Buying an HVAC unit over the internet, warranty "void"???

Soooo...

I'm buying a new HVAC unit for my house - I do a little research on the net to figure out what a "reasonable" quote is. Many contractors are still stuck in "bubble land" as far as pricing goes, they're obviously padding the equipment cost to make their labor seem more reasonable.

While I'm doing the research, I find this little gem...

http://www.goodmanmfg.com/Home/Warranty/InternetSalesVoidWarrant...

And the local, licensed, installer tells me he can't even come close on the price, but if I buy one of these "internet" units, the warranty will be "voided" by the manufacturer, no matter if it's installed properly or if it's even truly defective.

FWIW, this isn't an installer issue - my installer doesn't care if he installs my unit or his.

A simple reading of the warranty excludes coverage for improper installation, or installation by a homeowner.

Why would a manufacturer "void" warranties for internet sales except to prop up local pricing?

I've complained to the FTC and the atty's general in my state, the vendor's state, and the state where the manufacturer are located.

Just wondering if anyone else has run into this issue before, or had a warranty "voided"??.

FWIW, the warranty is silent about telephone purchases, so I still bought from the out-of-state dealer.

I'm amazed that a MFR would be so open to pushing the limits of anti-competitive behavior, especially considering the tremendous taxpayer-funded subsidy they're getting due to the 30% tax credit.

Goodman has had a real problem with homeowners installing their own equipment then submitting warranty claims when something does not work right.

They are the bottom of the barrel in the HVAC world.
I would consider American Standard equipment before goodman any day.

I am confused on why you think this company is breaking any laws or acting in any non-competitive manner. It seems to me that from what I have read here, the company has decided to only sell their products through approved vendors (installers). There are many reasons a company may do this. This will help them build a loyal vendor sales force. They can ensure that if the HVAC is installed by an approved reseller, then they will stand behind the warranty. They have more control over the price their products are sold at. Their resellers can be certain that they will not be undercut by other sales channels. Perhaps the company has never authorized anyone to sell its products on line. This would indicate that any of their products that are sold on line are grey market sales. I can understand why they would not want to provide a warranty on these unauthorized sales.

IMHO, this is not anti-competitive. You as a consumer are free to purchase your HVAC unit from a company that does sell it's products over the internet or using any other sales channel it chooses. That is the beauty of the free market. If you are not happy with this company, buy your HVAC from a different company that meets your needs.

I suspect that the FTC and attorneys general offices you complained to laughed at your complaint and threw it in the trash. It seems you are just not happy paying the price the company feels its products are worth. If this is the case again, you are free to find another vendor who will sell you an HVAC unit for a price you feel fair. If you find such a vendor, you may have to sacrifice some features that the higher priced units offer, like a warranty.

I hope this helps.

this is done with tons of other products. IE the gray market. Car steros are big. Musical instruments, etc, etc.

most times however you are unable to get the product on the gray market, so the exclusive/licensed vendors dont compete with gray market goods.

What I always wondered is where alot of these gray market products come from. For example, most car stero's can be bought on the gray market. Where is the supply coming from? The answer of course is directly from the manufacture, however for the manufacture to be able to do this, the product must be significantly different then the one bought retail. IMHO, not having a manufactures warrenty makes it significantly.different.

Edit as for costs. Is it really that easy to compete the savings? I know you could estimate replacement costs. And see how much you save if you had to replace the unit vs warrenty coverage. But how do you account for the chance of serverally premature failure?

I haven't looked at HVAC costs, but one thing I noticed is that most hvac forums seem to guard pricing/costing very closely. As if they are scared of lossing $$$ if the started competeing with each other.

Anyone with a brain would get a few quotes and compare services so as to not get shafted. And the idiots that don't wouldn't go online to look anyways.

You actually found an installer that is willing to install equipment that you are providing? I'd be very leery of that installer. Probably not a professional in the business full-time. Marking up the equipment is how installers make their money. Like someone posted earlier, the manufacturer is just trying to ensure that it is installed properly to avoid having to pay warranty claims for improperly installed equipment.

If the professional you called can't match the price, call another company- tons of companies have access to sell Goodman brand equipment. No company is "authorized" to sell equipment, they just go to their individual supply houses that stock the different brands of equipment.

