Dealguy123 said:lynnes1 said:China's pollution is tied to American consumption of goods. I visited China in 2005 and the air quality is atrocious, but the Chinese on average don't over consume like Americans do.

That's precisely the problem of having "carbon credits" and other nonsense like that which "caps" emissions outputs in the US. It'll simply be created over there, and last I checked, we're all living on the same rock. Mandating higher mpg cars, higher efficiency appliances/etc, is one way to help reduce emissions, and it doesn't necessarily push production overseas. Now, again, I can understand WHY some people would be against these things (again, it would likely raise prices), but I'm certainly more in favor of doing these things vs. simply capping carbon/emissions outputs for certain companies/etc.

For God's sakes people, can we stop bickering about who has worse emissions, etc? We all know geebee is grasping at straws with his argument. Who actually has more pollution output is largely irrelevant, as he's introducing a red herring to drive the discussion on a tangent and unrelated point. The important point isn't who has more emissions/waste, but what we can do to ultimately lower the levels. Lynn explained EXACTLY the problem of merely doing cap and trade. Production gets pushed overseas, like I originally said in my earlier posts. There's PLENTY we can do to help bring down emissions/etc without this bill that I would support (the things I mentioned above and many others).Why can't the rest of world coerce China into cutting emissions? Doesn't it depend on us to buy its products?

nycll said:Looks like someone signed up as JustinCasemiester today just to vote my posts red. Loser.
That's ok, I sprinkled some compensatory green when I noticed that as well.

nycll said:Why can't the rest of world coerce China into cutting emissions? Doesn't it depend on us to buy its products?They haven't gotten that far with their thinking. It's easier to point out that China has surpassed the U.S. They're the polluters now, not us, even though we wholeheartedly promote their pollution with our pocketbooks (and still emit much more pollution on a per citizen basis than them).

If we were serious about wanting more jobs here, we would refuse to buy unsafe, pollution-causing crap from China, and start making things here again. We're our own worst enemies -- we're addicted to the cheap sh!t at Wal-Mart.

geebeebee said:(and still emit much more pollution on a per citizen basis than them).
Give this up. It's a canard. I'd rather emit 50 pounds of CO2 than deal with 1 pound of heavy metals or transuranic waste. All pollution is not equal.

ZenNUTS said: you are all quilty.
quilty as charged

EvilCapitalist said:
This coversation will go like this:

US and Europe: We want you to cut emissions.
China: No
US and Europe: We are serious. It will harm out planet.
China: Not going to happen. If we cut our production our people that aren't doing too well to begin with starve.
US and Europe: Well, we will stop buying your shit.
China: You won't
US and Europe: We will!
China: OK, we wait and see
Pretty much this. Only with some sternly worded letters.

kamalktk said:geebeebee said:(and still emit much more pollution on a per citizen basis than them).
Give this up. It's a canard. I'd rather emit 50 pounds of CO2 than deal with 1 pound of heavy metals or transuranic waste. All pollution is not equal.Yep, in this bastion of modern thinking it is. Sorry to confuse everyone with facts that are construed as falsehoods.

Lets see,

how many manufactures will remain in the USA if the cost of their energy goes up?

And then people will wonder why nothing is made in america anymore.

yes credits are given away.

but if the goal is too, in a number of years, cut emmisions by 80%, the way to achieve that goal, will be to removed 80% of the credits.

If you belive in limited supplies of oil and/or peak oil, how could you not have a problem/issue with 'peak output'?

The end result will be the same, but in the case of peak oil, the entire world would equal hurt, in the case of peak output, only americans suffer.

Futhermore, the people that have such great faith in the current crop of politicans (like Nycll), shouldn't you have at least paused in your support of cap and tax, when hours before the voting came down, 300 pages of amendments got added? some 33% of the bill was added at 3am the morning before the vote?

Amazing, that most of the bozo's on the hill, let allone, most americans, couldn't find the time and have the energy to read and understand 300 pages of text, they enjoyed reading. Yet something that will impact the country for centuries, can be understoon, in a matter of hours.

kamalktk said:EvilCapitalist said:
This coversation will go like this:

US and Europe: We want you to cut emissions.
China: No
US and Europe: We are serious. It will harm out planet.
China: Not going to happen. If we cut our production our people that aren't doing too well to begin with starve.
US and Europe: Well, we will stop buying your shit.
China: You won't
US and Europe: We will!
China: OK, we wait and see
Pretty much this. Only with some sternly worded letters.You guys are wrong. If things really develop according to the above, next step would be some carbon footprint based tarrifs. You need to realize the whole idea of cap and trade isn't to stop manufacturing; it is to put a fair price on carbon emissions.

China has been extremely cooperative with the western world when it comes to trade. Carbon emmission is a legitimate trade issue. Educate or re-educate yourselves with the subject matter. Here is a recent article on the trade relations.

nycll said:You guys are wrong. If things really develop according to the above, next step would be some carbon footprint based tarrifs. You need to realize the whole idea of cap and trade isn't to stop manufacturing; it is to put a fair price on carbon emissions.

China has been extremely cooperative with the western world when it comes to trade. Carbon emmission is a legitimate trade issue. Educate or re-educate yourselves with the subject matter. Here is a recent article on the trade relations.
I disagree. Here is the "people who read this also read...". China has a history of accepting these types of things when it benefits them, but ignoring them when it doesn't. We complain about something like drywall, China executes a few token manufacturing plant heads, things continue as before. The US populace does not sufficiently care long term, otherwise the people who lost their manufacturing jobs to China would not be going out and buying goods from China at WalMart et al.