I can't wait to see the FW response to the plight of these people. Personally, it makes me scared to turn 40 knowing there is such ageism and discrimination out there.
Thank goodness for PBS's Frontline. Most media outlets believe we cannot handle the truth. They have gone as far to editorialize about the recession being over several times. Look around you and the story is far different from the one they are painting... the Upper East Side is just the latest example.
The media also wants us to believe that we, as Americans, have experienced great change. Except the only genuine change has been its own ostensible veneer. We're still being played by both sides, on every calculated level.
Though, as educated and frugal consumers, we have been well-built from the ground up for survival. Again I'm not worried about the things that simply 'work' in our society, only that which is broken.
Another great PBS program is Bill Moyer's Journal. Here's an episode that every American should watch.
"Just over a year after economic calamity brought promises of reform from Washington, has Wall Street really changed? Former International Monetary Fund chief economist Simon Johnson and US Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-OH) report on the state of the economy." http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10092009/watch.html
Here's another Frontline piece about the real problem with America's health care in a free-market capitalist system. Again, things that no one cares to discuss or debate.
Seems as though you can still watch the PBS Frontline documentary "Dangerous Prescription," even if I can no longer get the watch on-line link to resolve. Six years after its production, this Frontline program remains very relevant. The very same health care system meant to protect us via a Hippocratic Oath is actually making us a very sick Nation.
Yes, I watched it last night, this is a MUST SEE documentary about the recession's impact on New York's upper east side (but really, its about much more than just the upper east side).
Watch interesting "characters" (who may seem strange to some here) struggle to figure out who they are, how they are going to survive, what their life has come to, and how they can run up more debt on their credit cards...
If this represents America as a whole, we are screwed! This cannot end well! All the talk of the recession being over by the rest of the media sure doesn't jive with the picture puzzle that is emerging. Personally I think things could get MUCH worse over the next 10 years.
The renter at the salon owner's sister's home in FL really got to me. He seemed to have led an interesting life, being good at something for which I assume he was passionate (ballet), only to find himself losing his wife to disease, his home, and any semblance of a job later in middle age.
That's not the profile of the CNN american hero people here like to bash. I mean, this guy could've been anyone, and could've made all the responsible decisions he could (financially), yet still ended up renting a small room in the home of a woman about to lose her home to foreclosure.
It doesn't reflect the America I know, that's for certain. It also reminded me that while we are coming off a historic high in terms of quality of living, there's no floor to how much worse things can get collectively for the American people, particularly if it is the case our standard of living will fall as other nations ascend.
I got through about the first 3 minutes before I turned it off. These are people sitting in an expensive hair salon talking about how little money they have, how about you cut the unnecessary expenses out of your life people? It is like two people who work at McDonalds talking about how little they make while they drink starbucks and play on their iphones.
larrytrain said: particularly if it is the case our standard of living will fall as other nations ascend.
I think its hard for most American's to understand that the average salary for URBAN workers in China is $4,273 a year (and its much lower for non-urban workers). In the US that is obviously way below the poverty line. And yet with global wage arbitrage, this is basically what we will be increasingly competing with. Even an engineer only makes about $12,000 a year on average there. India is similar. One of our country's best assets is very large amounts of land for food production (something China is severely lacking), but this is an industry that is almost completely mechanized and requires relatively few workers, not to mention now involves corporate giants that will sell to the highest bidder just like any other industry. So we could to be hit with a perfect storm of dropping wages, chronically high unemployment, and possibly rising or at least persistently high commodity prices.
p.s. It's even harder for American's to believe that the Chinese savings rate is 40% !!
tante said: I got through about the first 3 minutes before I turned it off. These are people sitting in an expensive hair salon talking about how little money they have, how about you cut the unnecessary expenses out of your life people? It is like two people who work at McDonalds talking about how little they make while they drink starbucks and play on their iphones.What do you expect for a piece on the recession's impact on an affluent neighborhood? The people featured didn't lose their jobs at McDonalds. They had good jobs.
Theoretically people shouldn't need the personal stories to know how bad things are. One only needed to look at the 600k to 700k per months of job losses not long ago. There is a reason the economists call this one The Great Recession.
