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Update: 03/05/09
Home Affordable Modification Program Guidelines PDF LINK

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Wire: BLOOMBERG News (BN) Date: 2009-02-18 14:57:10
Obama Housing Plan Questions and Answers (Text of Release)


Feb. 18 (Bloomberg) -- The following is a reformatted
version of questions and answers on the Obama administration’s
housing plan released today by the U.S. Treasury in Washington.

Questions and Answers for Borrowers about the Homeowner
Affordability and Stability Plan

Borrowers Who Are Current on Their Mortgage Are Asking:

1. What help is available for borrowers who stay current on their
mortgage payments but have seen their homes decrease in value?
Under the Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan, eligible
borrowers who stay current on their mortgages but have been
unable to refinance to lower their interest rates because their
homes have decreased in value, may now have the opportunity to
refinance into a 30 or 15 year, fixed rate loan. Through the
program, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac will allow the refinancing of
mortgage loans that they hold in their portfolios or that they
placed in mortgage backed securities.

2. I owe more than my property is worth, do I still qualify to
refinance under the Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan?
Eligible loans will now include those where the new first
mortgage (including any refinancing costs) will not exceed 105%
of the current market value of the property. For example, if your
property is worth $200,000 but you owe $210,000 or less you may
qualify. The current value of your property will be determined
after you apply to refinance.

3. How do I know if I am eligible?
Complete eligibility details will be announced on March 4th when
the program starts. The criteria for eligibility will include
having sufficient income to make the new payment and an
acceptable mortgage payment history. The program is limited to
loans held or securitized by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac.

4. I have both a first and a second mortgage. Do I still qualify
to refinance under the Homeowner Affordability and Stability
Plan?
As long as the amount due on the first mortgage is less than 105%
of the value of the property, borrowers with more than one
mortgage may be eligible to refinance under the Homeowner
Affordability and Stability Plan. Your eligibility will depend,
in part, on agreement by the lender that has your second mortgage
to remain in a second position, and on your ability to meet the
new payment terms on the first mortgage.

5. Will refinancing lower my payments?
The objective of the Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan
is to provide creditworthy borrowers who have shown a commitment
to paying their mortgage with affordable payments that are
sustainable for the life of the loan. Borrowers whose mortgage
interest rates are much higher than the current market rate
should see an immediate reduction in their payments. Borrowers
who are paying interest only, or who have a low introductory rate
that will increase in the future, may not see their current
payment go down if they refinance to a fixed rate. These
borrowers, however, could save a great deal over the life of the
loan. When you submit a loan application, your lender will give
you a “Good Faith Estimate” that includes your new interest rate,
mortgage payment and the amount that you will pay over the life
of the loan. Compare this to your current loan terms. If it is
not an improvement, a refinancing may not be right for you.

6. What are the interest rate and other terms of this refinance
offer?
The objective of the Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan
is to provide borrowers with a safe loan program with a fixed,
affordable payment. All loans refinanced under the plan will have
a 30 or 15 year term with a fixed interest rate. The rate will be
based on market rates in effect at the time of the refinance and
any associated points and fees quoted by the lender. Interest
rates may vary across lenders and over time as market rates
adjust. The refinanced loans will have no prepayment penalties or
balloon notes.

7. Will refinancing reduce the amount that I owe on my loan?
No. The objective of the Homeowner Affordability and Stability
Plan is to help borrowers refinance into safer, more affordable
fixed rate loans. Refinancing will not reduce the amount you owe
to the first mortgage holder or any other debt you owe. However,
by reducing the interest rate, refinancing should save you money
by reducing the amount of interest that you repay over the life
of the loan.

8. How do I know if my loan is owned or has been securitized by
Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac?
To determine if your loan is owned or has been securitized by
Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac and is eligible to be refinanced, you
should contact your mortgage lender after March 4, 2009.

9. When can I apply?
Mortgage lenders will begin accepting applications after the
details of the program are announced on March 4, 2009.

10. What should I do in the meantime?
You should gather the information that you will need to provide
to your lender after March 4, when the refinance program becomes
available. This includes:
• information about the gross monthly income of all borrowers,
including your most recent pay stubs if you receive them or
documentation of income you receive from other sources
• your most recent income tax return
• information about any second mortgage on the house
• payments on each of your credit cards if you are carrying
balances from month to month, and
• payments on other loans such as student loans and car loans.


