Interesting article about two college students that refused to pay the 18% gratuity that was added to the bill by the bar. The students cited very poor service. The bar turned around and had them arrested for not paying it.
I find it hard to believe that any charges would hold as the plain definition of the word "Gratuity" indicates something given "voluntarily". If the restaurant truly wanted to make the tip mandatory, my opinion is that they shouldn't use the word gratuity.
Since I'm not a lawyer, I'd be curious what the lawyers here think. Are these two students screwed, or do they actually have a case against the police and the bar?
Edit: Thanks to wordgirl for posting a better link for the story.
Interesting post indeed. I've been living overseas now for a couple of years and tip at most a euro or two, and that's for great service! I can't imagine being forced to pay a gratuity for lousy service, especially 18%. Then again, I know what it's like to be a server and get stiffed, but it sounds like their waitress didn't come anywhere close to earning her tip.
They can get around this by removing the term "gratuity" and calling it a "service charge". And it would be much more accurate for restaurants to use than Ticketmaster , where you get $12 "convenience fees" and "service charges" for a $30 concert ticket. Absurd.
johnnybs said: Interesting post indeed. I've been living overseas now for a couple of years and tip at most a euro or two, and that's for great service! I can't imagine being forced to pay a gratuity for lousy service, especially 18%. Then again, I know what it's like to be a server and get stiffed, but it sounds like their waitress didn't come anywhere close to earning her tip.Or doing her job. Hopefully this doesn't turn into a tipping debate (I've seen my fair share of tipping threads and no-one ever "wins"). Bad move on the restaurant's part though, since they'll have some pretty bad publicity.
Waiters are pretty scum IMO. I hope they fight this hard.
Never give more than 15% in California. I will be generous when going to states that pay less than minimum wage and I dine at low priced restaurants, but CA waiters can suck it.
tlvx
Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 1:31p
If they wanted to be cheap they should have split up their party into two tables, so that they wouldn't get a mandatory tip charge. Or, they could have asked the manager for separate checks.
Either way, I'm trying to figure out why they didn't leave before the police were called, because usually bills are paid upon exit. It seems as if they stuck around to argue the point, which implies poor judgment, when they should have just paid under protest... but who knows? Did they even have the cash?
I can understand poor service, but as a general rule, don't order in groups unless everyone in the group is willing and capable of settling the whole tab independently.
sflv
Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 1:36p
Right or wrong, this seems like a publicity nightmare for the restaurant. For $18, they got a widespread negative ad campaign. The article doesn't state if they were arrested on site, but yeah stupid if they actually hung around for the police to arrive which I'm sure wasn't quick for petty theft.
tlvx said: If they wanted to be cheap they should have split up their party into two tables, so that they wouldn't get a mandatory tip charge. Or, they could have asked the manager for separate checks.I don't think it has anything to do with "being cheap" or "not having the cash" (unless the news story is being impartial, which could also be the case).
I'm sure they were more than willing to pay a "mandatory tip" had they received some kind of adequate service. Although they probably should have handled this a bit differently, such as complaining to a manager and asking that the tip be revoked (if it were me, I'd just pay the "mandatory" tip and contest that portion of the charge with my credit card company).
I HATE terrible service with mandatory tip!!!Especially with CA's sales tax(9.xx%), that's almost 1/3 extra of your bill for a nice dinner!!!
tlvx
Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 1:53p
t60 said: I don't think it has anything to do with "being cheap" or "not having the cash" (unless the news story is being impartial, which could also be the case). I'm sure they were more than willing to pay a "mandatory tip" had they received some kind of adequate service. Although they probably should have handled this a bit differently, such as complaining to a manager and asking that the tip be revoked (if it were me, I'd just pay the "mandatory" tip and contest that portion of the charge with my credit card company).I explained how they could have easily avoided the mandatory tip charge for large parties, by simply not being a large party. Once they crossed that threshold as a large party, they waived their rights to protest tips. Furthermore, using poor service as an excuse to save a few bucks, is certainly not worth going to jail over, let alone wasting time arguing the point until the cops come in the first place. Either just pay, leave, and don't come back; Or, don't pay, leave, and don't come back. Either way, which part includes sticking around arguing until the cops get involved?
