I had 3 messages from a sheriff's deputy over the last 2 weeks (I was on vacation) who has been trying to serve me with a subpoena. When I spoke to him he stated that an ex-client of mine (developer) was being sued by a condo owner. We were the architects on the project, a conversion of an old factory to loft style condos. I am not being sued, just asked for information apparently, but as these things go that could change at any time.
My question: What is my obligation to facilitate a meeting so that I can receive these papers? I haven't started purposely avoiding him yet but I am considering it. I don't think we did anything wrong, but in my limited experience with the legal system everyone looses in a lawsuit. Will he eventually just nail the papers to my door and consider the job done? Would I gain anything by stretching the process out as long as possible?
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posted: Jul. 9, 2009 @ 1:03p
PolarDude
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jul. 9, 2009 @ 1:05p
You could ignore it, and wait to see if they file a motion to compel. You could also state your hourly fee is $3500/hr, and you need payment in advance.
orphanis
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jul. 9, 2009 @ 1:07p
Very likely the fact that you spoke with "him" limits your options. At this point I would rather receive the papers than go hiding
What does your client contract say about litigation and legal fees?
If there's an indemnity then I'd go ahead and schedule a deposition and/or provide documents as requested, and bill the research and travel costs back to your client.
If not, well, now you have something to add to your standard agreement.
oopsz said: What does your client contract say about litigation and legal fees?
If there's an indemnity then I'd go ahead and schedule a deposition and/or provide documents as requested, and bill the research and travel costs back to your client.
If not, well, now you have something to add to your standard agreement.
Our proposal at the time of this project (August 2003) was very likely lacking in that type of language. We've gotten better since then.
PolarDude said: You could ignore it, and wait to see if they file a motion to compel. You could also state your hourly fee is $3500/hr, and you need payment in advance.
You can't really ask the plantiff to pay for your time when you're served a subpoena, can you?
YoungElvis said: PolarDude said: You could ignore it, and wait to see if they file a motion to compel. You could also state your hourly fee is $3500/hr, and you need payment in advance.
You can't really ask the plantiff to pay for your time when you're served a subpoena, can you?
Sure you CAN. But you may get laughed at. Or you may get rich! PROFIT!
kwest said: YoungElvis said: PolarDude said: You could ignore it, and wait to see if they file a motion to compel. You could also state your hourly fee is $3500/hr, and you need payment in advance.
You can't really ask the plantiff to pay for your time when you're served a subpoena, can you?
Sure you CAN. But you may get laughed at. Or you may get rich! PROFIT!
I would assume you did your work through your own LLC or Corporation. And, that the "client" contracted with your company and not with you. Hence, the subpoena should be going to your company and not to you! The distinction is important in that you want your company to be sued and not you individually. One of the purposes of forming a corporation is to shield yourself from personal liability.
Who is your agent of service for your corporation? It looks like you may have made yourself the agent which is something which you should never do and you should immediately get fixed.
I would also assume you have a multi-million dollar "errors and omissions" policy to cover any possible lawsuit. You might want to inform your insurance company of the subpoena. (so that their lawyers could get involved.)
Hence, I would assume you personally have nothing to worry about.
Liability insurance, yes. Maybe not 'multi million dollar' but hopefully high enough to cover. I will absolutely notify the folks in the pre-claim department when I get the subpoena in hand.
The company was incorporated, although it's hard to say if it happened before or after this project. I'll have to check the records...
ppatin
Focused.
posted: Jul. 9, 2009 @ 2:48p
Spend the money to get advice from a real lawyer.
LH2004
Frivolous Member
posted: Jul. 9, 2009 @ 2:52p
BradMajors said: I would assume you did your work through your own LLC or Corporation. And, that the "client" contracted with your company and not with you. Hence, the subpoena should be going to your company and not to you! The distinction is important in that you want your company to be sued and not you individually. One of the purposes of forming a corporation is to shield yourself from personal liability.He's not being sued. He's a witness. The fact that he may not be personally liable for something doesn't mean he doesn't have relevant information to testify about.
Anyway, if he is ever sued for some type of malpractice, he likely would be personally liable for his own acts.
codename47
Senior Member - 3K
posted: Jul. 9, 2009 @ 3:24p
Read it. If you don't want to answer it, file a motion to quash.
I don't think we did anything wrong, but in my limited experience with the legal system everyone looses in a lawsuit You need to do some more reading. I've felt quite successful in my legal experiences.
Would I gain anything by stretching the process out as long as possible? Time to read over the suit, ascertain what they are asking and what you may have to provide, besides, you can't serve what you can't find. Again you can set some time up in the future to receive these papers, but you don't have to do it today.