Borrowers Who Are at Risk of Foreclosure Are Asking:

1. What help is available for borrowers who are at risk of
foreclosure either because they are behind on their mortgage or
are struggling to make the payments?
The Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan offers help to
borrowers who are already behind on their mortgage payments or
who are struggling to keep their loans current. By providing
mortgage lenders with financial incentives to modify existing
first mortgages, the Treasury hopes to help as many as 3 to 4
million homeowners avoid foreclosure regardless of who owns or
services the mortgage.

2. Do I need to be behind on my mortgage payments to be eligible
for a modification?
No. Borrowers who are struggling to stay current on their
mortgage payments may be eligible if their income is not
sufficient to continue to make their mortgage payments and they
are at risk of imminent default. This may be due to several
factors, such as a loss of income, a significant increase in
expenses, or an interest rate that will reset to an unaffordable
level.

3. How do I know if I qualify for a payment reduction under the
Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan?
In general, you may qualify for a mortgage modification if (a)
you occupy your house as your primary residence; (b) your monthly
mortgage payment is greater than 31% of your monthly gross
income; and (c) your loan is not large enough to exceed current
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac loan limits. Final eligibility will be
determined by your mortgage lender based on your financial
situation and detailed guidelines that will be available on March
4, 2009.

4. I do not live in the house that secures the mortgage I’d like
to modify. Is this mortgage eligible for the Homeowner
Affordability and Stability Plan?
No. For example, if you own a house that you use as a vacation
home or that you rent out to tenants, the mortgage on that house
is not eligible. If you used to live in the home but you moved
out, the mortgage is not eligible. Only the mortgage on your
primary residence is eligible. The mortgage lender will check to
see if the dwelling is your primary residence.

5. I have a mortgage on a duplex. I live in one unit and rent the
other. Will I still be eligible?
Yes. Mortgages on 2, 3 and 4 unit properties are eligible as long
as you live in one unit as your primary residence.

6. I have two mortgages. Will the Homeowner Affordability and
Stability Plan reduce the payments on both?
Only the first mortgage is eligible for a modification.

7. I owe more than my house is worth. Will the Homeowner
Affordability and Stability Plan reduce what I owe?
The primary objective of the Homeowner Affordability and
Stability Plan is to help borrowers avoid foreclosure by
modifying troubled loans to achieve a payment the borrower can
afford. Lenders are likely to lower payments mainly by reducing
loan interest rates. However, the program offers incentives for
principal reductions and at your lender’s discretion
modifications may include upfront reductions of loan principal.

8. I heard the government was providing a financial incentive to
borrowers. Is that true?
Yes. To encourage borrowers who work hard to retain
homeownership, the Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan
provides incentive payments as a borrower makes timely payments
on the modified loan. The incentive will accrue on a monthly
basis and will be applied directly to reduce your mortgage debt.
Borrowers who pay on time for five years can have up to $5,000
applied to reduce their debt by the end of that period.

9. How much will a modification cost me?
There is no cost to borrowers for a modification under the
Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan. If you wish to get
assistance from a HUD-approved housing counseling agency or are
referred to a counselor as a condition of the modification, you
will not be charged a fee. Borrowers should beware of any
organization that attempts to charge a fee for housing counseling
or modification of a delinquent loan, especially if they require
a fee in advance.

10. Is my lender required to modify my loan?
No. Mortgage lenders participate in the program on a voluntary
basis and loans are evaluated for modification on a case-by-case
basis. But the government is offering substantial incentives and
it is expected that most major lenders will participate.

11. I’m already working with my lender / housing counselor on a
loan workout. Can I still be considered for the Homeowner
Affordability and Stability Plan?
Ask your lender or counselor to be considered under the Homeowner
Affordability and Stability Plan.

12. How do I apply for a modification under the Homeowner
Affordability and Stability Plan?
You may not need to do anything at this time. Most mortgage
lenders will evaluate loans in their portfolio to identify
borrowers who may meet the eligibility criteria. After March 4
they will send letters to potentially eligible homeowners, a
process that may take several weeks. If you think you qualify for
a modification and do not receive a letter within several weeks,
contact your mortgage servicer or a HUD-approved housing
counselor. Please be aware that servicers and counseling agencies
are expected to receive an extraordinary number of calls about
this program.