The menu clearly states, "18 percent gratuity added to check of parties of 6 of more," and a similar message is printed on receipts, a pub employee said this morning.
Well, it wasn't disclosed before they were seated as a 'large party' but it was disclosed before they ordered. I suspect they didn't have a problem with the 18% tip until after they got terrible service.
t60 said: tlvx said: If they wanted to be cheap they should have split up their party into two tables, so that they wouldn't get a mandatory tip charge. Or, they could have asked the manager for separate checks.I don't think it has anything to do with "being cheap" or "not having the cash" (unless the news story is being impartial, which could also be the case). I think the word you're looking for is "biased". Impartial is exactly what the article is, since they didn't make a judgment about either the restaurant or the patrons.
squid3 said: Maybe initially they wanted to pay for just the meal, and later planned on giving her "just the tip"
I think that is where my question comes in. If the restaurant uses the word "gratuity", I would think that it could not become legally binding on the patron as every plain english definition of the word "gratuity" involves "voluntarily given". I would think the legal interpretation of the bar's notice is that the bar is calculating 18% on the check, but it's not mandatory.
jmackdaddy
Senior Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 2:54p
gatzdon said: squid3 said: Maybe initially they wanted to pay for just the meal, and later planned on giving her "just the tip"
I think that is where my question comes in. If the restaurant uses the word "gratuity", I would think that it could not become legally binding on the patron as every plain english definition of the word "gratuity" involves "voluntarily given". I would think the legal interpretation of the bar's notice is that the bar is calculating 18% on the check, but it's not mandatory.
Exactly- the "gratuity" language will mean the students will win. They should have called it a large party surcharge.
Either way, the restaurant manager is a complete bonehead for not taking care of this properly. Now it'll be a big news sensation and make the rounds all over internet. Bad for business. If I owned the restaurant, I'd have a new manager in place by now.
zwingman
Dismembered Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 3:02p
Those must have been some good wings...
MEGAWALLET
Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 3:06p
Idiots should have paid with a credit card and charged back the tip (after first complaining in writing directly to the restaurant and demanding the tip money back). They were moronic.
gatzdon said: squid3 said: Maybe initially they wanted to pay for just the meal, and later planned on giving her "just the tip"
I think that is where my question comes in. If the restaurant uses the word "gratuity", I would think that it could not become legally binding on the patron as every plain english definition of the word "gratuity" involves "voluntarily given". I would think the legal interpretation of the bar's notice is that the bar is calculating 18% on the check, but it's not mandatory.It looks like the language on the menu was a bit contradictory calling it a mandatory gratuity, which could be argued is just a service charge. Of course, it could also be argued that it is still a gratuity. Its not a slam dunk on either side.
This is a fascinating story, btw. Thanks for the link.
MEGAWALLET said: Idiots should have paid with a credit card and charged back the tip (after first complaining in writing directly to the restaurant and demanding the tip money back). They were moronic.
I partially agree with this.
It certainly would have avoided the arrest, and they likely would have gotten their money back.
However, in small chargebacks like this, the banks tend to take the hit and generally do not pursue the merchant. Therefore, the crappy waitress would have been tipped just the same.
For better or worse, they wanted to stand their ground.
I do agree that their complaining in writing to the restaurant would be a more prudent way to do this. Likely the restaurant would give a gift card or coupon of similar or greater value than the gratuity. This requires you to go back to the restaurant (possibly to eat food that has been spit in), and once again, the waitress still gets the original tip. But enough of these, and the waitress would probably get fired.
The story by the paper that originally reported it adds another detail: the restaurant was actually demanding a 22 percent gratuity (which is what $16.35 is on a bill of $73.87. And Leslie Pope never got the salad she ordered. I wonder if she was charged for it?
I'm generally pro-tipping, but I really hope these two stick it to that restaurant and collect damages for false arrest. The entire story is obnoxious.
nasheedb
Senior Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 4:06p
What I don't understand is why didn't the restaurant just eat the $16 loss, instead of making a big deal about it by calling the police. Now the story hit the newspaper, and people will avoid the place because of the poor service.
Xnarg
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 4:11p
wordgirl said: The story by the paper that originally reported it adds another detail: the restaurant was actually demanding a 22 percent gratuity (which is what $16.35 is on a bill of $73.87. And Leslie Pope never got the salad she ordered. I wonder if she was charged for it?
