I don't know anything about the MoTech. Are they UL listed? I assume they are. Give us the price you're being quoted. I'm a very part time solar installer.. I have an EE degree and have done a bit of solar hot water and just completed a PV system for a home builder. The margins on this stuff in my area of TX are really high - like 40-60% is what I've seen...
Unless you have state and local rebates OR the cost of power is super high (Hawaii), then paybacks will typically exceed 15 years.
I did notice this blurb on the inverter you referenced: Ease of Installation & Lower Cost: Integrated DC/AC disconnect switch that eliminates the need for external DC and AC disconnects.
In my experience, this means nothing as external disconnects are required by code in most circumstances. I don't know the individual price. The Motech is part of a quote I got through 1bog.org. The installer is Gro Solar.
I am looking at a small system (2.5kW to 3kW) to eliminate the high tier usage. The high tier usage is $0.29 per kWh (SF bay area). Breakeven time appears to be 8 to 9 years.
CommandCenter2 said: When I posted a longer version of this ongoing saga on a different forum, people said the electric baseboard heat I have is stupid for anyone in the northeast (despite how prevalent it is in this state). Another suggested I spend the $15K getting natural gas equipment installed, trading one perpetually skyrocketing subscription plan for another. I'm starting to think that "human farming" comment I got awhile back was alot closer to the mark than I thought before... Direct electric heat is the most expensive way to generate heat. Your baseboard heaters are basically the same as a plug in portable heater. My guess is that central HVAC system would save you more money and be cheaper than installing solar, as well as go a lot further than a solar system to improving your home value. Do you just have window a/c units? A central system might also save you there as well. In general costs are heat pump<gas heat<electric heat. However, I live in a similar climate to harrisonburg and can tell you that the heat pump sucks big time in the coldest months (my electric bill was much higher in the winter than in the hottest months of the summer)--due to the heatpump not working well at sub 30 temperatures, requiring the use of the backup electric strips in the system (which are no more efficient than your basebord heaters). If I were getting a brand new system I would buy a heat pump with gas (not electric) auxillary heat. This way you get the benefit of the heat pump in the cool months and gas heat in the coldest. One other caveat is that if you only turn on the baseboard heaters in one or two rooms at a time, this might be cheaper than a central system. Many of us on FWF have discussed a similar strategy to turning off our central heat systems and only using a space heater in the one or two rooms we use.
Mickie3 said: psychoslowmatic said: This system might be a good fit for you, if you can retrofit air ducts on your house easily. It's a heat pump optimized for cold weather with electric backup. Might be worth more investigation. http://www.gotohallowell.com
Looked at their site as there are so many scammers out there. Comparing that unit to one I have installed in my home (Carrier):
SEER HSPF
14 9.7 Hallowell (both numbers are up to)
19 9.5 Carrier Infinity Series (both numbers are up to)
The units in the aforementioned ads are only marginally, if any, better than what others have available, not the cure for all things as their ads say.
Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio (SEER) - The SEER rating of a unit is the cooling output in Btu (British thermal unit) during a typical cooling-season divided by the total electric energy input in watt-hours during the same period. The higher the unit's SEER rating the more energy efficient it is. ENERGY STAR qualified Central Air Conditioners must have a SEER of at least 14.
HSPF (Heating Seasonal Performance Factor) HSPF is an abbreviation for Heating Seasonal Performance Factor. It is the most commonly used measure of the heating efficiency of heat pumps. (The cooling efficiency of a heat pump is measured by its SEER.) Technically speaking, the HSPF is a heat pump's estimated seasonal heating output in BTUs divided by the amount of energy that it consumes in watt-hours.
Yeah the numbers aren't spectacular, and I'm not a true believer in their tech, but it does seem interesting and possibly useful for Pennsylvania. The special thing about their unit is that they have a second compressor. Most heat pumps can't draw any heat out of the air when it gets below +20, but the second compressor means that it can draw heat out down to -20. Below +20 for another heat pump, or -20 for this one, it's running on 100% electric resistance heating, which is equally efficient to the electric baseboard the person's running now. It's up the homeowner to figure out if the increased efficiency at milder temperatures is worth the cost of putting it in.