13. What should I do in the meantime? You should gather the
information that you will need to provide to your lender on or
after March 4, when the modification program becomes available.
This includes:
• information about the monthly gross income of your household
including recent pay stubs if you receive them or documentation
of income you receive from other sources
• your most recent income tax return
• information about any second mortgage on the house
• payments on each of your credit cards if you are carrying
balances from month to month, and
• payments on other loans such as student loans and car loans.

14. My loan is scheduled for foreclosure soon. What should I do?
Contact your mortgage servicer or credit counselor. Many mortgage
lenders have expressed their intention to postpone foreclosure
sales on all mortgages that may qualify for the modification in
order to allow sufficient time to evaluate the borrower’s
eligibility. We support this effort.



"The program is limited to
loans held or securitized by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac."

So if your lender is someone else, you really are left with no choice but to walk away.


tester99 said: "The program is limited to
loans held or securitized by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac."

So if your lender is someone else, you really are left with no choice but to walk away.

It sounds like any of us that have mortgages from someone other than Fannie or Freddie are going to be left in the dust. I'd really like to refinance. But since my LTV is probably now closer to 90% than under the under 80% it was at when I bought the house, I still am in no better position to refinance.


flashburn said: tester99 said: "The program is limited to
loans held or securitized by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac."

So if your lender is someone else, you really are left with no choice but to walk away.


It sounds like any of us that have mortgages from someone other than Fannie or Freddie are going to be left in the dust. I'd really like to refinance. But since my LTV is probably now closer to 90% than under the under 80% it was at when I bought the house, I still am in no better position to refinance.

You don't get mortgages directly from Fannie or Freddie. Most U.S. mortgages, regardless of originating lender, are bought on the back-end by FRE and FNM.



I am asking:

How influential was the mortgage broker lobby in the creation of this plan?

What happens to the people who refinance or modify under the plan and STILL do not make their mortgage payments? Can we stone them?

This is called the "Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan", however, it makes home ownership LESS affordable for responsible people who don't currently own a home by propping up deadbeats and people who made poor investment choices. Are you considering a different name for the program?

When should we expect the "Renter Affordability and Stability Plan" which will allow renters to unilaterally renegotiate their leases when they don't want to pay the full agreed-upon rent?

WTF are you thinking?


"Most U.S. mortgages, regardless of originating lender, are bought on the back-end by FRE and FNM."

Maybe, I cant find out who has my loan. Anyone dealing with Aurora and know who really has our loans?


"What help is available for borrowers who stay current on their mortgage payments but have seen their homes decrease in value?"

If I read this section correctly, if you are current, but underwater, you'll be allowed to refinance (for the full amount of your original mortage?) at a competitive rate. Nothing mentioned about a principal reduction to go along with that.

Seems like this will cause the opposite of the intended effect, I'm currently in a non-recourse loan, owe 20% more than it's worth, and you want me to refinance, thus turning it into a recourse loan, but I still owe the full amount? Um, no... this is just more ammo to walk away.


I am getting kinda irratated by the whole situation

I recall when I was building my house a neighbor three houses down didnt realize he would have to pay real estate taxes. He maxed out expenses to the amount he could afford, one year in he was selling the house. Do people have a clue

I scratched and saved on my first home to have 30g equity and added another 20g to have the money to initiate the mortgage I desired. I checked all the cost and figured a plan that was safe for my budget and I have done fine. was even laid off in the middle of it

I have a sad feeling that all this will be is for the people that didnt plan properly. I just get to sit back and get a pat on the back that I did a good job while everyone else will the government help.

lets be fair and have a program that has benefits to ALL


Plan properly? a lot of us got caught up in the actions of others; houses around me are being foreclosed, one is for sale at less than half what i paid! I did plan that my 20% down would allow me to refinance when rates got better... but now I cant like a lot of people as my LTV is ruined.

