Moonbutt's "tabula rasa" AOR 1.0: A little Juniper AA

Greetings all, and welcome to Moonbutt's r00kie AOR 1.0. I've been picking through AOR threads and others here on Fatwallet (and I'm still doing that), and I think I'm at the point where it's time to put a tentative plan down (such as it is) for the veterans here to comment.

My credit is good, with just one 13 month old EQ inquiry (hence "tabula rasa" -- clean slate), so I'm looking to get a sense of how much I can bite off with my first AOR.

GOALS

1. Move current debt to new 0% carrier. I may move the car loan over to save the interest. This is the top priority. Will try to put this into a business card.
2. Have enough BT left over after #1 for some arbitrage. I look at anything here as gravy, though I should be able to manage some...
3. Setup for possible AOR 2.0 in one year...
4. NEW GOAL as of 11/01/08: to add at least one rewards card/spender not from AMEX. As I live in California, foreclosure central with unemployment at 7.7%, I'd like a backup to the TrueEarnings card.

TARGET LAUNCH DATE: Friday November 21.

THE DATA

             myFICO       FAKO          INQ
EX           749           789          0
EQ           744           781          1
TU           750           789          0

Issuer							Balance/limit	Age	notes

AMEX TrueEarnings Costco (main spender)			$0/$18000	3y1m	(since PIF) *
BOA Ducks Unlimited MC (backup spender)			$0/$10000	2y6m	(since PIF)  (09/25 CLI)
BOA "peppermint" plain old VISA  (GF's spender)		$0/$8000	8y6m	(since PIF) **
Chase Platinum VISA (debt carrier)			$7200/$9000	1y1m	(0% resets to 9.99% 01/01/09)

ISSUER				Purchase%	BT%	Term	BT Fee	Cap	Purpose
WAMU Real Rewards VISA  	0		8.99var	18	0%	n/a	carrier spender

ISSUER				Purchase%	BT%	Term	BT Fee	Cap	Purpose
Discover More			0		0	12	3%	?	free cam, rewards/spender, possible BT
Chase Disney Rewards		9.99		0	12mo	3%	$75	carrier BT #1
USBank Linux Visa		0		0	12	0	n/a	carrier BT #2
Citi Driver's Edge		0		0	12	0	n/a	rewards, then BT
BOA Platinum Plus MC		0		0	12	0	n/a	BT (if a third BOA account is OK)
Citi Associated Bank Visa 	0		0	12	0	n/a	carrier BT #3
Juniper I Fly		 	0		9.99%	12	3%	$50	carrier BT #4
Chase OptionsXPress		0		0	12	3%	$75	carrier BT #5

BIZNAS CARDS

Citi Business W/15kTYP		0	12	0	n/a	carrier BT #4
Bank Atlantic Biz		0	15	0	$75	carrier BT #5
Advanta Small Buziness MC	~8%	15	0	%90	BT (?)
Citi AT&T Universal BizVISA	~8%	15	0	%90	BT (?)

Advanta T&C says BT must be from business account.

NOTES:

1. "Carrier BT" means that the card is a candidate to carry my actual debt (as distinguished from "debt" incurred in arbitrage) as mentioned in Goal #1. Cards that have tighter BT conditions, such as fee-free BT's only with application, or BT to CC only (for the Chase), will be considered first for this.

QUESTIONS:

1. I expect that the high utilization on the Chase card is working against me. Is that worth postponing the AOR to fix, and if so, should the fix be a paydown out of cash, or a CLI increase?

2. Should I try for CLI elsewhere also? The "peppermint" VISA (that's just a reference to the card color BTW) has that 0% uncapped BT offer on it, so a sufficiently big CLI might make that card work for BT purposes right now without any new apps at all.

3. Should I chance moving the car loan into revolving 0% credit, or leave it alone? Payment is ~$460/mo.

4. Are there any advantages/disadvantages to "pre-approved" offers versus non-solicited apps? Based on what I've read so far, the answer is "no" unless it's WAMU.