Having worked in site development, when crap hits the fan everyone gets subpoenaed. Even if it was a wall that fell down and all you did was design the sidewalk on the other side of the project, your company will get served papers. You are a business. It doesn't make any sense to keep trying to dodge this. You will want to make sure it gets taken care of professionally so it won't affect the image of your company.
Once you receive the subpoena you can figure out what went wrong, gather and review your records to determine if the problem was at all on your end. You will need the documentation to deflect the issue to whichever company is at fault anyways especially if you were the prime on the project.
As far as how to proceed from there, you should contact your liability insurance company. They should provide legal council since if you are found at fault they will be paying. They will want to provide you with the best advice (and often representation) possible.
LH2004 said: BradMajors said: I would assume you did your work through your own LLC or Corporation. And, that the "client" contracted with your company and not with you. Hence, the subpoena should be going to your company and not to you! The distinction is important in that you want your company to be sued and not you individually. One of the purposes of forming a corporation is to shield yourself from personal liability. Anyway, if he is ever sued for some type of malpractice, he likely would be personally liable for his own acts. The contract is with his Corporation and not with him, no one can sue him. OP can not know why he is being subpoenaed until he reads the subpoena. A process server would say anything in order to get him to accept the papers.
LH2004
Frivolous Member
posted: Jul. 10, 2009 @ 1:30a
BradMajors said: LH2004 said: Anyway, if he is ever sued for some type of malpractice, he likely would be personally liable for his own acts.The contract is with his Corporation and not with him, no one can sue him.Sadly, that's not the way it works, and wishing it was isn't going to help.
The fact that he's not a party to the contract (if that's the case) means that he can't be sued for breach of contract. That's it.
If he didn't do his job as an architect up to professional standards, then he, personally, will be jointly and severally liable to anyone harmed by his negligence, including not just the owner but, for example, someone walking down the street who was injured by the building's collapse. That person doesn't care who signed the contract; they may be able to sue the corporation too, but that doesn't stop them from suing the architect. He may be entitled to indemnification from his corporation, but that won't do much good.
The typical medical practice is a corporation with maybe a few thousand dollars' worth of equipment, maybe a little cash on hand, some accounts receivable but plenty of payables and debt. Do you think doctors are just being stupid when they pay tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars to get millions in personal medical malpractice insurance -- that they could just let any plaintiff walk off with their exam tables and EKG machines, and that would be that?
marvholly
Senior Member
posted: Jul. 10, 2009 @ 3:54a
If I am reading this correctly the work in question was done in 2003. It is now 2009 - about 6 years. Most companies only keep records for a limited amount of time; usually 3-5 years. Even the IRS only suggests 3 years unless they are claimin fraud-then no limit.
marvholly said: If I am reading this correctly the work in question was done in 2003. It is now 2009 - about 6 years. Most companies only keep records for a limited amount of time; usually 3-5 years. Even the IRS only suggests 3 years unless they are claimin fraud-then no limit.
I doubt the OP even still has anything relevant.
Any business that only keeps records for 3-5 years is asking for trouble...
The IRS wants you to only keep 3 years so that when they claim fraud (and some type of fraud seems to always be there) you don't have a leg to stand on.
On a professional project level, I would always keep a file of records. Maybe not the McDonald's receipt that was charged back, but the contract, meeting notes, and final design approval with plans. In the "digital era," that is not exactly difficult.
You do not have any "obligation" to be available to be served with a subpoena. If they manage to serve you, you do have an obligation to appear in court.
A friend of mine in California was subpoena'ed for a lawsuit that he really didn't want to go and testify for. He avoided the process server (a hired private investigator) for 2-3 weeks (not answering the doorbell and being quick about getting into his car, after ensuring the coast is clear). Eventually, the subpoena expired, and he never did have to go in and testify. You should check your state's laws to see what constitutes a delivered subpoena, but it's likely that they have to hand it to you in person (to be specific, in many states, the subpoena is legally served when it touches your body). If they want to serve it by another method (certified mail, nailing it on your door, etc), they will probably have to get a judge to sign off on that -- this probably requires a motion on the part of the plaintiff (and more hassle and money expenditures for them and their lawyer, and the judge may not go for that).
Also, the plaintiff trying to serve you with a subpoena is paying the sheriff's deputy to serve it to you (serving subpoenas is not a free service that sheriffs generally provide). It is likely that the longer you drag the process out, the more the plaintiff has to pay (if he has to pay per service attempt -- this likely varies from county to county). So if you want to gently discourage lawsuits, not making yourself easily available to be served might be worthwhile.