I'm generally pro-tipping, but I really hope these two stick it to that restaurant and collect damages for false arrest. The entire story is obnoxious.Some restaurants which have a mandatory 18% tip rate calculate that after sales tax, which boosts the total somewhat.
We used a restaurant.com coupon at one place which calculated the grand total including sales tax, took 18% of that as the tip, and then subtracted the value of the coupon, which got the tip close to 35%.
lampy2k4
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 4:16p
What is it, penny wise pound foolish?
And I'm not talking about the students. Staff should have given them a dirty look and let them walk away. Now the judge will throw this nonsense case out but searching Google for "Lehigh Pub" brings up Yelp page with 100+ reviews of 1 star. How much business will they lose over these terrible reviews?
wordgirl said: The story by the paper that originally reported it adds another detail: the restaurant was actually demanding a 22 percent gratuity (which is what $16.35 is on a bill of $73.87. And Leslie Pope never got the salad she ordered. I wonder if she was charged for it?
I'm generally pro-tipping, but I really hope these two stick it to that restaurant and collect damages for false arrest. The entire story is obnoxious. I tried to work the math since the 22% figure is also approximate (rounded). It looks like 73.87 + 3.5% = 76.46 76.46 + 18% = 90.22 or equally well, 73.87 + 18% = 87.17. 87.17 + 3.5% = 90.22.
3.5% is too low to be sales tax (what is the rate in PA)? What else could it be? Also, it was a party of 8 (the two defendants plus six more).
We used a restaurant.com coupon at one place which calculated the grand total including sales tax, took 18% of that as the tip, and then subtracted the value of the coupon, which got the tip close to 35%.Actually, I always tip on the value of the meal BEFORE coupons, and - to be frank - after sales tax. (This is usually just a few cents one way or another, no big deal.)
Restaurant etiquette says you tip based on the cost of your meal before any discounts or adjustments, though of course the dollar value of that tip can go up or down depending on the service.
elleve
Ancient Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 4:17p
t60 said: johnnybs said: Interesting post indeed. I've been living overseas now for a couple of years and tip at most a euro or two, and that's for great service! I can't imagine being forced to pay a gratuity for lousy service, especially 18%. Then again, I know what it's like to be a server and get stiffed, but it sounds like their waitress didn't come anywhere close to earning her tip.Or doing her job. Hopefully this doesn't turn into a tipping debate (I've seen my fair share of tipping threads and no-one ever "wins"). Bad move on the restaurant's part though, since they'll have some pretty bad publicity.
Some business owners make irrational emotional decisions. That's why many businesses fail. It looks like this was what happened in this case.
Should the owner have had a clear head, he would have made a business decision and let this go. Too bad he couldn't, now his restaurant has all this negative press over an argument of less than 20 bucks.
Xnarg
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 4:24p
wordgirl said: Xnarg said:
We used a restaurant.com coupon at one place which calculated the grand total including sales tax, took 18% of that as the tip, and then subtracted the value of the coupon, which got the tip close to 35%.Actually, I always tip on the value of the meal BEFORE coupons, and - to be frank - after sales tax. (This is usually just a few cents one way or another, no big deal.)
Restaurant etiquette says you tip based on the cost of your meal before any discounts or adjustments, though of course the dollar value of that tip can go up or down depending on the service.I usually tip on the value of the meal before the coupon, but not on the sales tax, and largely on the quality of service (which was mediocre in the situation mentioned). There were only 3 people in our party, so it wasn't like it was a large group of 6 or 8 or more. I do resent being made to tip on the sales tax before the coupon.
Suppose the total bill is $50 and you have a $25 coupon and sales tax is 10%. This restaurant gave themselves a roughly $50 food + $5 Tax = $55 * 18% = $9.90.
The actual bill was $25 food + $2.50 tax = $27.50. However, I would have tipped 15% of $50, or $7.50. Again, the service was mediocre at best - we actually had to go refill our own water glasses, we got tired of waiting.