Im not asking for a write down, im asking for my lender to reduce my APR to market rate, the mess they created that my tax dollars went to bail them out, has locked me into paying them more money.


dsru said: treasury dept fact sheet

http://www.treas.gov/initiatives/eesa/homeowner-affordability-pl...


A choice quote from the linked factsheet: "Treasury will not provide subsidies to reduce interest rates on modified loans to levels below 2%" emphasis mine.

Great, so responsible people who can afford their homes get stuck paying interest at market rates 5-6%+, while the irresponsible only have to pay a far below market rate 2% interest. Even better, this quote was taken from the section of the factsheet entitled "Protecting Taxpayers"!


This sounds really good for us that are current on our payments. The only issue is if its backed by Freddie or Fannie. It says to ask your lender after March 4. They are going to be SWAMPED on March 4th. I wish there was a way to find out sooner.


tester99 said: "Most U.S. mortgages, regardless of originating lender, are bought on the back-end by FRE and FNM."

Maybe, I cant find out who has my loan. Anyone dealing with Aurora and know who really has our loans?

You have to call your servicer (apparently Aurora) and ask. There's no other (reasonable) way for you to find out.


They dont know anything, They are complete morons.


I will probably get some red for this, but it actually does not look quite as bad as I feared for a couple reasons:

1) actually something in there for people who are current in their mortgages.
2) Investment properties are not eligible (no rewarding house flippers)
3) No help if you are way underwater
4) Besides some relatively small credits, no reduction of loan balances

No don't get me wrong, I am still not all that happy about it, it is just not as bad as I thought it might be.


So if you are way under water, say 200K plus, this bill will not help?


JorgeBurrito said: I will probably get some red for this, but it actually does not look quite as bad as I feared for a couple reasons:

1) actually something in there for people who are current in their mortgages.
2) Investment properties are not eligible (no rewarding house flippers)
3) No help if you are way underwater
4) Besides some relatively small credits, no reduction of loan balances

No don't get me wrong, I am still not all that happy about it, it is just not as bad as I thought it might be.
I agree. The government's role in the free market is to address the extremes. The current condition is one of those extremes.

Sure, it would've been better to have addressed it a couple years ago, when the extreme was on the up-side. But you cant go back and change it (which is why 'fixing' it by punishing those you feel is responsible is counter-productive).

Yes, it isnt fair to everyone. But the purpose is to fix the system, not make it fair. The market will rebalance fairness once the extreme has been mitigated.

The only danger is if they try to expand the 'fix' in an attempt to make it a durable preventative measure as well. Fixing the current situation and preventing it from happening again should be two separate and distinct plans, with prevention being addressed only once a sense of 'normalcy' has returned.


JorgeBurrito said: I will probably get some red for this, but it actually does not look quite as bad as I feared for a couple reasons:

1) actually something in there for people who are current in their mortgages.
2) Investment properties are not eligible (no rewarding house flippers)
3) No help if you are way underwater
4) Besides some relatively small credits, no reduction of loan balances

No don't get me wrong, I am still not all that happy about it, it is just not as bad as I thought it might be.

This announcement spoiled my mood: now, I have to wait longer before I can afford to buy my first property. F.ng socialism - govt proping up property values I want to cry

And to add to your point: many of currently delinquent loans are not owned by FRE or FNM (If I remember correctly only about 20% of total delinqent loans). In addition, FNM and FRE already had similar "help" programs prior to that announcement. So, I don't see how that will change anything

What is bothering is that fed now "doubled down on red" ($200B x 2): WTF for?


hedwigdaowl said:

8. I heard the government was providing a financial incentive to
borrowers. Is that true?
Yes. To encourage borrowers who work hard to retain
homeownership, the Homeowner Affordability and Stability Plan
provides incentive payments as a borrower makes timely payments
on the modified loan. The incentive will accrue on a monthly
basis and will be applied directly to reduce your mortgage debt.
Borrowers who pay on time for five years can have up to $5,000
applied to reduce their debt by the end of that period.

This provision is amazing. How about we make the incentive "Yes. You get to keep your home and live in it."

Seriously, here is one idea I haven't seen proposed. As an exchange for government assistance, why don't we take away the capital gains exception for that property. Then, assuming housing turns around, the government will get some payback. Only homeowners who get a capital gain courtesy of the government will have to pay. Sounds more than fair to me.