Basically, if you don't want to appear in court, you have no obligation whatsoever to make it easy for the plaintiff to serve you. Take a long vacation. You deserve it.
BTW, I recently got a subpoena as I was the witness of an accident. A pedestrian got hit by a car, now I got a check for $13 along with the subpoena and the constable serving it told me that out of $13, $9 was 1 days wages and $4 for commuting, I was like WTF?? Based on the current time for deposition I have to miss about 3 hours of work, should I ask them to reimburse me for the lost time??
texasland
Member
posted: Jul. 10, 2009 @ 2:24p
pruks said: Based on the current time for deposition I have to miss about 3 hours of work, should I ask them to reimburse me for the lost time??
Don't bother. They are under no obligation to do so (given the "witness fee" you have already received).
kars
Serene Member
posted: Jul. 10, 2009 @ 2:55p
The judge in the case will not be pleased if it looks like you tried purposefully to avoid the notice. The subpoena servers have to be paid, and paid for attempts to serve. You don't want to p.o. the judge, and don't want to appear to have anything to hide. By all means get legal advice, free if possible, but the subpoena is just a process, nothing to gain by trying to subvert the process, especially if you do end up a party in the case.
Once you are served you are forced to appear in court (or face charges). To me that sounds like a loss of personal freedom, or, in other words, a loose incarceration. If you're ok with that then by all means call the sheriff and have fun getting paid $9 a day or whatever trivial chump-change they pay for you to waste your time in the courtroom. Isn't that the same amount they pay convicts per day? Hmmmm....
There is absolutely no reason the OP should expedite the serving process. In fact by drawing it out there is a chance he won't have to appear. Hell I'd pay a buddy to run interference for me if it would benefit my freedom.
pruks said: BTW, I recently got a subpoena as I was the witness of an accident. A pedestrian got hit by a car, now I got a check for $13 along with the subpoena and the constable serving it told me that out of $13, $9 was 1 days wages and $4 for commuting, I was like WTF?? Based on the current time for deposition I have to miss about 3 hours of work, should I ask them to reimburse me for the lost time??
The compensation paid to witnesses are generally set by statute. In my state it's $25 per day, plus 20¢ per mile, and $5 per night for "hotel and meal expenses". That alone will tell you the last time the rates were updated.
Keeping long records for something selling like a washing machine might not be an issue but when you are a service based business designing something, there is always the issue of health and human safety.
A building may not collapse the year you build it but if it does have a design flaw that causes say the roof fall down after 10 years you will be sued none the less. I am considering keeping personal records of all work I do personally - it is a professional reference you can use down the line and it is important to ensure that you have un-adulterated files when defending yourself.
computerquest said: marvholly said: If I am reading this correctly the work in question was done in 2003. It is now 2009 - about 6 years. Most companies only keep records for a limited amount of time; usually 3-5 years. Even the IRS only suggests 3 years unless they are claimin fraud-then no limit.
I doubt the OP even still has anything relevant.
Any business that only keeps records for 3-5 years is asking for trouble...
The IRS wants you to only keep 3 years so that when they claim fraud (and some type of fraud seems to always be there) you don't have a leg to stand on.
On a professional project level, I would always keep a file of records. Maybe not the McDonald's receipt that was charged back, but the contract, meeting notes, and final design approval with plans. In the "digital era," that is not exactly difficult.
I once thought that there was a limit on when someone could bring a lawsuit for these types of design services, something like 7 years or so, but I now think that's not true. Or records are pretty complete from the day we opened.
wijjit said: You do not have any "obligation" to be available to be served with a subpoena. If they manage to serve you, you do have an obligation to appear in court.
...
Basically, if you don't want to appear in court, you have no obligation whatsoever to make it easy for the plaintiff to serve you. Take a long vacation. You deserve it.
I'm going back and forth, but I think I'm leaning towards this idea for a couple of reasons. One, I'm busy and have better things to do with my time (billable hours) and two, I'm not sure I want to help facilitate something that can only lead to aggrivation and potential expense for me.
Crazytree
Senior Member - 7K
posted: Jul. 10, 2009 @ 8:10p
codename47 said: Read it. If you don't want to answer it, file a motion to quash.
I don't think we did anything wrong, but in my limited experience with the legal system everyone looses in a lawsuit You need to do some more reading. I've felt quite successful in my legal experiences.