5. How is BOA on reallocation, and # of cards? I have two BOA cards already, and they are also my regular bank.

6. I've not included any business cards yet, because there seem to be some reports of those apps requiring more detailed submissions (tax returns etc.) Recommendations for relatively trouble-free biz apps welcome. I expect that I should have no issues here, as I've been running a business for tax purposes for several years.... but I wanted to check first.

7. I see lots of references to HELOC's in conjunction with AOR's, but I don't own a home. I have, however, received offers in the past for personal LOC's. Should I look into one of those for BT's? (I'd not be surprised to find that they are harder to come by these days.)

Chase Platinum has a $75 BT fee.

Citi AMEX and Professional cards have 15k TYP bonus in addition to 0%/no fee BTs.

Major issuers (Chase, Citi, etc) typically require no more documentation for Biz accounts than for personal accounts.

With $160k income, the single $7600 Chase balance shouldn't matter. You *may* want to wait and get the other cards reporting zero balances (the number of accounts with balances counts, in addition to the balance itself. Having 100% of your cards with outstanding balances probably wont matter but its possible).

BofA reallocated limits extremely easily. Even if your $30k existing limits is the max they're willing to give you (unlikely w/$160k income, but possible), they'll let you transfer the existing limit to create the new account.

Chase doesnt require BTs to a credit card - they send a welcome check with each card that is valid for the BT terms. None on your current list are particularly "restrictive".

markkundinger said: a) I would not apply for ANY of the preapproved apps. Capless fees are the pits, and they're not compelling offers.

b) I think the debt is hurting your utilization. I'm also guessing you don'thave $7600 laying around to pay down the 0% card. I would overpay the other cards so they all report with $0 balance, and wait a statement cycle until they report, before doing apps

c) If you've really been filing as a small business, then go for the biz cards. Lots of people have had lots of success with even less real businesses.

Regarding the Chase card, I do have roughly $5k on hand right now, and I may be able to zero out all CC's by the 15th of October if it's worth doing. At a minimum, I can get the Chase Visa below 50% without any trouble. All the cards have closing dates having just passed, so I'd have to wait a month to pay them down to 0 for CRA purposes anyway.

Thanks for the note on biz cards, that's what I was hoping you guys would say . I'll start plugging in some biz card apps soon.

All of this prompts me to punt until the week before Halloween. I hope there's still a credit market by then

Glitch: thanks for the notes, especially the info on BOA. With some of the things I hear about them, I was wondering if I should skip them, preparatory to moving to another bank entirely I'll update the OP with the new info.

1. CLI's are always good. Here's a link to a thread on how to avoid hard pulls for CLI's. Whether you get a CLI or not, I would pay the card down to 49%.
2. Might as well. Refer to above link to avoid getting a hard pull.
3. If you're responsible enough to pay your bills on time, I would say yes. If you think there's a chance you might miss your due date, I'd say no.
4. AFAIK, the only advantage is you won't get denied. I could be wrong, though...they might find an excuse to deny a pre-approved offer
5. Reallocation is easy and AFAIK, they don't care how many cards you have with them.
6 & 7. not sure

I think someone's already mentioned it but Citi has some cards with 15k TYP bonuses, one of which is the Citi Platinum AMEX card. It's a really good daily spender. 5TYP for every $1 spent at a supermarket, gas station or drug store, and 3TYP for every $1 on ALL other purchases for the first 24 months. First year's annual fee ($125 now, i think) is waived. The card has a bunch of benefits, too.

One last thing; try paying off your balances before the statement close.

I had a weaker credit profile than you with basically identical scores and I had a fairly successful AOR. I'm sure you'll do fine. Good luck

If you're gonna do biz cards, Id suggest getting one for each personal CC company you have (Chase, Citi, USBank, etc.) so that you can try to reallocate CLs and hide your BT amounts. Also Advanta has 15 month 0% which is good, but CL is YMMV. Some have reported low CLs, others have gotten $10k+.