I added a high effic heat pump to the house with a high effic gas backup furnace as it made more sense to do it that way in this area (and I have NO southern exposure due to houses, trees, etc.)
Bottom Line is homeowner has to cut through all the hype and BS and pick the best option for them.
biomedeng said: CommandCenter2 said: When I posted a longer version of this ongoing saga on a different forum, people said the electric baseboard heat I have is stupid for anyone in the northeast (despite how prevalent it is in this state). Another suggested I spend the $15K getting natural gas equipment installed, trading one perpetually skyrocketing subscription plan for another. I'm starting to think that "human farming" comment I got awhile back was alot closer to the mark than I thought before... Direct electric heat is the most expensive way to generate heat. Your baseboard heaters are basically the same as a plug in portable heater. My guess is that central HVAC system would save you more money and be cheaper than installing solar, as well as go a lot further than a solar system to improving your home value. Do you just have window a/c units? A central system might also save you there as well. In general costs are heat pump<gas heat<electric heat. However, I live in a similar climate to harrisonburg and can tell you that the heat pump sucks big time in the coldest months (my electric bill was much higher in the winter than in the hottest months of the summer)--due to the heatpump not working well at sub 30 temperatures, requiring the use of the backup electric strips in the system (which are no more efficient than your basebord heaters). If I were getting a brand new system I would buy a heat pump with gas (not electric) auxillary heat. This way you get the benefit of the heat pump in the cool months and gas heat in the coldest. One other caveat is that if you only turn on the baseboard heaters in one or two rooms at a time, this might be cheaper than a central system. Many of us on FWF have discussed a similar strategy to turning off our central heat systems and only using a space heater in the one or two rooms we use. What works in one area might not work in another. We live in a pretty temperate climate (SF Bay Area) and have two ductless mini-split systems, each powered by an electric heat pump/condensor. One mini-split system is for the bedrooms; the other is for the living/dining and family rooms. Our house is fairly small, around 1500 sq ft. Since we don't use heat or A/C very much and since we effectively have dual zoning heating/cooling, our solar PV system has thus far resulted in us paying zero heating/cooling costs for our home. Of course the remote thermostats that control the system for each room have timers.
There was another advantage with our set up compared with using gas. For our utility (PG&E), the electricity baseline amount is higher when the source of heat is electrical than when the source of heat is gas. Combined with our TOU plan, the higher baseline amount helps us to lower our electricity costs down, increasing the positive impact of our solar PV system. So the combination of a temperate climate, our solar PV system, and electric-powered heat pumps/condensors works well for us. Of course, a potential concerns is cost of the heating/cooling system. Our house design doesn't allow for easy duct installation, so the ductless mini-split system was a good choice for us.
The cost makes a lot more sense for those who use a heat pump (possibly with condensor) to heat/cool a single room. Those dedicated units tend to be more efficient than mini-split systems that serve multiple rooms.
Need more information. Can you give me specific panels and what they cost? Generally you need to consider these things: 1) Are they panels of the same type (silicon / thin film)? 2) What is the price per watt? 3) What is the warranty period? Is the warranty type the same? 4) Financial strength of the company producing them?
dcg9381 said: Need more information. Can you give me specific panels and what they cost? Generally you need to consider these things: 1) Are they panels of the same type (silicon / thin film)? 2) What is the price per watt? 3) What is the warranty period? Is the warranty type the same? 4) Financial strength of the company producing them? They are both polycrystalline with the same 90% @10yr and 80% @25yr. Not sure of the financial strength. The panels are
DelSolar D6P225WA3E Canadian Solar CS6P-230PX
There's also YingLi which I can select. I don't have the model for that one but I guess it will be the 220W or 230W.
I am quoted per watt so the price per panel does not matter to me.
scanchain said: dcg9381 said: Need more information. Can you give me specific panels and what they cost? Generally you need to consider these things: 1) Are they panels of the same type (silicon / thin film)? 2) What is the price per watt? 3) What is the warranty period? Is the warranty type the same? 4) Financial strength of the company producing them? They are both polycrystalline with the same 90% @10yr and 80% @25yr. Not sure of the financial strength. The panels are
DelSolar D6P225WA3E Canadian Solar CS6P-230PX
There's also YingLi which I can select. I don't have the model for that one but I guess it will be the 220W or 230W.