Okay. So let's say my loan is owned by Freddie Mac on the back end, and the LTV is around 90%. Notwithstanding whether the new provisions would help me to refinance, can I now simply have the PMI dropped?


JorgeBurrito said: I will probably get some red for this, but it actually does not look quite as bad as I feared for a couple reasons:

1) actually something in there for people who are current in their mortgages.

If you continue reading, it sounds like this will only help people who are current in their mortgage, but are at risk for default in the near future. It doesn't look like they are going to let the responsible people who purchased homes that they can afford to refinance. It says they will look at the finances on a case-by-case basis, which means if you can afford your home, and you want to refinance to a lower rate - too bad for you unless you dump in tens of thousands of dollars to get to 80% LTV again.

I'm pretty sure that letting the responsible people refinance and put a couple hundred extra dollars per month in their pocket would help stimulate the economy too.


FYI Just called Aurora and they said FNM backed.

So, ultimately, if I am reading this correctly...I owe 309,000, house is worth low 200's, have adjustable up in May 2010, have no problem paying mortgage, good credit, blah, blah, but LTV makes it a no go???


Quidnam said: Okay. So let's say my loan is owned by Freddie Mac on the back end, and the LTV is around 90%. Notwithstanding whether the new provisions would help me to refinance, can I now simply have the PMI dropped?
very easy: put down another 10% to bring it to 80%


An observation about these proposals by Obama and prev Bush administration. They create plans that only help homeowners that are current but on the verge of default. By the time, they get to the execution part, another plan comes in and the poor home owners get defaulted anyway.


I may qualify for a reduction, single 4 kids, mortgage was based on income that included receiving child support. I have NEVER been late on my loan, but as kids get older and c/s drops, payments are a huge percentage of my income. My rate is 6.5% (bal $117,900)and this may give me a 150-170/mo. payment relief, maybe a bit more.


FAQ #69:

I HELOC'd my home up to *here* year after year to buy expensive clothing, fancy cars, and lavish vacations. Do I still qualify?


CreditCrunch said: FAQ #69:

I HELOC'd my home up to *here* year after year to buy expensive clothing, fancy cars, and lavish vacations. Do I still qualify?

second mortgages do not qualify, sorry


NorthStar2020 said: An observation about these proposals by Obama and prev Bush administration. They create plans that only help homeowners that are current but on the verge of default. By the time, they get to the execution part, another plan comes in and the poor home owners get defaulted anyway.Which is why its important that they stick with this plan, and summarily dismiss any other speculation that may pop up along the way.

A single definitive plan is the key, regardless of who may think its a good plan or a bad plan.


justinac said: "What help is available for borrowers who stay current on their mortgage payments but have seen their homes decrease in value?"

If I read this section correctly, if you are current, but underwater, you'll be allowed to refinance (for the full amount of your original mortage?) at a competitive rate. Nothing mentioned about a principal reduction to go along with that.

Seems like this will cause the opposite of the intended effect, I'm currently in a non-recourse loan, owe 20% more than it's worth, and you want me to refinance, thus turning it into a recourse loan, but I still owe the full amount? Um, no... this is just more ammo to walk away.

The real question is, will PMI be affected by this?

We did <20% down on a home this past summer. Value is slightly up, but not to the 20% LTV mark.

We sought to refinance, and despite having top tier credit, really could not reduce our payment. While the rate went to5% from our current 6.375%, the PMI doubled, even tripled, depending on the lender quoting it. That all but cleaned out the monthly savings.

On one hand, I'm happy to have a home in a desirable area that hasn't (yet) declined at a historically lower interest rate. On the other, I'm faced with the reality that the rate doesn't matter if PMI is ridiculous. Thankfully, we can afford our payment. For those that can't, though, how is this going to help if PMI has skyrocketed since they took out their loan?


I know that re-fi's cost money. I know that a interest rate subsity will cost money. The *reward for not being a deadbeat* payments will cost money...

How is this adding up to 75 Billion?!


$75B is enough to help the Inland Empire, CA. Where's the rest for the other parts of the country? This is just another show piece to claim they are doing something, but where they know that the only real solution is to let it crash.