I am not sure what exactly you are looking for, but I had new Lennox furnace (86%) and 3 ton Lennox Central air system installed for $1600 a couple of years ago. We got 3-4 estimates and then, pitted them against each other.

It came with a 5 year warranty and 5 years of maintenance. Lennox may not be the top of the line, but the house did not have central air, just forced air heating and a 25 year old Bryant.

I would expect prices to be lower now, since not too many people are doing much to their houses.

This is perfect time for upgrades. Tons of contractors are looking for work. Local exterminating company, Buffalo Exterminating, is now offering "helping hands" service. Where they come out and help people who can't tell a screw driver from a hammer install things and such.

We had a local cabinet maker make all custom solid wood, dove tailed, full extention cabinets and 3D laminate counter with beveled edges (looks like stone) for under $5000!

rzyzzy said: michal1980 said: this is done with tons of other products. IE the gray market. Car steros are big. Musical instruments, etc, etc.

most times however you are unable to get the product on the gray market, so the exclusive/licensed vendors dont compete with gray market goods.

What I always wondered is where alot of these gray market products come from. For example, most car stero's can be bought on the gray market. Where is the supply coming from? The answer of course is directly from the manufacture, however for the manufacture to be able to do this, the product must be significantly different then the one bought retail. IMHO, not having a manufactures warrenty makes it significantly.different.

Edit as for costs. Is it really that easy to compete the savings? I know you could estimate replacement costs. And see how much you save if you had to replace the unit vs warrenty coverage. But how do you account for the chance of serverally premature failure?

I haven't looked at HVAC costs, but one thing I noticed is that most hvac forums seem to guard pricing/costing very closely. As if they are scared of lossing $$$ if the started competeing with each other.

Anyone with a brain would get a few quotes and compare services so as to not get shafted. And the idiots that don't wouldn't go online to look anyways.

The problem with getting multiple quotes is that every dealer wants to push his own brand, so you'll get a bunch of apples-oranges comparisons.

for example, A top-shelf unit and the contractor re-using refrigerant lines, VS, bottom quality unit with new lines and a fancy-pants thermostat.

It's very difficult to pin these guys down, and they like it that way.

Add in some misinformation, "plausible" lies, incompetence and a touch of arrogance and you get what you have today.

And you are absolutely correct about the HVAC forums, anyone with the gall to mention pricing or doing it themselves gets the lecture about how you'll kill yourself, pollute the environment, and my personal favorite (paraphrasing), " you don't know nuttin' about running a business or how hard my job is, or how many expensive tools I had to buy, only to get undercut on labor by the employees I laid off you communist, cheapskate, fool - you cannot possibly understand how hard it is to only make $300-500 an hour with my trade-school education and my multiple-guess-open-book-tested EPA certification."

I think if you spend the time it wouldn't be that hard to pin them down. But that means being in control rather then giving the contractor all the say. I know some areas might be different. But in my area there are tons of HVAC people selling the same brand.

I'm thinking of replacing the HVAC in my house next year because of the energy credit, and that the unit in the house is ~25 years old.

Might annoy the wife, but i'll get a few different systems quoted, and maybe even the same brand form different dealers.

It's not as easy as it could be. But not that hard.

And yes, HVAC forums are excatly like you discribe it. I know hvac isn't the 'easiest' job in the world. But common now.

My favorite are the debates over operating temps/run time. And while its true that you want the system to operate at peak efficency the biggest HVAC blow harders seem to ignore the fact that mother nature doesn't have a constant temp outside. And while it might be overkill to design a system for the 1 day thats really out of the norm for the area. Having one that has enough overhead to cover the hot hot days, should not be too much to ask. Sure the average might be 85. But if its not of the norm to have 100+ days, why limit the system to only 85.

johnnybs said: You actually found an installer that is willing to install equipment that you are providing? I'd be very leery of that installer. Probably not a professional in the business full-time. Marking up the equipment is how installers make their money. Like someone posted earlier, the manufacturer is just trying to ensure that it is installed properly to avoid having to pay warranty claims for improperly installed equipment.

+1


rzyzzy said:
FWIW, the local distributor and the out-of-state distributor are both "authorized" dealers. You seem to agree that the "internet" sales policy is to prevent "undercutting" - that is my point exactly, and that is a pretty clear-cut case of anti-competitive behavior, imho.