Would I gain anything by stretching the process out as long as possible? Time to read over the suit, ascertain what they are asking and what you may have to provide, besides, you can't serve what you can't find. Again you can set some time up in the future to receive these papers, but you don't have to do it today.I think you need to stop engaging in the unauthorized practice of law.
Crazytree
Senior Member - 7K
posted: Jul. 10, 2009 @ 8:15p
this is probably a SDT (subpoena duces tecum) which is requesting documents only. it is probably coming from a copy service and they'll include a small check and set up a date for a guy to come in and copy the relevant documents.
the advice that you should consider a motion to quash is retarded. you're a third party witness, and the subpoena power of the civil courts is fairly substantial so you're not going to make this thing go away by ignoring it. why be bothered and have this thing hanging over your head when you can just deal with it? I don't know what state you're in, but in CA they're required to serve a "NOTICE TO CONSUMER OR EMPLOYEE" California Judicial Council Form SUBP-025 where the party whose records are being sought can object pursuant to California Code of Civil Procedure Section 1987.1 at least five days before the date of production, and then the requesting party will have to obtain a court order.
and if they were to do that... you'd be off the hook until the motion was heard and the order issued by the court... which could take a month or two at minimum.
IANYL... consult a competent legal professional licensed to practice in your state.
edit:
after thinking about this a bit in the car, I am not sure if these types of records require a Notice to Consumer. in fact, based on my cursory recollection of CCP 1985.3, I don't think it does, although the code section leaves out certain types of records that I know require such a Notice... IE most employment records.
codename47
Senior Member - 3K
posted: Jul. 10, 2009 @ 9:22p
I think you need to stop engaging in the unauthorized practice of law. I think you should go read the definition of unauthorized practice of law and stop accusing people of doing things they aren't doing.
BradMajors said: LH2004 said: BradMajors said: I would assume you did your work through your own LLC or Corporation. And, that the "client" contracted with your company and not with you. Hence, the subpoena should be going to your company and not to you! The distinction is important in that you want your company to be sued and not you individually. One of the purposes of forming a corporation is to shield yourself from personal liability. Anyway, if he is ever sued for some type of malpractice, he likely would be personally liable for his own acts. The contract is with his Corporation and not with him, no one can sue him. OP can not know why he is being subpoenaed until he reads the subpoena. A process server would say anything in order to get him to accept the papers.
Most business loans are signed and guaranteed personally. If he has one, he's in for one, regardless of whether it's pc, llc, pllc, etc.
I agree with crazytree. As a plaintiff of a similar situation. We subpoenaed an architect for his advice and as a witness expert (most likely the plaintiff wants to prove that the developer followed your architectural plan). You can make some $$$ doing so after negotiating with the plaintiff's lawyer. But just a document and original plan would suffice.
If it is a deposition, you can always use the Clinton defense: "It depends on what the meaning of "is" is" or "I don't recall." Seriously, if you want to get the details of what the complaint alleges, sign up for a Pacer account to access court documents. It is pretty inexpensive unless you download a lot of documents.Pacer
janwad
Senior Member
posted: Jul. 10, 2009 @ 10:49p
Don't assume that your insurance company has your same interests and agenda. Their advice is aimed at limiting their time and expense, not yours. I recently watched them railroad a client into settlement because it was cheaper for them. Unfortunately, the admission of guilt ruined the client's career and opened them up to more suits. The insurance company doesn't care about that.
Xnarg
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Jul. 10, 2009 @ 10:56p
Plead the Fifth.
Skipping 12 Messages...
peekay331
Member
posted: Jul. 25, 2009 @ 2:35a
BradMajors said: There is something else which is wrong...
I would assume you did your work through your own LLC or Corporation. And, that the "client" contracted with your company and not with you. Hence, the subpoena should be going to your company and not to you! The distinction is important in that you want your company to be sued and not you individually. One of the purposes of forming a corporation is to shield yourself from personal liability.
Who is your agent of service for your corporation? It looks like you may have made yourself the agent which is something which you should never do and you should immediately get fixed.
I would also assume you have a multi-million dollar "errors and omissions" policy to cover any possible lawsuit. You might want to inform your insurance company of the subpoena. (so that their lawyers could get involved.)
Hence, I would assume you personally have nothing to worry about.
sorry, but what the heck are you talking about? Just because a party is subpoenaed to testify has nothing to do with who ends up being sued or who has liability. You don't subpoeana a business entity, e.g. inc., llp, llc, etc., to testify. You subpoena a human being to testify.
By contrast, if it is a subpoena duces tecum, then it should be directed to the business entity because the documents are legally in the possession of the entity. In that case, I suppose OP could claim that he does not personally have possession of the requested documents.
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