If we all didn't pay our income taxes next year as a protest to the bailouts...

...what would happen?

Our government says they can't do anything about 12 million illegals in the country - far too difficult to find and deport 12M people apparently - so what would happen if 12M of us hardworking taxpayers dug our heels in and refused to have our taxes taken to be handed to failed corporations?

I *think* I'm joking, although this country *was* founded through disobedience.

What about 25,000,000 taxpayer protest? Where's the tipping point?

They would just create the difference out of thin air and spend double the amount we withheld trying to impose fines and prison terms.

Interesting game theory puzzle. For this to work, everyone has to count on everyone else to protest. If not a critical mass does this, those people that do face prison time or some other penalty. So the question then is do you do it or do you not?

ganda said: What about 25,000,000 taxpayer protest? Where's the tipping point?The tipping point I believe is way below 25 million people. Maybe 5 million will do it.

Technically it is hard to do because the taxes are withheld in each paycheck.

I'm reading that 'troubled' home borrowers get to pay 3% interest rate for three years. With very few exceptions, the troubled home borrowers are idiots who got what they deserve and should be living in a cardboard box for the excesses they brought upon themselves. That said, I understand how it draws down the property value of their more conscientious neighbors when these bums are on the street.

So all I would like is to pay the same rate as them. I mean, if idiots are going to get rewarded, let's at least not have the rest of us now pay an even more unfair burden for them.

-a 'troubled' home borrower (troubled at idiots getting PAID!)

There was an article during the (I think) 2000 year election cycle about a plan hatched by libertarians to move 20,000 libertarian-voting families to new hampshire, as this would give them enough voting power to get at least one senator (I'm typing all this from memory, some of the details may be off).

Of course, they quickly ran into the obvious problem that it's nearly impossible to get 20,000 libertarians to do anything, and the plan was abandoned.

riznick said: ganda said: ...what would happen?

Our government says they can't do anything about 12 million illegals in the country - far too difficult to find and deport 12M people apparently - so what would happen if 12M of us hardworking taxpayers dug our heels in and refused to have our taxes taken to be handed to failed corporations?

I *think* I'm joking, although this country *was* founded through disobedience.

What about 25,000,000 taxpayer protest? Where's the tipping point?

You could just leave the country, if you want it to fail. If enough people don't pay taxes, the country will probably fall apart quickly.

a. I don't want the country to fail
b. The USA taxes on citizenship not residency (so they'll get ya anyway).

jayK said: lostdude said: That I would be rich if I get a penny for every protest thread in FWF? Maybe FWF should change the name to its mission statemetn?What's even better is that usually these "protests" involve a net profit for the "protester".

If enough people did this, it would dramatically increase enforcement costs for the IRS and lead to more government borrowing (at least in the short term) to fill the revenue gap. Obviously criminal penalties on this scale are not possible, but the civil penalties handed out to the "protesters" would help subsidize lower taxes for the rest of us.I think if enough people did this, the entire tax code will be re-written. I am not saying the government doens't need to collect taxes. But the current code is just too complex and too narrowly focused on collecting money from wage earners. A simpler code, whether it being a somewhar flat tax, or a simplifed income tax such as the 1986 code, will save the economy a big amount of waste.

svap said: riznick said: ...b. The USA taxes on citizenship not residency (so they'll get ya anyway).

USA taxes on residency. You don't need to be citizen to get SS# with authorization to work.

True, but I meant the other way. Go live in Spain and the IRS will still get you (less what you paid in Spain). Go live in Monaco (and pay no income taxes) and the IRS will want its FULL slice.

ganda said: ...what would happen?

We'd go to jail.

soundtechie said: There was an article during the (I think) 2000 year election cycle about a plan hatched by libertarians to move 20,000 libertarian-voting families to new hampshire, as this would give them enough voting power to get at least one senator (I'm typing all this from memory, some of the details may be off).


Of course, they quickly ran into the obvious problem that it's nearly impossible to get 20,000 libertarians to do anything, and the plan was abandoned.

it's called the Free State Project.

very interesting idea...

http://freestateproject.org/

OP, don't be a jackass. If you don't want to pay your taxes, feel free, but please don't encourage other people to do the same. First, if you are a wage slave, they KNOW you owe taxes because your company files a W-2. Therefore, it does not take much to haul your ass in for an audit to inflict taxes and penalties.