OTOH, there is no denial that the economy has stopped contracting, so by traditional definitions the recession did end in Q3 2009. Rage against the jobless recovery all you want, but most recoveries are jobless recoveries first.
tante said: I got through about the first 3 minutes before I turned it off. These are people sitting in an expensive hair salon talking about how little money they have, how about you cut the unnecessary expenses out of your life people? It is like two people who work at McDonalds talking about how little they make while they drink starbucks and play on their iphones.
I see it a bit differently. Yes, they probably shouldn't be at the salon, and probably 99% of the people on this forum wouldn't be.
However, put yourself in their shoes for just a minute. For many of these people, their lives were pretty damn good as they rode the escalator up during the 25+ year credit boom in the USA.
Now, they are experiencing their whole lives as they knew them basically go away and they're coming to the realization it will NEVER, EVER, EVER be as good as it was. On top of that, all they have to look forward is old age and expenses and living a far reduced standard of living. Their careers, life's work, life/retirement savings, and so called "safety nets" are disappearing or effectively worthless.
The reason they're in the salon is b/c if they didn't indulge in this occasional luxury where they could talk to someone, feel a short sugar high/feel like things are still OK, then they'd be jumping off buildings and bridges around Manhattan en masse.
And IMO, it's damn frightening to think what these people are experiencing may end up being the tip of the iceberg. We're still far closer to the mountain peak than to the mountain base. People forget that.
The other thing from the show I tuned in to was some of the people that think education is the solution. I'm all for education, but take the bull by the horns and get an education that is USEFUL. I see WAY to many people that just plain haven't thought about WHY they are getting the degrees they are getting. I can't believe all the people racking up $80,000 in debt (sometimes more) without even thinking seriously about a career path. You should be interning (for free if necessary) while going to school to gain real world experience and get an edge on everyone you will be competing with. A guy in this show was $80,000 in debt and just got his theology degree, I'm not going to knock his choice of degrees, but the guy clearly had not thought at all about how this degree would help him get a job, in fact he said himself that churches would not hire someone who has debt (a lot of people do not know about this common policy at many churches/denominations). Another person in the show was talking about getting an MBA, do you know how many unemployed people with MBAs there are right now? The 50+ year olds will not only be racking up big debts for a worthless degree, but they will be competing with fresh grads in their 20's who will work for less.
So people who didn't jump to the next high paying job, buy the house they could barely afford and eat out 5 nights a week are supposed to feel sorry for the people who's bubble just popped. I feel a little bad for these people but I got kind of sick of realtors, salesman, mortgage brokers all making 250k plus per year, which I think is highly overpaid. I guess it is FatWallet time now. The people that saved, that stayed in their "safe" jobs, the people who have a ton saved for retirement. We can splurge now, travel is cheap, cars are cheap, and houses are cheap. We can make our smart decisions and live like kings.
tante said: I got through about the first 3 minutes before I turned it off. These are people sitting in an expensive hair salon talking about how little money they have, how about you cut the unnecessary expenses out of your life people? It is like two people who work at McDonalds talking about how little they make while they drink starbucks and play on their iphones.
I don't think a women cutting hair in a spot she rents below her own apt qualifies as an expensive hair salon, especially by Upper East Side standards. I know you probably bought your own Wahl second hand from eBay and give yourself you own haircuts... but most people prefer to have good haircuts.
I find it odd that the same people who decry socialism constantly are the same who like to point out that no one really has the right to be concerned with their state in life until they have the same standard of living as a Chinese family.
MarketVViz said: The other thing from the show I tuned in to was some of the people that think education is the solution. I'm all for education, but take the bull by the horns and get an education that is USEFUL. I see WAY to many people that just plain haven't thought about WHY they are getting the degrees they are getting. I can't believe all the people racking up $80,000 in debt (sometimes more) without even thinking seriously about a career path. You should be interning (for free if necessary) while going to school to gain real world experience and get an edge on everyone you will be competing with. A guy in this show was $80,000 in debt and just got his theology degree, I'm not going to knock his choice of degrees, but the guy clearly had not thought at all about how this degree would help him get a job, in fact he said himself that churches would not hire someone who has debt (a lot of people do not know about this common policy at many churches/denominations). Another person in the show was talking about getting an MBA, do you know how many unemployed people with MBAs there are right now? The 50+ year olds will not only be racking up big debts for a worthless degree, but they will be competing with fresh grads in their 20's who will work for less.