1) I would confirm with Goodman that your "Internet dealer" is actually a registered dealer with them and is in good standing. I find it highly unlikely that an online company selling direct, clearing in violation of goodman's own policies, is also a legit dealer. More probably that this company is selling "gray" goods and not really an authorized dealer.

2) The Internet dealer has a cost advantage in several areas... from probably not having a real storefront, no technicians, no expectation from it's customers for warranty support, etc. How is this Internet dealer telling you a warranty repair would work? Call a local Goodman dealer? lol - good luck with that one! Or is he going to fly someone across the country to your house!


rzyzzy said:
Manufacturers don't get to "control" the pricing their products are sold at. They don't get to "retaliate" if a dealer wants to cut his own margins.

Sure they do - happens all the time. Bose is the classic example. Don't you ever see a "save 10%" coupon for a store, then in the fine print it'll exclude a number of brands? Same thing. Bose is the most well known for doing this.


rzyzzy said:
And they have no right to "prop up" a high priced local distributor at the expense of an out-of-town distributor.

I agree. However, they do have a right to make sure that their product is properly installed by a professional if you expect them to honor a warranty. As I mentioned above, how is your Internet (out of town) "dealer" going to install this at your house and be there for warranty repairs for the next 10 years? Short answer - they're not. You're either going to DIY when buying online... or hire a local handyman or HVAC tradesman who probably isn't a dealer, or Goodman dealer.


rzyzzy said:
What is your definition of anti-competitive behavior, if this isn't it? Fixing prices isn't legal.

Speaking as someone not in the HVAC industry and as someone who recently when through the process of purchasing a new HVAC system, I can feel your pain. It's no secret that the HVAC trade is probably the most "protectionist" of all of the trades in existence. By that, I mean DIY is severely frowned upon... and that includes Internet "gray market" sales. Their argument is primarily one of safety & warranty... but, really, it's about protecting their trade and jobs.

As far as anti-competitive, I don't see the argument. If you want to buy a Goodman model X, you have thousands of authorized dealers you can call for a quote. That Internet dealer probably isn't even a legit dealer, and can offer the product at lower cost than most due to them selling "gray market" products with none of the infrastructure costs required to properly install the product and support you through the warranty.

Yes, I think the warranty should be factored into the price when you make your choice. The same thing goes for hard drives. If you go to Western Digital's website for warranty repair on a hard drive, you will be presented with a choice to "trade up" to a new hard drive at a reduced price if you agree to void the warranty on the existing drive. So companies do consider the warranty to be a liability and therefore attach a price to it.

ellory said: Western Digital does not determine that the warranty is only valid if you have an approved installer

Not really a valid comparison, IMO. Installing a HDD is simply turning off computer, plugging in two plugs, and done. Installing an HVAC system is a bit more.

Ductless systems are popular in Asia, because most people live in high rises without central system, and many rooms do not have windows (cannot use window units). Ductless means there is no air ducts (because cool air comes directly from an in-room blower unit), but there are insulated refrigerant hoses, running from the cooling unit/heat exchanger (mounted outside) to the blower units in rooms. Usually one cooler/heat exchanger runs just one blower, larger ones can handle 2 blowers (2 rooms).

In terms of hardware costs, in Asia (especially China where a lot of them are made now) they are pretty cheap, but somehow they are expensive when imported into the US (volume just not high enough to get good pricing). And since installers don't do many of these, they probably don't give you much of a discount, even though installation is far less involved (no ducts).

Ductless is not efficient on heat (electric heat cost > gas heat cost usually). But on AC, if you just need to cool 1-2 rooms, ductless is far more efficient than central air (because it is not wasting cool air on unintended space).

Ductless is like the tankless water heater. Good idea, and executed very well (and priced competitively) everywhere except in the US because we don't pay global level energy prices, and our installers/dealers don't take the time to learn/promote these good ideas.

ck90211 said: ductless is far more efficient than central airYeah, I noticed some ductless systems are 25 SEER or higher

Being in the HVAC business myself, the EPA is NOT an open book test. There are a lot of things that can go wrong with the system if not installed correctly....like Carbon Monoxide poisoning, burning down your house, electrocution. Is it really worth it? If someone got an 86% furnace and a 3 ton ac system installed for $1,600, the equipment must have been 1) stolen, 2) scratch and dent, 3) installed by "Bubba." No offense to any Bubba's on here. 4) ?? who knows...maybe a rebate from the utility companies. The equipment alone on 13 seer is well over that for the coil, outdoor unit, pad, furnace and miscellaneous components. Even 10 seer units would be that price for the outdoor unit and coil only, installed.