Pay your taxes, deadbeat. Don't use "protest" as a way to avoid your obligations to pay the tax that is due.

there must be worse things for the govt has done than to bail out irresponsible parties with responsible people's money...

you want to protest the bailouts, why not the war in iraq or pro/con universal healthcare, gay marriage, free the chickens, whatever. where will the tax dodging in the name of good/bad end?

1

Heh, just because it doesnt make good economic sense doesnt mean our government wont do it. Case in point, using borrowed money to bail out failed or failing businesses.

I don't understand why the government (see also freddy+fannie+TARP) doesn't readjust all mortgages to 3% and offer 3% mortgages until dec 2009 to get rid of existing homes? Then they could lump everything together and stamp it AAA and sell it for $.9/$1.

I mean who wouldn't want a 30 year 3% mortgage? Heck even I'd buy a house, and we wouldn't have to keep hugo chavezing our country. My huge stock losses don't make me nearly as mad as chavez does by making fun of us for doing the exact things he does to his country...minimalizing public exposure to big business by taking over public firms.

ceobeaver said: They would just create the difference out of thin air and spend double the amount we withheld trying to impose fines and prison terms.

Seriously. A lot of people in this thread seem to think that there is actually some connection between the amount the government collects in taxes and the amounts that it spends. How do you think deficit spending works? What makes you think that less tax revenue will suddenly make our legislators act responsibly?

Whether or not people "protest" by not paying taxes, the reality is that tax revenues are going to decrease significantly (smaller economy = smaller amount of taxes collected), and it will be political suicide to attempt to either raise taxes or cut spending during a recession. Instead they will borrow the money into existence, regardless of how much currency depreciation this will cause.

ganda said: ...what would happen?
I'm with you buddy. Was prepared to too, and imagine my surprise when I stumbled across this Hendrickson guy who says LEGALLY, YOU SHOULD NOT BE PAYING INCOME TAXES. You may find it hard to believe, a bit hard to read, and it may make you MAD AS HELL, but the federal income tax is not what most Americans have been led to believe. His argument is somewhat hard to summarize but here's a 3-page attempt. And since his book's publication in 2003, he's never lost a federal lawsuit, been imprisoned, or had property confiscated. Anyway, I'm getting a refund and sending NO MORE $ TO WASHINGTON! WHO'S WITH ME?

ganda said: ...what would happen?

Our government says they can't do anything about 12 million illegals in the country - far too difficult to find and deport 12M people apparently - so what would happen if 12M of us hardworking taxpayers dug our heels in and refused to have our taxes taken to be handed to failed corporations?

I *think* I'm joking, although this country *was* founded through disobedience.

What about 25,000,000 taxpayer protest? Where's the tipping point?

I can't agree to this out of principal. Sure, a portion of our taxes will be to assist the bailout plan. But our income taxes are also used for federal services which have nothing to do with the bailout. Isn't this what is happening now? The innocent (people who never participated in the mess) are being punished? By not paying your income taxes to "protest" the bailout, you would be doing exactly the same. Two wrongs do not make a right.

In addition, are you prepared to fully accept the consequences by not paying your income taxes?

While I admire your intentions, this line of thinking is exactly how we get ourselves into these problems. Where is the morality, the ethics, the responsibility?

The time to protest the bailout was 2 months ago. Did you call Congress, fax your representatives, etc? We have to better our country and society by bettering ourselves as individuals. Sorry, but not paying your income taxes, as much as I would like to also, is not going to make things better.

DavidScubadiver said: OP, don't be a jackass. If you don't want to pay your taxes, feel free, but please don't encourage other people to do the same. First, if you are a wage slave, they KNOW you owe taxes because your company files a W-2. Therefore, it does not take much to haul your ass in for an audit to inflict taxes and penalties.

Pay your taxes, deadbeat. Don't use "protest" as a way to avoid your obligations to pay the tax that is due.OP would last about three seconds under an IRS auditor's scrutiny before he/she broke.

Nationwide, let us know how that works out for you. Let me give you a hint. Your personnel department will tell you to fill out a w-4 form if you want to change your allowances. If you refuse to do so, you will be terminated for stupidity.