BOA has been known at times to open up a card and lower the CL on an existing line if you get too many. If you don't care, its fine since you can use the new card for BT money.

And yes, ask for CLI everywhere that won't cause a hard pull, as well as paying your high util % cards down to 49% would be best.

has anyone seen moon butt?

hi ap286, I've not gone anywhere... my next big update will probably be this weekend, when I plan to add some biz card apps. I also plan to see about CLI bumps on my BOA cards. After that, it will likely be quiet for a time until mid-October.

CLI question: The "peppermint" VISA had a CLI increase from $1200 to $5k in June or thereabouts. The CSR couldn't do it immediately, it had to be "reviewed by someone"... but it happened just fine within two days. Does it matter that it happened recently? Should I leave that card alone and look for CLI on the Ducks MC instead?

SonorityGenius: part of the reason I was looking to go sooner rather than later, apart from the uncertainty in the markets, is that my freelance gig wraps up in mid-November. If I do this before then, my HHI is as stated above with no fudging (and there's an employer to say "yes, he's our employee"). Ideally, I can park that debt on a new 0% offer and then the savings I hope to accrue over the next two months effectively becomes BT money. Less ideally, I don't find new work immediately, in which case those savings will tide me over the gap.

Fortunately, I've been working almost solid for the last year and a half across about six gigs... I just don't want to take it for granted that the gaps will stay that short. Sooner or later, the recession will find my industry.

And that one INQ is dated Oct '07, so it will be a year old by the new target date.

OK, I did a CLI from 7K to 10K on the BOA/Ducks MC, and was auto-approved. My first thought is, that was too easy... any guidance on how to guage headroom on those, before I try for more?

markkundinger said: I didn't fully understand your juggly tactic, but if you have the conservative approach of just... not juggling, that would be more foolproof.

The idea was that moving the Chase Visa balance to AMEX right before it reports would "hide" it there for the first two weeks of October, during which I'd launch my AOR. Nonetheless, I am indeed inclined to avoid "juggling" if there is risk there... not to mention the $99 cost of the BT.

Glitch99 said: Good luck getting it done in 3 days.....

The last I paid attention to it, AMEX reports the statement balance on the first day of the second month after the statement closes. So your statement closes Sept 17, that amount will be reported on/about Nov 1st. Some other issuers also report on the first of each month, but without hte extra month's lag.

You can always dispute the balances as being incorrect if you miss the regular reporting cycle. This is recommended, even if you think you got it timed right.

And yes, it can be a decent (although expensive) method of temporarily hiding a balance.

It sounds like it's not quite worth doing this time around, then, if the time is tight. I also have incurred an unforeseen $3.5K expense today that I have to handle via cash, so I'll be carrying the Chase balance through October, at least.

A quick peek via CreditSecure shows that the reported balance as of right now is the previous month's balance, only $1400. Per Glitch, the $3k balance shows up next Wednesday. So, I think I'll just stick to a late October target date, zero out everybody but the Chase, and then "hide" the Chase balance on the AMEX and do the AOR the week before Halloween.

Yep, I just saw that. Things are changing fast. I might have to just roll the dice early and see what happens.

I plan to go through all the offers this weekend and add some biz cards... that will give me some idea of the speed at which things are moving.

Someone in another AOR thread found a personal Chase card that still has the BT cap here. There's also a thread about the Chase BT offers here. Maybe someone will find a business one that is still active.

All righty, I've got all the cards except the Chase down to 0 balances, and they should all report by November 5th at the latest. I'm going to go over the offers again this weekend; the planned launch date is now November the 5th or later (right after the election ), and I'll be sticking to the original conservative approach.

There was a news item on the radio this morning about credit card offers getting more stingy; sure enough, the latest two pre--approved offers I got yesterday were worse than before -- a Wamu card with 9% on BT (but 0% on purchases until April 2010, hmmmm) and a Discover card with 1.9% BT rate, 3% uncapped.