It's not going to get any better when you have the "unemployed demographic" (watching TV between 11am and 2pm) being bombarded with get-rich-quick paths sold to them by the many for-profit educational institutions out there.
Far too many people buy into the belief that college degree = instant job with big salary. Basic supply & demand should dictate that if everyone is getting a degree specifically to get XYZ job, then XYZ job will: a)cease to be vacant because there are now more applicants than positions b)no longer pay well because employers will have their 'pick of the litter'
There are a few ways to solve this problem, but many of them will be viewed as extreme attempts to rob people of The American Dream - so people would rather go into heavy debt to get yet another degree, to find out that they are not employable because they have neither the applicable experience nor the transferable skills to succeed in that position.
VerbalK said: I know you probably bought your own Wahl second hand from eBay and give yourself you own haircuts... but most people prefer to have good haircuts.
I bought my Wahl brand new for under $10, that was 15 years ago. Also bought scissors for $1. Asked my wife to try cutting my hair about 12 years ago and haven't paid for a hair cut since. Turns out its not hard at all to give a good haircut, after about 3 sessions the novice is about as good as a professional . I cut my wife's hair too. And she now cuts our son's hair. The savings are huge over a lifetime, not to mention all the time saved.
tante said: I got through about the first 3 minutes before I turned it off. These are people sitting in an expensive hair salon talking about how little money they have, how about you cut the unnecessary expenses out of your life people? It is like two people who work at McDonalds talking about how little they make while they drink starbucks and play on their iphones.
Listen more and you would find about 15min in a lady admits to treating herself even better than before, such as, massages, personal fitness, haircuts and further admits to just charging it.
lifescool111
Member
posted: Oct. 28, 2009 @ 11:13a
tante said: I splurged on my Wahl and got it brand new and do cut my own hair. There is no reason a wife/buddy/yourself can give you a good haircut. Hell Yeah! I too got a Gandhi Spindle and now make my own thread and sew my own clothes. There is no reason why you cant make your, your wife's, your buddy's and your children clothes yourself.
New Yorkers are fleeing the state and city in alarming numbers -- and costing a fortune in lost tax dollars, a new study shows.
More than 1.5 million state residents left for other parts of the United States from 2000 to 2008, according to the report from the Empire Center for New York State Policy. It was the biggest out-of-state migration in the country.
The vast majority of the migrants, 1.1 million, were former residents of New York City -- meaning one out of seven city taxpayers moved out.
"The Empire State is being drained of an invaluable resource -- people," the report said...
While New York City and the state were the losers, the Sunshine and Garden States were winners. More than 250,000 New Yorkers who lived in and around the city fled to Florida. Another 172,000 city taxpayers ended up in New Jersey.
-----------
Good reminder of how high tax rates affect everyone, not just those who pay them.
lifescool111 said: tante said: I splurged on my Wahl and got it brand new and do cut my own hair. There is no reason a wife/buddy/yourself can give you a good haircut. Hell Yeah! I too got a Gandhi Spindle and now make my own thread and sew my own clothes. There is no reason why you cant make your, your wife's, your buddy's and your children clothes yourself.
why would you pay for a spindle? There are plenty of ways to get free clothes.
Credit card signups are a great way for fee mastercard t-shirts swing by a garage sale right before closing and they will give their old 70s clothes to you for free
slomo007
Senior Member
posted: Oct. 28, 2009 @ 11:40a
tante said: lifescool111 said: tante said: I splurged on my Wahl and got it brand new and do cut my own hair. There is no reason a wife/buddy/yourself can give you a good haircut. Hell Yeah! I too got a Gandhi Spindle and now make my own thread and sew my own clothes. There is no reason why you cant make your, your wife's, your buddy's and your children clothes yourself.
why would you pay for a spindle? There are plenty of ways to get free clothes.