I am quoted per watt so the price per panel does not matter to me.
How much are they quoting per watt? Installed? Installation warrantied as well?
jimmyzshack said: If anyone is Louisiana is reading this...Louisiana has the best tax CREDIT (50%) in the nation.
I am thinking about taking advantage of this and am trying to figure out the logistics of financing a solar system. I just bought my house in July and have been doing some energy efficiency projects since then, I think by next year I will be in striking distance of having the house at maximum efficiency and will be looking at installing solar PV to compliment the solar hot water I already have. According to the estimate from 1BOG that I have enough roof space to do a ~5 kilowatt system and such a system will cost around 30 kilodollars.
I am wondering how I should finance the $24K for the period between when I pay for the system and when I get my money back from LA and the IRS. The three options I am considering are either waiting until I can save an extra $24K (probably 2013 or 2014), putting it on a 0% credit card or BT offer, or refinancing the whole house (currently I am on a 15 year 3.75% fixed rate so this might be attractive if rates dropped to 3.25%) then either using the rebate checks to either pay down the loan or otherwise invest.
I ran the NPV for these scenarios assuming a 2% rate of electricity inflation (which I think is fairly conservative) and only looking at the electricity generated over the life of the loan and it seems to make sense either way. Throwing it onto the loan makes more sense if I assume a higher cost of capital.
Does anyone have experience with these tax rebates at the state or federal level, is there anyway to accelerate receiving it like they did with the home buyers tax credit or do you have to wait for the next year? I would prefer to just pay for it and own the panels outright just to save myself the hassle of dealing with the bank, but if rates drop low enough I will probably go for a refi anyway.
So, had to do a shoutout thanks to FWF. This last summer, this thread inspired me to look into solar lease and rebate programs in California. My research led me to http://www.gridalternatives.org/ ... as a low-income family, it turned out we qualified for a free PV grid-tied system covering 75% of our average electric bill. Recently, our system was finally installed! Total cost: $15 for HOA approval of plans, ~ $200 for lunch for the volunteers for two days. Time to payback: about 3 months! (Actual cost of system and installation I think is estimated at about $28,000.) We own the system, but it comes with a 10-year warranty and maintenance plan. Especially if you are lower income, I encourage you to look into this (and other) programs (we also received a free swamp cooler and swimming pool pump).
I live in Louisiana and we're thinking about biting. The real problem is the upfront cost. If we put a system on that covers about 75% of our total electricity usage, we're looking at 65k or so. I'm thinking the best way to do is to work out some sort of payment plan so I can put the entire 61k on a 2% or 5% credit card. If we bought the system in October/November, then it'd only be 3 months or so before getting the money back. With the credits, we'd pay 11k out of pocket. If we can get the CC payments to work, we'd end up getting 3k or so back (or 1.2k on the 2%) and so it'd be 9k or 10k out of pocket. The company we'd be buying from guarantees the energy production numbers for 10 years, but at the current rates we'd save $135/mo or $1600/year. So if we ended up with 10k out of pocket, we're looking at 6.25 years for the cells to break even.
Given that the company could go out of business, I'm still not sure it's worth it. I don't know how the hell anyone in this country justifies solar panels. I'm getting 80% of the cost back with credits. Maybe the prices I've been quoted are too high? We're looking at 32 Sunpower 327-watt panels and 2 inverters for 61k. Does anyone have comps in terms of pricing?
Note, as an installer I'm seeing major manufacturer (Sharp) panels in the $1.10 / watt range for discontinued panels. UL listed panels from China, under $1/watt.
Although it could be a market dip, long term, I'm not so sure... At $1/watt, it's pretty good payback even on a federal tax credit only...
