Shandril said:The funny thing is that on the panel GM CEO argued that they're currently burning thru $5B/month and that they expect their portion of the bailout to provide them with $10-12B. Quick math means this massive bailout will keep them burning cash for 2 extra months. Do they seriously think they can turn around, restructure, and recover from this recession by March 09?

To me it sounds like an addict who'd say anything to get you to loan them money for their next dose. "I'll use the money to clean myself up and find a job."

Throwing money at the big 3, is like giving the patient a pain killer instead of trying to cure the infection. They probably need government guaranteed access to capital, but not until they clean their house first. And if they were willing to do that on their own, they would have already. By now, there are very few people who believe the story of magically returning to profitability on antiquited business models, with poor management, and insane contractual obligations.

Barney Frank a.k.a. Joker, stated on radio this morning that, upto $140B can be handed to TRIO since we did that to save AIG.
I am convinced that, a full blown revolution will be required to uproot all these corrupt bas***ds...

As soon as TRIO gets the bailout, AIRLINE industry is already lining up for $50B or so.....

and party will continue...

Soon every single big corporation will be owned by US government....without any benefit to the taxpyer, whose money is wasted on them....

Can the current economy absorb yet another big blow without falling into a tailspin? My concern about losing the Big Three is not so much the jobs that will be directly lost, but the overall affect that this would have on the stock market and on consumer confidence.

Saving the domestic automakers should be done if for no other reason than to keep us as far away as possible from the precipice that leads to a depression. And I agree, restructuring contingencies must be tied to the loan to ensure future profitability.

Allowing the Big Three to hang themselves once the economy recovers, though undesirable, is at least not as scary a prospect. Sometimes a dead dog is still dead, no matter how long you try to blow air into its lungs. Will Detroit supply 100+ MPG vehicles, true quality craftsmanship and competitive pricing within 5 years? If not then it may be too late for them.

hope69 said:erinm said:

UAW worker do NOT make $80-90/hour in wages and benefits. The UAW worker makes as much or less than a non-UAW worker in wages and benefits. Simple googling will tell you this.

The $71-73/hour number you hear GM tout is the amount if you figure what their pension plans are currently paying out to retired workers. They considering that part of the current employee's benefits, even though the current employee sees none of it. This is GM's problem because they adopted "pay-as-you-go" pensions, rather than setting the money aside annually way back before the retired workers were retired.

Many UAW workers are skilled. They are pipefitters, electricians, millwrights...

I encourage you to do a little research before you throw out figures you know nothing about.

Let's see, most of those UAW workers don't have college degree, what you called skilled workers shouldn't get more than 20 USD per hour because the work they do can be taught with in a few month and most people can do it.

Don't forget the job bank program that GM have 12,000 people sitting on their asses and getting paid 30+ per day. I would suggest you do some google of your own before you claim how little GM union workers get paid.

Finally, how do you define "fair" pay? We are in a global market and if we are to make it in this world we have to bring down the cost of labor. Those union workers need to go back and get retrained into doing something that people in other countries can't do.

"Most people can do it"
Actually ALL people can do it.
True, according to erinm, employees at McD and Burger King should get similar pay because they ALSO have to raise children, buy a house, send kids to college, etc.
Erinm, you just made me realize that I should go ask for a 300k raise in salary. I need to send my kids to private school and the new Lamborghini Gallardo does look good in my garage.

My cousin works for one of the MTA union and it's sickening how much these high school dropouts make.
$32/hr for driving a bus, $60+ on holidays/overtime not including pension, health, benenfits.

"Pay as you go"?@!?! they are paying now toward their pension later. You think our SS funds are being nicely stacked on our backyard for the golden day? FYI This is how every pension works.

Average GM worker Salary with benefit:
$150k a year @ $73/hr

Average Dentist Salary
$113k a year

what's wrong with this picture?

Pun said:Average GM worker Salary with benefit:
$150k a year @ $73/hr

Average Dentist Salary
$113k a year

what's wrong with this picture?

That's there's no source. You could just be pulling numbers out of your butt. Septic tank pumpers make $142,000 p.a.

See GM 2007 Annual Report, Page 62

78/hour, includes all costs associated with hiring employees: salary, employer part of social security, employer contributions to pension plan, 401(k), health care and other benefits, holiday and vacation pay, etc. According to the referred report, these costs will go down to $26/hr when the 2007 National Agreement (the contract agreed with the unions last year) is fully implemented. The same report mentions $15/hr for new employees, and $28/hr for existing employees as "base wages".

dealhunter999 said:See GM 2007 Annual Report, Page 62

78/hour, includes all costs associated with hiring employees: salary, employer part of social security, employer contributions to pension plan, 401(k), health care and other benefits, holiday and vacation pay, etc. According to the referred report, these costs will go down to $26/hr when the 2007 National Agreement (the contract agreed with the unions last year) is fully implemented. The same report mentions $15/hr for new employees, and $28/hr for existing employees as "base wages".

Thank you for this factual post.

The fact is that new hires will make roughly the same or less than those who work for non-union plants for Honda, Toyota and Nissan in the southern factories.

$15 per hour is not exactly a lot. It's the retirees and older workers that are killing the big 3 on the cost side. The fact that these new wages are $15 per hour clearly demonstrates a move in the right direction.

I know many people think all cars made by the Big 3 are crap, but it's simply not the case. Without getting into that, however, the question boils down to whether Americans believe making tangible products is an American industry worthy of trying to save.

It is my humble opinion that a country that makes nothing of tangible qualities, such as cars, aircraft, etc. quickly loses its economic and military power, and that it's nothing short of a national security issue to ensure a nation has strong manufacturing base.

The Big 3 must do better in terms of breaking union labor pacts, improving the quality of their vehicles to the point where they at least meet the levels that the Japanese attain, and they need to understand that the 30 year leash they were granted should have been enough time to get their act together, and this is the real deal now - do or die.

But it's a critical industry. And to abandon them this one time after bailing out those who did far worse (AIG, FRE, etc.) would be a mortal sin - especially given that it can be done at a fraction of the cost.

Pun said:Average GM worker Salary with benefit:
$150k a year @ $73/hr

Average Dentist Salary
$113k a year

what's wrong with this picture?

Dentist didnt recognize he could make more on the free market as an auto worker?

The Vote was denied if you haven't heard it yet:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iOTm71rXkkZaLS...

Shahhere

ganda said:fsx100 said:Each GM car includes $3000-5000 in BLOATED UAW retiree benefits and pensions. Thats one of the MAIN reasons that GM (and Ford/Chrysler) is uncompetitive.

GM/Ford/Chrysler's crappy products need big rebates before most people will consider them. If their products weren't crap they wouldn't need to sprinkle bloated $3000-5000 rebates on their turds, and this would all be a wash.

Decent product = no rebates = more profit = honoring your contracts = no begging taxpayers.

Our over valued dollar also helps imports.

I dont get this bailout, 25b seems like a piss in the ocean when you burn billions each mth.