Credit card signups are a great way for fee mastercard t-shirts swing by a garage sale right before closing and they will give their old 70s clothes to you for free
Homemade hair cut, cheap mastercard t-shirt, and 70s disco pants? You sound like a page right out of GQ.
slomo007 said: tante said: why would you pay for a spindle? There are plenty of ways to get free clothes.
Credit card signups are a great way for fee mastercard t-shirts swing by a garage sale right before closing and they will give their old 70s clothes to you for free
Homemade hair cut, cheap mastercard t-shirt, and 70s disco pants? You sound like a page right out of GQ. Look out, ladies. Tante is on the prowl!
VerbalK said: tante said: I got through about the first 3 minutes before I turned it off. These are people sitting in an expensive hair salon talking about how little money they have, how about you cut the unnecessary expenses out of your life people? It is like two people who work at McDonalds talking about how little they make while they drink starbucks and play on their iphones.I don't think a women cutting hair in a spot she rents below her own apt qualifies as an expensive hair salon, especially by Upper East Side standards. Yeah, honestly, the second I saw the woman who owns the salon, I knew this wasn't an upscale salon. Not everything in the UES is upscale. I only watched 5 minutes but I found the title misleading -- I doubt there are many wives of Wall Street financiers going to this salon (or whatever the stereotype of the typical UES salon patron is). I'm assuming any salon that caters to the ultra-rich would not participate in such a documentary.
This is what happens when snooty elitists price everyone else out of NYC, then stuff hits the fan, and they find themselves priced out of their own lifestyle and neighborhood. I feel somewhat bad for these people, but the first thing they should do when they lose jobs, is to get their arses out of the city and into the much more affordable burbs instead of trying to hang on to a pipe dream.
tante said: We can splurge now, travel is cheap, cars are cheap, and houses are cheap. We can make our smart decisions and live like kings. Oh i love cheap . that's what made WalMart biggest corporation !!
chimeer
Cranky Member
posted: Oct. 28, 2009 @ 2:06p
mannyv said: larrytrain said: if it is the case our standard of living will fall as other nations ascend.
Note that standards of living isn't zero-sum.
They aren't zero sum but if Americans don't figure out how to effectively compete against China and India we won't continue to see the massive increases in standard of living that we have had over the last 50 years. If an Indian engineer makes ~12k/year that means an American engineer needs to be 5 to 6 times as effective in order justify their salary of 70k/year. We are looking at having some very stiff competition for resources, and while standards of living certainly isn't zero sum there is a finite quantity of most natural resources, that could at least theoretically decrease our standard of living substantially.
I'm not saying it is going to happen just that the rise of India/China will increase competition for resources.
beall
Member
posted: Oct. 28, 2009 @ 2:11p
tante said: I guess it is FatWallet time now. The people that saved, that stayed in their "safe" jobs, the people who have a ton saved for retirement. We can splurge now, travel is cheap, cars are cheap, and houses are cheap. We can make our smart decisions and live like kings.
But the government is trying all means to NOT let that happen.
I will be in the market for a house next year. Everywhere you turn, the media is talking about how this is a good time to buy a house, given that the price has already come down a lot and the government is "helping" with low low low interest rate ... Well, if they really want to help me, raise the rate so I don't have to pay for the money they are printing. In fact, raise the rate is 20% and let the house price crash for another 50%! I will pay cash.
That's how they can really help people who are responsible with their finances.
tante said: ...The people that saved, that stayed in their "safe" jobs, the people who have a ton saved for retirement. We can splurge now, travel is cheap, cars are cheap, and houses are cheap. We can make our smart decisions and live like kings.
You only consider yourself smart, and living like a king now can be just as foolish as you may consider for some of the profiled people (agreed). Should you loose your job and/or health insurance, with limited opportunities to quickly rebound, you may find yourself in the same predicament. That is once you are done living like a king and wisely spent up all your reserves.
A lot of very good points thus far. There is such a thing as corporate social responsibility, however I think there needs to be such a thing as Corporate Patriotism. Such that a co. will recognize its heritage/alliance to a nation and as such act in a way that will support that nations economy. which means possibly not outsourcing jobs, materials, manufacturing... I guess how things used to get done in the old days. If not, realizing that it is loosing/firing its own customer base.