Just watch your total install cost.. As typical margins can be 50-60% on top.
kantscholar said: I live in Louisiana and we're thinking about biting. The real problem is the upfront cost. If we put a system on that covers about 75% of our total electricity usage, we're looking at 65k or so. I'm thinking the best way to do is to work out some sort of payment plan so I can put the entire 61k on a 2% or 5% credit card. If we bought the system in October/November, then it'd only be 3 months or so before getting the money back. With the credits, we'd pay 11k out of pocket. If we can get the CC payments to work, we'd end up getting 3k or so back (or 1.2k on the 2%) and so it'd be 9k or 10k out of pocket. The company we'd be buying from guarantees the energy production numbers for 10 years, but at the current rates we'd save $135/mo or $1600/year. So if we ended up with 10k out of pocket, we're looking at 6.25 years for the cells to break even.
Given that the company could go out of business, I'm still not sure it's worth it. I don't know how the hell anyone in this country justifies solar panels. I'm getting 80% of the cost back with credits. Maybe the prices I've been quoted are too high? We're looking at 32 Sunpower 327-watt panels and 2 inverters for 61k. Does anyone have comps in terms of pricing?
65K????? Are you serious? SunPower panels are only sold and installed by their dealers, so you are being quoted premium prices for their hardware and installation, at a minimum. Checked into the quality of their product? Gotten more than this one quote?
Don't get hung up on the highest output per panel, you are paying premium prices if you do. If you do 40 / 275 watt units, there may be an additional inverter, but they are not THAT expensive. As of today, Costco has kits that can be used for same size at under 26k for same wattage as you are being quoted.
Go back in this thread and check out some of the suppliers that are listed for current pricing of components. A good roofing company can install the panels and a good electrician can hook them up for you. This is NOT rocket science, get some experienced folks and you should do fine and all for wayyyyyyyyyy less than that price.
As for the sizing of what you really need to do 75% of your consumption, see if there is a local engineering group around that does NOT sell the hardware but does green project management planning. They can save you a bunch, if you need the guidance.
Old Maxim: NEVER ask a salesman what you need if you want an honest answer.
sla0011 said: jimmyzshack said: If anyone is Louisiana is reading this...Louisiana has the best tax CREDIT (50%) in the nation.
I am thinking about taking advantage of this and am trying to figure out the logistics of financing a solar system. I just bought my house in July and have been doing some energy efficiency projects since then, I think by next year I will be in striking distance of having the house at maximum efficiency and will be looking at installing solar PV to compliment the solar hot water I already have. According to the estimate from 1BOG that I have enough roof space to do a ~5 kilowatt system and such a system will cost around 30 kilodollars.
I am wondering how I should finance the $24K for the period between when I pay for the system and when I get my money back from LA and the IRS. The three options I am considering are either waiting until I can save an extra $24K (probably 2013 or 2014), putting it on a 0% credit card or BT offer, or refinancing the whole house (currently I am on a 15 year 3.75% fixed rate so this might be attractive if rates dropped to 3.25%) then either using the rebate checks to either pay down the loan or otherwise invest.
I ran the NPV for these scenarios assuming a 2% rate of electricity inflation (which I think is fairly conservative) and only looking at the electricity generated over the life of the loan and it seems to make sense either way. Throwing it onto the loan makes more sense if I assume a higher cost of capital.
Does anyone have experience with these tax rebates at the state or federal level, is there anyway to accelerate receiving it like they did with the home buyers tax credit or do you have to wait for the next year? I would prefer to just pay for it and own the panels outright just to save myself the hassle of dealing with the bank, but if rates drop low enough I will probably go for a refi anyway. i am working on solar for several of my LA properties. at least 2 companies offer gap financing, either 12 or 18 months, with no interest or payments. costs 8-9% on top of the system cost, but they will roll in that finance cost, so w/ the 80% it ends up being very little.
i am seeing installed costs around $4.50-$5/W by the way, pretty reasonable. i'd love to make the arrangements to buy a couple pallets and GC it out myself, but i already have enough on my plate. besides, $5k after rebates versus $2k and dealing with shifty subs, filing the tax docs, etc and getting no gap financing - i'll just have the pros do it.
FYI - i am looking at Joule and South Coast Solar.