It is also against the law to even hook up gauges on your system unless you are epa certified. There is a $25,000 fine if you are caught, one year in prison, and $10,000 to the person who turned you in.

Moisture in the lines will kill a compressor in a hurry and form a green slime that you can't get rid of and will continue to eat the coils and new compressor. Non-condensibles in the lineset will drive up head pressure, decreasing efficiency, increasing humidity, and poor cooling performance.

The design temperature of your particular city is calculated via Manual J. If you were to design for the hottest days of the year, you would have mold and mildew with high humidity in your home. It would be cool and clamy, perfect for breeding the nasties that you would breath in. The unit needs time to run and remove humidity at a rate of usually 25% latent and 75% sensible heat. Even a variable speed furnace with a way oversized ac unit would not be able to remove the normal humidity at 70% fan speed. 85 degree design must be somewhere in the North. The design temp is derived from about 90% of the hottest days of the year.

Just like car dealers who say you can't return electrical parts, if you don't know what you are doing, you can ruin good equipment in a hurry.

jcbecker28 said: Being in the HVAC business myself, the EPA is NOT an open book test.
Hmmmn... what's this?"This is an open book exam, you may use the manual freely, but you may not receive help from any other person."


There are a lot of things that can go wrong with the system if not installed correctly....like Carbon Monoxide poisoning, burning down your house, electrocution. Is it really worth it?


I can electrocute myself installing an outlet, or blow my house up with a common gas range, yet no one is giving me " the lecture" about replacing my own outlets. Lots of regular folks build airplanes in their garages, and fly them legally - assuming that everyone outside your trade is an idiot is pretty insulting.

 

If someone got an 86% furnace and a 3 ton ac system installed for $1,600, the equipment must have been 1) stolen, 2) scratch and dent, 3) installed by "Bubba." No offense to any Bubba's on here. 4) ?? who knows...maybe a rebate from the utility companies. The equipment alone on 13 seer is well over that for the coil, outdoor unit, pad, furnace and miscellaneous components. Even 10 seer units would be that price for the outdoor unit and coil only, installed.

Whatever...

It is also against the law to even hook up gauges on your system unless you are epa certified. There is a $25,000 fine if you are caught, one year in prison, and $10,000 to the person who turned you in.

More sensationalist BS. Where, exactly in federal prison is the "hooked up guages to my a/c unit to check the pressures" unit? Is it around the corner from the "removed the label from a mattress" section???

This is why your trade has no credibility.

Battleshipnote said: rzyzzy said:

I truly can't wait for the chinese to start importing HVAC stuff - it might be junk, but at least it'll be cheap.

With an attitude like that, maybe the local guys are putting a surcharge on their bids.

You do get what you give in life - my attitude is simply a reflection of the "cave man" attitude I've received from local contractors.

"UG will install magic "heat-cool" box on your house, $8,000. I would explain operation to you, but your feeble mind cannot comprehend the difficulty or complexity of this unit, UG requires half down in the form of cash, no checks.".

rzyzzy said: Battleshipnote said: rzyzzy said:

I truly can't wait for the chinese to start importing HVAC stuff - it might be junk, but at least it'll be cheap.

With an attitude like that, maybe the local guys are putting a surcharge on their bids.

You do get what you give in life - my attitude is simply a reflection of the "cave man" attitude I've received from local contractors.

"UG will install magic "heat-cool" box on your house, $8,000. I would explain operation to you, but your feeble mind cannot comprehend the difficulty or complexity of this unit, UG requires half down in the form of cash, no checks.".

I'm not too sure why you have a had on for the HVAC trades. Apparently you have found the market value in your area.

The primary reason that Goodman doesnt want to warranty something you buy over the internet is because they dont want the hassle of coming to your house and explaining that some guy on the other side of the country shipped you a defective/damaged unit and now doesnt answer your phone calls.