Likewise its consumers need to be willing to support that companies products/services. Do people remember the Buy American campaign in the 80's. Wonder what would have happened if people actually supported this and it meant something.
I find it so funny that we, the US, are nation builders, humanitarians, blah blah blah, with billions and trillions in aid, with so many issues/infrastructure at home needing help. How about the 73 yr old Bay bridge falling apart or 90 year old wooden damn that busted open, up north. We spend unimaginable amounts with our Mil itary benefiting outsourced contractors/corporations in the name of democracy. Yet instead of having our corporations go and build up a nation to our standard of living, we allow them to pillage other nations with brand name sweat shops, cheap labor etc... So in general, as a christian nation, we aren't about a rising tides lifting all boats and neither are our corporations.
Now that our beloved government, to which every one works for, owns some of these corporations, maybe they can nation build through its operations. Wouldn't surprise me!
MarketVViz said: larrytrain said: particularly if it is the case our standard of living will fall as other nations ascend.
I think its hard for most American's to understand that the average salary for URBAN workers in China is $4,273 a year (and its much lower for non-urban workers). In the US that is obviously way below the poverty line. And yet with global wage arbitrage, this is basically what we will be increasingly competing with. Even an engineer only makes about $12,000 a year on average there. India is similar. One of our country's best assets is very large amounts of land for food production (something China is severely lacking), but this is an industry that is almost completely mechanized and requires relatively few workers, not to mention now involves corporate giants that will sell to the highest bidder just like any other industry. So we could to be hit with a perfect storm of dropping wages, chronically high unemployment, and possibly rising or at least persistently high commodity prices.
p.s. It's even harder for American's to believe that the Chinese savings rate is 40% !!
Ahh the cost of living in the USA is the same as in China, and therefor we can directly compare wages.
sananthak
Member
posted: Oct. 28, 2009 @ 4:06p
michal1980 said: MarketVViz said: larrytrain said: particularly if it is the case our standard of living will fall as other nations ascend.
I think its hard for most American's to understand that the average salary for URBAN workers in China is $4,273 a year (and its much lower for non-urban workers). In the US that is obviously way below the poverty line. And yet with global wage arbitrage, this is basically what we will be increasingly competing with. Even an engineer only makes about $12,000 a year on average there. India is similar. One of our country's best assets is very large amounts of land for food production (something China is severely lacking), but this is an industry that is almost completely mechanized and requires relatively few workers, not to mention now involves corporate giants that will sell to the highest bidder just like any other industry. So we could to be hit with a perfect storm of dropping wages, chronically high unemployment, and possibly rising or at least persistently high commodity prices.
p.s. It's even harder for American's to believe that the Chinese savings rate is 40% !!
Ahh the cost of living in the USA is the same as in China, and therefor we can directly compare wages.
michal1980 said: MarketVViz said: larrytrain said: particularly if it is the case our standard of living will fall as other nations ascend.
I think its hard for most American's to understand that the average salary for URBAN workers in China is $4,273 a year (and its much lower for non-urban workers). In the US that is obviously way below the poverty line. And yet with global wage arbitrage, this is basically what we will be increasingly competing with. Even an engineer only makes about $12,000 a year on average there. India is similar. One of our country's best assets is very large amounts of land for food production (something China is severely lacking), but this is an industry that is almost completely mechanized and requires relatively few workers, not to mention now involves corporate giants that will sell to the highest bidder just like any other industry. So we could to be hit with a perfect storm of dropping wages, chronically high unemployment, and possibly rising or at least persistently high commodity prices.
p.s. It's even harder for American's to believe that the Chinese savings rate is 40% !!
Ahh the cost of living in the USA is the same as in China, and therefor we can directly compare wages.
sananthak said: michal1980 said: MarketVViz said: larrytrain said: particularly if it is the case our standard of living will fall as other nations ascend.