My quote is from Joule as well. I think all of the Louisiana costs are inflated given the various tax credits.
In all fairness to the rep, I was the one who wanted to go with 75% usage coverage. Given the tax credits, going with a larger system makes sense if whole thing is a financially advantageous move.
kantscholar said: My quote is from Joule as well. I think all of the Louisiana costs are inflated given the various tax credits.
In all fairness to the rep, I was the one who wanted to go with 75% usage coverage. Given the tax credits, going with a larger system makes sense if whole thing is a financially advantageous move.
solatUS says he is in LA as well and is seeing prices of 4.5 - 5 per KWH and you have a quote for 6.5. Defend the dealer and get ripped if you must, but please don't come back whining when you finally figure out that you got taken like you did with the movers.
kmsandrbs said: So, had to do a shoutout thanks to FWF. This last summer, this thread inspired me to look into solar lease and rebate programs in California. My research led me to http://www.gridalternatives.org/ ... as a low-income family, it turned out we qualified for a free PV grid-tied system covering 75% of our average electric bill. Recently, our system was finally installed! Total cost: $15 for HOA approval of plans, ~ $200 for lunch for the volunteers for two days. Time to payback: about 3 months! (Actual cost of system and installation I think is estimated at about $28,000.) We own the system, but it comes with a 10-year warranty and maintenance plan. Especially if you are lower income, I encourage you to look into this (and other) programs (we also received a free swamp cooler and swimming pool pump).
You're a "low income family" which lives in a subdivision with an HOA and you have your own swimming pool? And people wonder why we think the poor should pay more taxes. Let me guess, you have HBO AND Cinemax too...
kantscholar said: My quote is from Joule as well. I think all of the Louisiana costs are inflated given the various tax credits.
In all fairness to the rep, I was the one who wanted to go with 75% usage coverage. Given the tax credits, going with a larger system makes sense if whole thing is a financially advantageous move.
And is that 75% of your current usage? Is there any way you could start by reducing your average consumption first like maybe updating your HVAC, appliances, water heater, etc? Could reduce the total overall cost of the project while also refreshing needed appliances.
solarUS said: i am seeing installed costs around $4.50-$5/W by the way, pretty reasonable. i'd love to make the arrangements to buy a couple pallets and GC it out myself, but i already have enough on my plate. besides, $5k after rebates versus $2k and dealing with shifty subs, filing the tax docs, etc and getting no gap financing - i'll just have the pros do it.
Is that quote from Joule or South Coast? South Coast was more expensive than Joule for me. Do you have any details on the system and how you got that pricing for $4.5-$5/w?
Mickie3 said: solatUS says he is in LA as well and is seeing prices of 4.5 - 5 per KWH and you have a quote for 6.5. Defend the dealer and get ripped if you must, but please don't come back whining when you finally figure out that you got taken like you did with the movers.
Take a deep breath. No one is "defending the dealer". I merely mentioned that I wanted to triple the size of the system. Standard FWF principle at work. If you can buy X for Y but get 3X for significantly less than 3Y (and you can make use of all of 3x), then you should go get 3X instead of just X. I understand that the dealers are trying to make money and they make it by selling systems to me.
mwa423 said: You're a "low income family" which lives in a subdivision with an HOA and you have your own swimming pool? And people wonder why we think the poor should pay more taxes. Let me guess, you have HBO AND Cinemax too...
I don't know about the subsidy in question, but in many cases, 'low income' might mean 2.5x poverty, or even be defined as below median income. A lot of the major pharmaceutical companies' pro bono programs use 2.5x poverty, which works out to mid $20ks for a single person.
mwa423 said: kmsandrbs said: So, had to do a shoutout thanks to FWF. This last summer, this thread inspired me to look into solar lease and rebate programs in California. My research led me to http://www.gridalternatives.org/ ... as a low-income family, it turned out we qualified for a free PV grid-tied system covering 75% of our average electric bill. Recently, our system was finally installed! Total cost: $15 for HOA approval of plans, ~ $200 for lunch for the volunteers for two days. Time to payback: about 3 months! (Actual cost of system and installation I think is estimated at about $28,000.) We own the system, but it comes with a 10-year warranty and maintenance plan. Especially if you are lower income, I encourage you to look into this (and other) programs (we also received a free swamp cooler and swimming pool pump).
