was nonconsolidatable (expected), and put in requests for the other two cards. We'll see how that goes.

I would, however, like to start the Citibank reallocation space monkey scoreboard:

Immediate denials (clueless) - 1
Immediate denials (clueful) - 0
Unsuccessful requests - ?
Successful requests - ?

While talking to a CSR, I also asked that a "note" be put on my account that I was going to be making a large purchase. When I later attempted the large purcahse ($4600 out of $4800 limit), it was denied. Log into citicards and see the red warning message to call customer service. Call and get immeidately routed to fraud. Verify lots and lots of information with fraud, who clears (or sets?) the "behavior flag". Retry transaction. It clears. Yay.

TC scores are TU 794 EX 761 EQ 790. The TU score went up 4 points a few days ago. no idea why. None of the accounts reporting yet.

DavidScubadiver said: Anybody ever wonder about the risk of being black-balled by the banks? Lets just say there were a "list" created of unprofitable customers, and more likely, a list of customers with balances over $100,000 but actual purchases of less than $10,000 a year, and that list were made available to all banks to check against before issuing credit ... what impact would that have on you if you were on such a list?

I too have wondered about this risk (though usually figured just individual banks would blacklist you as a "demon customer.") Might be smart to play nicer with the issuer you most want to do business with long-term.

One potential mitigating factor is that most of us probably spend tens of thousands per year on cards, especially on our rewards cards. But is that enough to make us marginally profitable or at least not terribly unprofitable?

It's important to "give back" a little to each issuer, I believe. That is, rather than playing the perfect Blackjack that makes the casino label you a card counter, lose a hand or three every now and again to seem like less of a sharpie.

markkundinger said: Let your FIA Fidelity Visa, which had $0 balance last month, report with a $32.7k balance this monthy. Note that this was intentional, since the Fidelity is a NPSL card, I wanted to spike it with a really high balance. Since the credit limit never shows on credit reports, I wanted to reset the "high credit" to a higher level. Does it help the credit score long term? No idea.

My Fido card reports the largest mid-cycle balance, not the largest balance at statement close.

Mark,

Citi may just need income or asset documentation before they do the CLI.

When I did a CLI recently on my CashReturns via phone with a CSR, I saw online that they only bumped it up by a few hundred dollars and thought that was all I would get. A few days later I got a letter asking me to sent income or asset documentation in order to be considered for the CLI. By then, I had already consolidated other cards to the CashReturns, so I didn't send the docs, but if I had known, I would have faxed them in.

very interesting information worth bookmarking (or at least adding link in a future AOR spreadsheet).

Perhaps a post would here be a good idea too.

I paid down the temporarily spiked $32k on my NPSL FIA card. I then reallocated the credit back to my other FIA card. So I went from an apparent $32k/$32k and $0/$1k util situation, to $0/$35k and $0/$32k. And since this is FIA/BofA, they reported the new limits, high balances, and balances to the bureaus right away.
Experian score (only to report so far) jumped from 707 to 751.
Is it just me?
You PAID off $32K - here is your spike of 44 points!

I have been very bad about updates. Partly because not a lot has been going on, but mainly because I am a very lazy person.

Here's updates from the last couple of months, in no particular order.

- After many many attempts, I was able to get a hold of a CSR who could consolidate my Associated Bank card with my CashReturns card. He actually made this change instantly, it was bafflingly easy. If possible, try to get the reps in rural North Carolina. Based on my sample size of 1, they're the best. That made the CL on the Cashreturns card $31k, which made spending as much as possible easier.

- The three-month promotional 5% cash period that I just barely qualified for on the Cashreturns card ended. I managed to push a ton of spending through the card, reaping a couple grand in cashreturn dollars. It was probably more than I could have made with a conventional AOR during that timeframe.

- Remember BankAtlantic card that I paid off a couple days after the statement and thought I was going to pay some interest on? Nope, no interest incurred. Either they're friendlier than I thought, or I erred on the too soon side in paying it off.

- I waited a month or two after paying off the BankAtlantic card, and called Barclays credit department (866-408-4064). Asked to consolidate the BankAtlantic with my personal I Fly card. The CSR said she couldn't "see" the BA card on her system, asked me if it was paid off, and said she'd have to refer it to her supervisor, and to check back in a couple of days. A couple of days later, I log in and see that the I Fly card has a shiny new $22.5k credit limit.

- I asked Discover about consolidating my two unused cards together. The CSR said it would require a hard pull AND phrased the transaction as first closing the first card, then applying for an increase on the second one. I didn't like the unsureness sounding nature of that, and passed. I'm sure there's a better way to go about this, but I don't know what it is.

- As reported on FWF, Trucredit stopped offering daily pulls of credit reports. Jerks. I canceled immediately. My last scores were dated 12/20, and were TU 762, EX 751 and EQ 782. The Wamu pfico for December was 743.

- My credit report could use a little TLC. Transunion resuscitated a bunch of old inquiries (dropping my TU score a few points to 754), Experian has been hammered with inquiries (many due to dumb things like bank account openings and a new apartment and cable service). Plus, I've got a few card consolidation opportunities, and need to put some activity on old cards to keep them alive.

- Speaking of old cards, I had a couple closed. Wamu closed my unused card with the $250 CL. It was due to a combination of inacitivy and negative information on my credit report (utilization and new accounts). Also, HSBC dropped the CL on my unused GM flexcard from $2000 to $300, citing only inactivity (this seems to have happened to others too). The Wamu card was only useful for monthly FICO scores, and the HSBC card was totally non-useful, so I'm not too broken up about it. The nice thing is that both lenders were space monkeys to me.

- I noticed BofA closed a NEA money market that has been inactive for a year or so. Interesting.

- Deposit rates remain depressingly low. Several months ago I had opened a Wamu money market account during a promo to get about 1.1% bonus over the standard APY. However, the macro economy and Chase have conspired to make their standard APY so low that even with the bonus it's pretty weak. The account has a $25k minimum balance, so I'm debating if I should close it or cling on in the hopes that deposit rates increase in the next few months. The WTDirect account, which had been opened just for the bonus, is ironically maintaining a competitive 3.5% for the month of Decemer to keep early adopters such as myself from fleeing the account. Go figure.

- I don't really have any additional AOR plans at the moment. I'm not really sure what I want to do, although I'm considering applying for one of the new Schwab or Fidelity 2% cards.

markkundinger said: If possible, try to get the reps in rural North Carolina. Based on my sample size of 1, they're the best.

apologies for an OT nitpick. The citi call center is in Greensboro, a metro of over a million people , its not rural at all.

Now that I have gotten that out of my system, thanks for the update!

did you see the post regarding WAMU to CHASE consolidation feasibility?

Your $250 line with WAMU is HUGE... move it to a CHASE card containing a sweet BT offer...

any other updates you might have?