I'm hoping that's because of the earlier balances I no longer have...

edit: Maybe not :( It's looking like oustanding balances are likely to be given more weight in their credit risk assessments.

I've added in the WAMU pre-approved offer; it indeed offers 18 months of 0% interest on purchases (needs a BT over $100, easy paydown) *and* is a rewards card that gives me 7k points after the first purchase, good for a $50 gift card.

edit... and free FICO scores too

Moonbutt said: Any idea why Fatwallet keeps breaking the links? All the links to https:// sites have an extra http:// inserted in them when I use them, that isn't present in the post's link text.
Use "https" or "S" instead of "http" or "L".

Common noob mistake.

Discover has been including lots of offers in junk mail and in sunday newspaper coupon sections. Some of them might be decent if you can't find a better one elsewhere (haven't reviewed them closely).

Moonbutt said: markkundinger said: Discover has been including lots of offers in junk mail and in sunday newspaper coupon sections. Some of them might be decent if you can't find a better one elsewhere (haven't reviewed them closely).

I have a fresh Discover pre-approved offer in the mail this week, I don't recall any signup bonuses in it; I'll have to check again. Thanks for the heads up. But it seems that all the ones in the thread that collected them are all gone.

Most of the cards currently in my OP are still good, fortunately. The only thing I goofed was forgetting to pay down the Chase to below 49%. I'm going to go for it anyway, as I'm going to stick to no more than 8 total apps for this first go-round.

Now another noob question: I see that others doing AOR's are doing b* immediately afterwards. If I don't plan on seeking any other credit for the next year, is that worth the effort for me?

p.s. fixed the links, thanks for the tip. The symbols here are significantly different from those on other boards I've been on.

One ground for adverse action after an AOR is number of inquiries. If you can bump them off, you take away that basis for a massive account closure. Of course, if your new accounts are not business, they can still see those new accounts.

peteypablo said: One ground for adverse action after an AOR is number of inquiries. If you can bump them off, you take away that basis for a massive account closure. Of course, if your new accounts are not business, they can still see those new accounts.

I've already noted the information in the OP of the "choppage" thread. I'm going to have to read the whole thing through and make up my mind about whether I'm willing to be that dedicated -- or chicken out for now and just focus on finding a new home for the Chase debt, and a backup or two for the TrueEarnings card.

At least my current gig looks like it will extend into next summer; as it pays the best I've had yet, I can really go to town on moving towards debt-free status.

I'm going to be really busy digging in the data mines here today, especially with regards to what people are seeing in the last few weeks

Within a week, I have THREE WaMu solicitations, for the exact same offer. After noting Aquone's crappy results with them even with offer, I was thinking of striking them off the list -- but three distinct offers? Maybe I could apply for all three at once, then consolidate

In other news, tonight all cards should have reported, and everything will be in place for apps, either tomorrow or Thursday morning.

Now another n00b question: any suggestions regarding the order of apps? I'm thinking of doing the BoA card or USBank cards first, as those are the debt carrier candidates that get top priority.

Just found your A0R thread... My random comments:

Nice job getting prepared with low inquiries and no recent newly opened accounts. I think you'll do well.

If you could hide that high utilized account, (even get it down into the 35%'ish area...) I'm sure you will get great results. If you can't hide it you still will probably will do well just more risk of not getting the best possible results, IMO.

Too bad you don't have a BoA credit card with the enhanced billpay feature, which can be used to pay other credit cards while maintaining grace period. That would be a great way to "float" temporarily a large balance onto a BoA card.

BoA is also really easy to reallocate and BT with.