You're a "low income family" which lives in a subdivision with an HOA and you have your own swimming pool? And people wonder why we think the poor should pay more taxes. Let me guess, you have HBO AND Cinemax too...
Thanks for playing the assumption game and totally losing!
We don't even have cable. Or a home phone line. Or an iPhone. Of course, part of that is related to being on Fatwallet and understanding costs and has nothing to do with income levels (I am sure there are people making 5x what we are who also do not have those things). We actually did not want a home with a swimming pool (and my preference would have been to not be in a subdivision, either) but fell into a fantastic deal, and are paying significantly less per month on our PITI than we were on rent.
We could start a debate ('cause my assumption is that we have significantly divergent views of fair taxation), but I don't think the solar thread is the place to do so.
Many of the deals for rebates in this thread are only of use to higher income folk, as significant discretionary income is needed to make large up front purchases that have multiple years before payoff. However, as my example shows, other programs may be available for people without those resources. For those who can, utilizing them is likely a significantly beneficial financial move, regardless of whether they have cable or not.
kmsandrbs said: mwa423 said: kmsandrbs said: So, had to do a shoutout thanks to FWF. This last summer, this thread inspired me to look into solar lease and rebate programs in California. My research led me to http://www.gridalternatives.org/ ... as a low-income family, it turned out we qualified for a free PV grid-tied system covering 75% of our average electric bill. Recently, our system was finally installed! Total cost: $15 for HOA approval of plans, ~ $200 for lunch for the volunteers for two days. Time to payback: about 3 months! (Actual cost of system and installation I think is estimated at about $28,000.) We own the system, but it comes with a 10-year warranty and maintenance plan. Especially if you are lower income, I encourage you to look into this (and other) programs (we also received a free swamp cooler and swimming pool pump).
You're a "low income family" which lives in a subdivision with an HOA and you have your own swimming pool? And people wonder why we think the poor should pay more taxes. Let me guess, you have HBO AND Cinemax too...
Thanks for playing the assumption game and totally losing!
We don't even have cable. Or a home phone line. Or an iPhone. Of course, part of that is related to being on Fatwallet and understanding costs and has nothing to do with income levels (I am sure there are people making 5x what we are who also do not have those things). We actually did not want a home with a swimming pool (and my preference would have been to not be in a subdivision, either) but fell into a fantastic deal, and are paying significantly less per month on our PITI than we were on rent.
We could start a debate ('cause my assumption is that we have significantly divergent views of fair taxation), but I don't think the solar thread is the place to do so.
Many of the deals for rebates in this thread are only of use to higher income folk, as significant discretionary income is needed to make large up front purchases that have multiple years before payoff. However, as my example shows, other programs may be available for people without those resources. For those who can, utilizing them is likely a significantly beneficial financial move, regardless of whether they have cable or not. it isnt cable, it's HBO. haha
seriously though - people dont love it when you brag about how little something cost, when their taxes subsidized 100% of its cost, and you VERY likely arent even needy. looks like with 3+ people, you could make 40-80k and still qualify....and it looks like they dont even assess your retirement accounts OR savings. hell, i bet they even look at your AGI which can be articifially lowered by a number of techniques/offsets.
there's FWF-esque, then there's just mooching. I'm not saying you are the latter, but I imagine nobody is gonna pat you on the back for this either.
as for the "large up-front costs" - you can finance solar pretty easily...or if you are lower income, there are plans where you can rent the equipment and reap the benefits w/o the up-front cost. seems like just giving away systems to anyone below 80% of MEDIAN INCOME is just excessively charitable...not to mention kinda arbitrary.
mwa423 said: kmsandrbs said: So, had to do a shoutout thanks to FWF. This last summer, this thread inspired me to look into solar lease and rebate programs in California. My research led me to http://www.gridalternatives.org/ ... as a low-income family, it turned out we qualified for a free PV grid-tied system covering 75% of our average electric bill. Recently, our system was finally installed! Total cost: $15 for HOA approval of plans, ~ $200 for lunch for the volunteers for two days. Time to payback: about 3 months! (Actual cost of system and installation I think is estimated at about $28,000.) We own the system, but it comes with a 10-year warranty and maintenance plan. Especially if you are lower income, I encourage you to look into this (and other) programs (we also received a free swamp cooler and swimming pool pump).
