minorthreat1 said:And you can be sure the Washington Post will then put up an article about how you died sitting in your own filth and starved to death when you were an obviously at risk individual who should have had 24 hour care. And your nephew, of course outraged, will take those responsible to court. Respecting the wishes of a 98 year old man with dementia? Where was the State!? Completely incompetent, all of them!

This goes to the core of the issue the government isn't responsible for the choices I make and no competent court would hold them responsible. If a person isn't a danger to society they should be allowed to be left alone.

minorthreat1 said:And you can be sure the Washington Post will then put up an article about how you died sitting in your own filth and starved to death when you were an obviously at risk individual who should have had 24 hour care. And your nephew, of course outraged, will take those responsible to court. Respecting the wishes of a 98 year old man with dementia? Where was the State!? Completely incompetent, all of them!
Of course they will, because that is the type of story that draws readers.

Where is the story for the senior who breaks her hip, then is coerced into a nursing home by a social worker who thinks she needs help, and by her family who pressures her to go voluntarily before the state commits her involuntarily?

Slipping and falling doesn't necessarily mean you can't care for yourself. It may also mean that the floor was wet.

minorthreat1 said:

It would be wonderful if it were possible to provide 24 hour care for them in their own homes, but hiring 4 full time nurses per person and having thousands of dollars in equipment at each home just isn't feasible.

Most patients don't require much equipment and would be fine with a $10/h attendant who shows up every other hour. This could certainly be done for $70k/year. Letting health insurance companies or nursing home chains dictate how health care is delivered leads to poor care that is very expensive.

staci86 said:OLEOLEOLEO said:This thread should be preserved as "Exhibit A" of the absurdity of the anti-government absolutism espoused by several posters here. I wonder if these people think that mandatory education for minors is "Orwellian" and that six year-olds should be allowed to live on their own if they so desire. Or perhaps they hold the equally ridiculous belief that self-sufficiency has an "always upward" trajectory and that as centenarians they will be able to take care of themselves just like when they were twenty five.
If a centenarian has the mental capacity to make an informed decision about his own situation, then what do you care if he prefers his dignity?

Not all of these people are completely disconnected from the world. Do you honestly believe that a person with the normal mental capacity, and the legal capacity to commit crimes, enter into contracts, and sign informed consent papers for medical procedures, should be denied the right to choose the manner in which he or she lives?

What evidence do you have that this man meets any of these criteria??? The article says that those who know him think he would be better off staying in the assisted living facility rather than moving to a nursing home. Unfortunately, Virginia does not provide public assistance for assisted living. That is the issue. No one in this article is suggesting he would be just fine living alone. Whoever donated $60,000+ to keep him in assisted living probably doesn't think so either.

The article does not say what kind of medical treatment was necessary after this man fell off his bike. At that age even a minor injury and the stress of the ensuing treatment can easily incapacitate a formerly active individual both mentally and physically. Why hasn't anyone mentioned that? Instead a picture is painted of menacing totalitarian social workers forcibly institutionalizing a perfectly capable adult.

This will immediately be recognized as absurd by anyone who has experience working with old people. Please, continue to harp on this issue. I and most other reasonable, humane individuals, shudder at the thought of what would happen to penniless old folk with no family in a "libertarian utopia" without Social Security, social workers, or Medicare and Medicaid.

Just a point, while most states do have a Medicaid waiver that allows for assisted living services... the programs usually have long wait lists, and priority is almost always given to people already living in nursing homes that want to move back to "the community".

It's simply a situation where it is a needed service, but we aren't willing to spend the money. Many people will never voluntarily move to a nursing home. If that is all Medicaid covers, then they will likely never use the Medicaid benefit (a cost savings, though a failure of the program). But if Medicaid expands to include assisted living or living-at-home services... then you get what we call the "woodwork" effect. While it is clear that these services are more cost effective than nursing home care, you simply will get a lot more people applying for these services. If "we" want to allow people to age with dignity, then I fully support you lobbying your state representative to increase taxes and call your congressman to relax DRA requirements for budget neutrality in State Medicaid waivers.

But as it stands now, Medicaid is for people who have no other options. At 107, it's conceivable to think that you very well may have outlived all those options.

Oh c'mon, everyone is presuming that the man was ordered into said facility and held there against his will, and arguing their case based on that presumption. There is no evidence whatever of that position. Despite being 107 the man is able bodied and with a clear mind. The doors to the facility aren't locked, and when he moved there he had enough money to walk away if that was his choice. I submit it's a hell of a lot more likely that the social workers gave him a nudge toward the choice he accepted as being in his better interest.

OLEOLEOLEO said: I and most other reasonable, humane individuals, shudder at the thought of what would happen to penniless old folk with no family in a "libertarian utopia" without Social Security, social workers, or Medicare and Medicaid.

Perhaps less "old folk" would be penniless if they werent paying 70%+ of their income into taxes to pay for previous penniless old folks care.

Dont think its 70%? Add up federal income tax, SS tax, medicare tax, state income tax, state sales tax, property tax (Even if you rent), inflation tax (when government prints more money), tax on phantom interest (that was just keeping pace with inflation anyway), gasoline tax, corporate taxes built into every product you buy or service you pay for.

Perhaps if taxation wasn't so high, we would get to keep more of our own money and not wind up penniless.

WalStMonky said:How about medicaid pays for all the people over 100 that want assisted living, in any facility of their choice. That might raise overall Medicaid expenditures by 0.0000000000000001% even though they choose the places that serve steak and lobster puree for dinner.

Then the people who are 99 years old will start complaining. It would only cost an extra 0.0000000000000002% to add 99 year olds to the list. But then the 98 year olds will complain. It would only cost an extra 0.0000000000000004% if 98 years were added.

Hmm, this story is a repeat: <snip>He has health, if not wealth

Larry Haubner turned 105 this week, but faces an uncertain future

Date published: 6/16/2007

BY JIM HALL

Larry Haubner did everything right. He worked hard, lived clean and saved his money. And he has had a long and happy life to show for it.

But now his good health has become a liability. Those who care about him are worried. At 105, he has outlived his savings and may have to move.</snip>

<snip> But in December 2004, two cars were racing and one of them cut him off, he said. He banged against the curb and went sprawling onto the sidewalk.

"I laid on the curb for a while," he said.

He injured his knee and was taken to the emergency room. Later, when a physical therapist visited his apartment, she was alarmed at the way he was living. She called the Fredericksburg Department of Social Services, where a social worker arranged to move him to Greenfield.</snip>

linky

Mr. Haubner isn't going anywhere anytime soon..

Total Donations

34540.95
updated 07/02/09
linky