I noticed you have three citi's: a driver's edge for rewards it seems and two BT cards. If you want to try paring that down, I hear you can BT with citi right away, pay it completely off before the end of 12 months, then you'll see the 12-mo no fee BT offer re-appear again, trigger that a second time before it expires and get another 12 months. Using that strategy could reduce the need to get two citi 0% BT cards. (Although associated bank is possibly a good strategy for extra CL buckets.) Just beware of too many citi apps. Don't do more than three.

Consider the citi platinum am ex instead of the driver's edge for a good purchases card. The 3-5 typ per dollar on everything really kicks a$$. But I hear drivers edge could do pretty well you just don't get the 3% on eBay/paypal, etc.

Looks like some nice juicy BT offers are still to be had! I see you've found lots with no BT fees, wow! Good to know they are still there!

Also, given the uncertainty with the pre-approved Wa Mu offer, if you decide to go for it (which I'll be very interested it hear about how it goes, if you do) I'd recommend putting it high up on the list! Go for the max 30k CL. Remember it will undoubtedly pull TU.

Remember that BoA and Citi report new accounts as quickly as 2-3 days after opening on EX! Be sure to get all your apps done before any new accounts hit your report.

Your discover application is invalid. (If you do apply for some other discover app though, I'd put it low on the list. They are pretty stingy with credit limits.)

Glitch99 said: The last I paid attention to it, AMEX reports the statement balance on the first day of the second month after the statement closes. So your statement closes Sept 17, that amount will be reported on/about Nov 1st. Some other issuers also report on the first of each month, but without hte extra month's lag.

To add another data point to Glitch's on Am Ex reporting, I have an Am Ex IN:LA credit card that statement cycles on the 27th of each month. This usually hits the credit reports about 2 weeks later on the 13-14th of the following month, however I found instances where it reported as quickly as the 9th and as late as the 15th.

Hi jakeru,

Re: AM3X reporting, you are right -- they haven't yet reported as of right now.. it still shows the $3.3k balance from the previous cycle instead of the credit balance it had on the 17th, when mine cycles. Blast it, that's the biggest balance I have left other than the Chase card. I need it gone.. hopefully soon. BOA plain ol' VISA reports 0, the Ducks should be so by tomorrow.

Re: "enhanced" BOA bill pay, how would I know if I have that? I use BP extensively for everything.

I'm avoiding any more AM3X for now, all that AA talk has me spooked. I like the TrueEarnings card and don't want it crunched. Besides, I have 110 miles daily commute (in a hybrid), so the driver's edge could work out quite well for me.

You are right about the Citi cardz, I noticed that you can do BT in the 11th month and still get 12 mo 0% from that date. As Citi is skittish as all get out these days, judging from other AOR threads, I'm fine with stepping back to just one personal and one biz with them.

US Bank, on the other hand, is going strong. I just got an interesting offer today from them with 0% purchase 12mo, and no-fee BT's at 3.99% for SIXTY billing cycles. Weird. It seems like the issuers are starting to do some of these odd combinations instead of straight-up 0% no-fee cards. Their cards seem to be the best no-fee 0% options after the BOA option; should I try for more than one with them (perhaps the Linux + this offer)? Or is that a bad idea seeing as I have no existing or prior relationship with them?

In any case, until the BOA and AM3X report in with zero balances, I'm on hold.

Two months in, and I have my first AA in the last few weeks, both from Juniper. They are now chasing balances on the BankAtlantic biz (which means little, as it was at about 85% util and I'm done with it) and on the I Fly (which hurts more, as it only had about $800 on it.)

The reasons given were "too many other new accounts" on the BankAtlantic, and something similar on the I Fly (I'll double-check that tonight and post if it's actually different).

USBank, on the other hand, just sent me another offer like one I had in October -- 3.99% BT, no fees, until 2014. That's even though I just did an AOR and have just a smidge over 50% util on their Linux card I got therein. I get the impression that USBank doesn't seem to have noticed the current goings-on at all, unlike Juniper.

If I hadn't just done the AOR, I'd consider that card, as I expect inflation to return with bell bottoms on well before 2014.