I think its hard for most American's to understand that the average salary for URBAN workers in China is $4,273 a year (and its much lower for non-urban workers). In the US that is obviously way below the poverty line. And yet with global wage arbitrage, this is basically what we will be increasingly competing with. Even an engineer only makes about $12,000 a year on average there. India is similar. One of our country's best assets is very large amounts of land for food production (something China is severely lacking), but this is an industry that is almost completely mechanized and requires relatively few workers, not to mention now involves corporate giants that will sell to the highest bidder just like any other industry. So we could to be hit with a perfect storm of dropping wages, chronically high unemployment, and possibly rising or at least persistently high commodity prices.
p.s. It's even harder for American's to believe that the Chinese savings rate is 40% !!
Ahh the cost of living in the USA is the same as in China, and therefor we can directly compare wages.
Everybody hates the Upper East Side. They wanna live on the West Side. But when it's resale timethe East Side moves all the time. What have you got on the West Side? Sean and Madonna?! Trust me.
MarketVViz said: Turns out its not hard at all to give a good haircut, after about 3 sessions the novice is about as good as a professional . ... The savings are huge over a lifetime, not to mention all the time saved. I was shock5ed, but it's true. Cutting hair is not hard and saves money and time.
Xnarg said: More than 250,000 New Yorkers who lived in and around the city fled to Florida. Another 172,000 city taxpayers ended up in New Jersey.Did the "study" control for age and job status? NYKers have been retiring to FL almost since the beginning of time, and in the last 18 months wall street and the related services (legal and accounting) have had massive layoffs. But that is probably too much to ask of the Post.
beall said: In fact, raise the rate is 20% and let the house price crash for another 50%! I will pay cash. If your wish comes true, your cash shouldn't be used to buy a house which will be burned down by the unemployed armed mob.
Skipping 23 Messages...
Svnla33
Thrifty Member
posted: Oct. 29, 2009 @ 2:45p
MarketVViz said: BusinessWeek is the MASTER of looking in the rear view mirror to see what's ahead. On Wall Street their cover stories are considered to be excellent contrary indicators. OK, an MBA is not worthless, but its more about the person than the MBA degree, and if you look at top school outcomes for MBAs over the last 20 years of course salary results should be phenomenal. That time frame was a very bubbly, booming period where we experienced explosive business growth, business creation, an internet bubble boom bigger than ever seen before, unparalleled financial "innovation" boom, etc. The time period we are in NOW is completely different. Sounds like you already have your degree, a good job, and relevant experience. My only point is that a newly unemployed person with no relevant experience is probably better off focusing on the fastest growing fields right now than going out and racking up a bunch of debt for an MBA.
A person looking for work or a career direction should start by looking at who is hiring right now, and what trends will likely be in place by the time they get the education they want/need! I don't think I need to provide a link for job postings, but here's an interesting related article:
Its equally important to look at what geographic location you should live & work in. You've got to be flexible, follow the jobs. A little googling will show you what areas have the lowest unemployment. I enjoyed the book "Who moved my cheese" (a short story about how to deal with changes that inevitably happen in life) check it out at your local library.
I can give you more evidences from Fortune, Forbes, and other well respected news sources about the value/worth of MBA degre but I think you can Google it just fine.
I will just reply to the bolded/underscored parts from your post:
1. Exactly, it is about the person and NOT the degree, whether it is in IT/Eng/Science or MBA or whatever. It is how you apply of what you learned and bring to the table. It is how you solve problem/cut waste and cost/improve quality or customer service. It is how you save or make the company money. Not about the sheet of paper you earned.
2. Same as #1, you can replace the "MBA" for "IT/Eng/fill in the blank degree". You can say the same thing for any degrees or disciplines. Love what you do and be good at it and the money will follow. Don't follow Jack/Bill/Lora just because he or she is making a ton of money due to a particular degree. For example, we all know doctors are doing very well, but for someone like me who doesn't like blood or handle body fluids, he or she will not do well to study to be a future doctor.
Another thing, without click on the link you provided, I know that would included healthcare/nurse or green tech jobs. Healthcare was good and is still good but not a given. With all the changes in insurance/medicare/etc. in the near future, healthcare may not stay the same. Green tech jobs are still too new to quantify and still debatable (wind, solar, and natural gas industries are taking a beating right now, at least in our neck of the wood).
My point is I don't really like it when people bashed or made general statements about a certain degree or field just due to some annotade evidences and hearsay.
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