Dupe


gives us an incentive to quit 100k jobs and get a laid back part time job making 10/hour to maximize the write down... Oh, and uncle sam will pay about $83 to my payment.


Are the details of *each* of these loans going to be listed transparently on a government website? I want to know which houses are getting subsidized and at what rate.


This is not going to help the hard hit markets (CA, NV AZ FL etc) at ALL because many of those homes have lost 50% of their value...

This program will only refi if your LTV is 105% of current value or less...most of these homes are now underwater and have loans 120-200% of the homes current value.

Also, this program only applies to FNMA and FRMC mortgages - most of the toxic loans in these states were OPTION ARMs that were never in those portfolios

It seems the only element for others is the Bankruptcy loan modification option of the program, for those who have truly lost it all. That is the only part of the program allowing principal reduction. So yes, this IS encouraging BK because the only way to get principal reduction assistance is by filing BK.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/18/AR2009021801081_2.html?sid=ST2009021801211

"
While some of the measures can be implemented by the Treasury Department, others parts of the plan will require congressional approval. For example, a key part of the administration's new package is legislation changing the bankruptcy law to allow judges to modify the mortgages of distressed homeowners, including by reducing the principal of the loan to the property's current market value. "My administration will continue to support reforming our bankruptcy rules so that we allow judges to reduce home mortgages on primary residences to their fair market value -- as long as borrowers pay their debts under a court-ordered plan," Obama said.

The provision has already passed a House committee, but faces fierce opposition from the financial services industry and Republicans. About 150 consumer bankruptcy lawyers descended on Capitol Hill last week to lobby for the measure


Thanks for some clarification SUCKISSTAPLES

This is what I was afraid of for those that are really underwater it seems that they want you to go away, either walk away. bk , dil. It would seem this will further drive down prices in the hard hit areas and will increase the amount of forclosures. This will be good for those buying first home and bad for those that sunk a good down payment in a new area.

The builder's will get to a point where they will moth-ball projects and that land will sit empty for some time.


Metric said: Plan properly? a lot of us got caught up in the actions of others; houses around me are being foreclosed, one is for sale at less than half what i paid! I did plan that my 20% down would allow me to refinance when rates got better... but now I cant like a lot of people as my LTV is ruined.

Im not asking for a write down, im asking for my lender to reduce my APR to market rate, the mess they created that my tax dollars went to bail them out, has locked me into paying them more money.

I think flexibility in the APR is reasonable but the write downs are frustrating me.

I'm not a finance guru, but why not offer the option of refinancing to a 40 or 50 year note? Yep, it's a hell of a lot of interest, but supposedly the goal is to keep people in their houses. It would do that AND technically, it wouldn't be a bailout at that point. Individuals would still be paying what they agreed to pay.


ChildsEyes said: Metric said: Plan properly? a lot of us got caught up in the actions of others; houses around me are being foreclosed, one is for sale at less than half what i paid! I did plan that my 20% down would allow me to refinance when rates got better... but now I cant like a lot of people as my LTV is ruined.

Im not asking for a write down, im asking for my lender to reduce my APR to market rate, the mess they created that my tax dollars went to bail them out, has locked me into paying them more money.


I think flexibility in the APR is reasonable but the write downs are frustrating me.

I'm not a finance guru, but why not offer the option of refinancing to a 40 or 50 year note? Yep, it's a hell of a lot of interest, but supposedly the goal is to keep people in their houses. It would do that AND technically, it wouldn't be a bailout at that point. Individuals would still be paying what they agreed to pay.

As I understand the proposal, extending note terms would very much be in play...


yes the BK attys in my office say that the BK loan mods will stretch out to 40 years, if this passes.


Skipping 213 Messages...

kenblakely said: I agree. It is *NOT* the case that everyone who bought a house in 2005 or 2006 is a greedy | foolish | deadbeat arsehole who deserves what he gets. I know lots of good people who bought or sold because it was time to move, paid the going rate on a house, got a good solid 30 year fixed mortgage and are now underwater by $100K. They are screwed-screwed-screwed, and thru no fault of their own.

If they were planning on living in the house and considered the price they paid acceptable at the time, how are they screwed just because the value has dropped? They could've gotten a better deal if they had waited, but they had already decided they could afford the price they paid.




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