You're a "low income family" which lives in a subdivision with an HOA and you have your own swimming pool? And people wonder why we think the poor should pay more taxes. Let me guess, you have HBO AND Cinemax too... Whether or not "low income" is an appropriate label for his family in your mind, as long as he fits the requirements of the given solar rebate program and there is no deception involved, then I see no problem with using the rebate program to get a break on pricing and whatever other benefits it offers.
Standing up for your principles is great, much less so when you make assumptions about someone else and think they should act as you say you would. That kind of rushing to judgment belongs elsewhere.
glxpass said: Whether or not "low income" is an appropriate label for his family in your mind, as long as he fits the requirements of the given solar rebate program and there is no deception involved, then I see no problem with using the rebate program to get a break on pricing and whatever other benefits it offers.
Standing up for your principles is great, much less so when you make assumptions about someone else and think they should act as you say you would. That kind of rushing to judgment belongs elsewhere.
I'm not arguing with taking advantage of any bonus that you can get (whether it be income based, based on association, etc.). If somebody comes knocking on my door offering to install a free solar power system, I'm going to add them to my Christmas card list and have a solar system too. If Government Motors parks a Volt in my driveway and offers me the keys, no questions asked, I'm not going to say no, (insert example of politically motivated program here along with my acceptance).
That being said, while being willing to take advantage of these programs (if I qualified) doesn't mean that I don't object to their existence. If anything, free solar power systems for people who (with a minimum of information) appear to be living a middle class lifestyle is a major detriment because it gives the people paying for these programs (the taxpayers) an even darker view of need based programs.
mwa423 said: glxpass said: Whether or not "low income" is an appropriate label for his family in your mind, as long as he fits the requirements of the given solar rebate program and there is no deception involved, then I see no problem with using the rebate program to get a break on pricing and whatever other benefits it offers.
Standing up for your principles is great, much less so when you make assumptions about someone else and think they should act as you say you would. That kind of rushing to judgment belongs elsewhere.
I'm not arguing with taking advantage of any bonus that you can get (whether it be income based, based on association, etc.). If somebody comes knocking on my door offering to install a free solar power system, I'm going to add them to my Christmas card list and have a solar system too. If Government Motors parks a Volt in my driveway and offers me the keys, no questions asked, I'm not going to say no, (insert example of politically motivated program here along with my acceptance).
That being said, while being willing to take advantage of these programs (if I qualified) doesn't mean that I don't object to their existence. If anything, free solar power systems for people who (with a minimum of information) appear to be living a middle class lifestyle is a major detriment because it gives the people paying for these programs (the taxpayers) an even darker view of need based programs. I appreciate your response and understand what you're saying; I just think that either criticizing or questioning a member for taking advantage of the rebate program (something which you admit you'd do too if the opportunity were available) and debating whether the rebate programs should exist belong elsewhere.
solarUS said: seriously though - people dont love it when you brag about how little something cost, when their taxes subsidized 100% of its cost, and you VERY likely arent even needy. looks like with 3+ people, you could make 40-80k and still qualify....and it looks like they dont even assess your retirement accounts OR savings. hell, i bet they even look at your AGI which can be articifially lowered by a number of techniques/offsets.
there's FWF-esque, then there's just mooching. I'm not saying you are the latter, but I imagine nobody is gonna pat you on the back for this either.
as for the "large up-front costs" - you can finance solar pretty easily...or if you are lower income, there are plans where you can rent the equipment and reap the benefits w/o the up-front cost. seems like just giving away systems to anyone below 80% of MEDIAN INCOME is just excessively charitable...not to mention kinda arbitrary.