The reason they want a cash down payment is probably previous owners have written them a check, installed their unit, stopped payment on the check, told the installer to pound sand.

It is a magic box btw...they used to use ice and fire.

paging
dieselness84

a recent goodman install
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/934095

vickh said: I have a 3 yr old new home, Carrier HVAC unit that's leaking puron (in the attic handler). Still under parts warranty, but labor will be around $1500 here in AZ (1 yr labor warranty)

Should a unit be leaking this soon? Anything I can do to prevent it?

Carrier is suppose to be one of the best, so that goes to show my point.
Anyway with regards to your problem, the unit alone probably doesn't cost them half that.
Nothing you can do to prevent it.
Did they do an electronic leak check to determine its in the unit and not in one of their connections they did ?

xoneinax said: ck90211 said: ductless is far more efficient than central airYeah, I noticed some ductless systems are 25 SEER or higherThey are a little noisier than the duct central air. But since they are automatically many zones, you can achieve more savings if you only stay in one part of the house at a time. You can also check out Unico or SpacePak system. They are great for retrofitting old houses.

woowoo2 said: Goodman has had a real problem with homeowners installing their own equipment then submitting warranty claims when something does not work right.

They are the bottom of the barrel in the HVAC world.
I would consider American Standard equipment before goodman any day.

You have no idea what you are talking about and are buying into advertising. Open up a Goodman and an American Standard - they both have Copeland compressors in them. And they both use generic suppliers for the rest of the electronic parts. Goodman is one of the largest brand names (if not the largest) for HVAC equipment in the United States. And they have one of the longest warranties available in the industry ... when you have it installed properly. Maybe you know how to install your air conditioner, but the average homeowner does not. So when they braze the copper lines and forget to pull a vacuum on them, thus causing the compressor to run hot for the next 3 years before dying prematurely, you expect Goodman to cover it?

The only brand that is any different is Carrier, which uses a bunch of proprietary parts. When I went out on HVAC service calls, I carried two sets of parts ... 1 for carrier, and 1 for everyone else. Goodman is cheap because they spend $0 advertising to the public. We passed the savings on to our customers with cheaper equipment costs. How many Trane commercials do you see every day on the weather channel? We always offered our customers Goodman (or Janitrol, GMC, Amana, before they were bought out) unless they requested otherwise.

Now finding a competent and reliable HVAC contractor is another issue. I'd help you out, but I'm no longer in the business.

/former HVAC contractor

jcbrooks said: If you're studying the manuals, going to vocational schools, taking the tests, and buying the proper equipment ... you're essentially becoming a contractor yourself. So as a former HVAC contractor, I don't see what the big deal is. If someone wants to do that themselves, go for it. But the majority of DIYers will want to approach it like a tile job - pick up a 50 page full-color book from Home Depot and learn all you need to know in 30 minutes.

However, if you're doing all that only to install your own system, I would guess you're spending more time/money than you are saving. If you're doing it because you can't find a competent and reliable contractor in your area, putting your mind at ease may be worth it.I wouldn't consider myself qualified enough to be considered a contractor. There are many things in any field that you just don't learn in an introductory course or books.

I had the advantage that there was older gentleman who taught the EPA certification course/test. He appreciated the fact that I came to the course with a very good basic understanding. He was more than willing to help me with the important practical knowledge he had acquired over the years. Unfortunately, he has retired. So other than routine yearly maintenance and simple electrical component failures, I would call a contractor for serious repair problems.

Even after paying for tools, equipment, and supplies, the total cost was less than 1/2 of the lowest quote. Of course, that is not considering my time. However, I like to do as much as I can on these things. Even though I am sure it takes me two or three times as long as a professional. Also, I tend to over engineer things. But, to me it is actaully a little recreational to do as much as I can. Many times it actually ends up costing me more to do it myself.

However, I was and am continued to be amazed at the hostility that is generally directed by HVAC professionals towards anyone considering a DIY HVAC installation. I liken this to the Teamsters thugs who would bully and intimidate you if you tried to set up your own booth displays at trade shows.

I consider your attitude to be refreshing. You only seem to be trying to educate people to consider that there is minimum knowledge, skills, and legalities to consider.