Luckily, I'm not looking for a pat on the back, though yes, I feel pretty good about getting an essentially free system. solarUS said: That being said, while being willing to take advantage of these programs (if I qualified) doesn't mean that I don't object to their existence. If anything, free solar power systems for people who (with a minimum of information) appear to be living a middle class lifestyle is a major detriment because it gives the people paying for these programs (the taxpayers) an even darker view of need based programs. If FWF can no longer be home to sharing programs financed by taxpayer dollars because some people might get a "darker view" of those programs, we will lose a lot of helpful information on the forum. I do understand where you are coming from, as there are many tax-based programs I also disagree with. However, I agree with glxpass that this is not the place for that debate.
For our 5KW solar PV system, located in the SF Bay Area, we ended up with the following figures for our 12-month true-up period that ended January 6, 2010:
Net electricity cost: -$220.37. Note that the cost doesn't include an approximately $9/month charge for what IMO amounts to the privilege of being on the grid. Our utility doesn't let any of our credit apply to this monthly amount, nor does it allow one to roll their credit over to the next year; hence the word "true-up."
Electricity consumed: 10,380 Kwh
Electricity generated by PV System: 8,960 Kwh
Electricity required from grid: 1,420 Kwh
The energy measurements were from January 1, 2009 through December 31, 2009, which is pretty close to the true-up period. You can therefore see the effect of our TOU (time-of-use) schedule (where we pay more for electricity during peak hours than during non-peak hours) on our electricity energy cost.
ETA: further cost details. ---------------------------------------------------------- end of prior post-------------------------------------------------------
I've been remiss in reporting our information for the last couple of years, I.e. 2010 and 2011, and don't have the precise figures at hand, but we still had net true-up credits in both years, meaning that the $ of electricity our PV system generated were greater than the $ of the electricity we consumed. As in previous years, the Kwh our PV system generated were less than the Kwh we consumed, but thanks to our TOU plan, where electricity is more expensive during peak hours (when the most Kwh are generated from our panels) than during non-peak hours, we had a net credit. Because the net credit was in $, not Kwh, we didn't receive any compensation for that credit.
We caught a bad break in January 2012, although it could have been much worse: our Fronius IG 5100 inverter (which coverts DC power from the panels to AC) failed right at the beginning of the month. I hadn't been monitoring our system for a while and thus didn't even notice there was a problem until at the end of January when i belatedly brought up the monitoring software, which doesn't reside on my work PCs. Oops.
Not only was there almost a full month of no energy production, our inverter had a 5-year warranty. Our PV system was installed in late 2006. I called Fronius and was relieved to find out that the warranty is actually 5 years and a few weeks, starting at the time the inverter is received by the distributor, from whom our installer obtained the unit. It turned out we had another week or two before the warranty would have expired. (A parenthetical note: since we had our solar PV system installed, marketing considerations have caused the typical inverter warranty to be much longer than ours. With extended warranty options, it might be possible to have an inverter whose warranty period matches the warranty period of the panels.)
We thus managed to dodge a several $K bullet, although the warranty period of the replacement inverter will only be a year. The replacement is a refurbished unit that has the most current design improvements. (I'm unsure of the specifics.) The next challenge was that our solar installer seemed out of business, so I had to find someone who could replace the malfunctioning inverter with the new one. To my dismay, I discovered most of the solar PV installers in my area would only maintain systems they had installed. I caught another break, though: one of the persons I spoke with knew my installer and gave me his current contact information! Although my installer had moved and now focused mostly on other solar energy projects than PV systems (for whatever reason, I couldn't find a change of address e-mail he thought he had sent me), he ended up replacing my inverter, and didn't charge me beyond the $150 fee that Fronius pays its affiliated installers to replace inverters.
Lessons learned:
1. Since the inverter is the weak point of a solar PV system, get the longest extended manufacturer warranty you can. 2. Monitor your PV system regularly to ensure it's working OK. 3. Make sure you keep in periodic touch with your installer, especially if it's a one-person company. .
Of course people stick their heads in the trough when government malfeasance results in freebies. I don't know why what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander, but many on this board fee entitled to criticize others who's situation is different from their own - myself included. Look at the henpecking here.
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