I tip 20-25% or more for great service, 15% for mediocre.
uutxs said: wordgirl said: The story by the paper that originally reported it adds another detail: the restaurant was actually demanding a 22 percent gratuity (which is what $16.35 is on a bill of $73.87. And Leslie Pope never got the salad she ordered. I wonder if she was charged for it?
I'm generally pro-tipping, but I really hope these two stick it to that restaurant and collect damages for false arrest. The entire story is obnoxious. I tried to work the math since the 22% figure is also approximate (rounded). It looks like 73.87 + 3.5% = 76.46 76.46 + 18% = 90.22 or equally well, 73.87 + 18% = 87.17. 87.17 + 3.5% = 90.22.
3.5% is too low to be sales tax (what is the rate in PA)? What else could it be? Also, it was a party of 8 (the two defendants plus six more).
It's 22.1 percent of the total.
Sales tax in Bethlehem PA is 6.55 percent - that would be $4.83 on a $73.87 bill if the bill didn't already include tax. That could explain the difference ... except that the story clearly said they were after a 22 percent gratuity, which would imply that the $73.87 either included tax, or the two students were balking at paying tax... in which case you'd think the paper would have noted that.
lampy2k4 said: What is it, penny wise pound foolish?
And I'm not talking about the students. Staff should have given them a dirty look and let them walk away. Now the judge will throw this nonsense case out but searching Google for "Lehigh Pub" brings up Yelp page with 100+ reviews of 1 star. How much business will they lose over these terrible reviews?
LOL go to the photos in the yelp page. Hilarious photo of the table setting and valet service.
ajkghemee
Senior Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 4:30p
This is interesting. I've always wondered what would happen if I didn't pay the "mandatory gratuity". I'm usually a pretty good tipper (at least 20%) if the service is reasonable, but hate it when they tack on extra to my bill and call it gratuity. I should decide what I want to give.
Please keep us updated if you find out anymore news, such as what the court decides. Thanks!
I would now dispute the entire bill with my credit card company and get the full bill refunded. I think the credit card company would agree that the service was so bad that they owe the restaurant nothing.
ajkghemee
Senior Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 4:43p
hahaha at the yelp page. The entire first 3 pages (120 reviews) are people posting today and giving it 1 star. That really sucks for them. Wow, i almost feel bad for them.. they're going out of business over $16. I guess they never heard of the phrase, "the customer is always right!"
Since we are on the topic of tipping, I have a basic question that I hope someone can shed some light on. I normally prefer getting take-out over eating-in, simply because I just feel more comfortable eating at home. So what I would like to know if I am obligated to give a tip on take-outs?
I'm really ambivalent on tipping when I do take-outs. There is this one Thai restaurant that I go to that has a small sign stating that a courtesy tip on take-outs would be highly appreciated. In cases like these, I feel a bit compelled to add a few more $ to my bill, although I don't give the standard %15.
ATLsparty
Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 4:50p
If two wait staff from two different rest. does the same exact tasks, shouldn't the tip amount should be the same? More and more I don't understand the tipping stuff, especially %. Tip should be earned. There were so many times when going out with large group of people, tip is already added on, but service sucked a**. But still charged, and didn't know what to do.
I think sometimes servers at a local diner works so much harder than some of the "up scale" places. But since the total $$$ amount will come a lot less than the up scale places, they get the % of the lower $ amount.
ATLsparty said: If two wait staff from two different rest. does the same exact tasks, shouldn't the tip amount should be the same? More and more I don't understand the tipping stuff, especially %. Tip should be earned. There were so many times when going out with large group of people, tip is already added on, but service sucked a**. But still charged, and didn't know what to do.
I think sometimes servers at a local diner works so much harder than some of the "up scale" places. But since the total $$$ amount will come a lot less than the up scale places, they get the % of the lower $ amount.
Shame shame shame.
This is why I love dining in koreatown. $1 per person tip will suffice.
"The other day, in the mood for greasy, mundane bar food, I dropped in to the Lehigh Pub for lunch. When I walked in, a member of the pub staff said to "please seat yourself," pointing to a brown-and-light-brown sign that said the same. I politely declined, explaining that I preferred to wait near the door because my friend had yet to arrive. The next thing I knew, a Lehigh Pub assistant manager popped out of the drink station brandishing a Taser and fired two prongs into my forehead. I woke in a dark, fetid room in the Lehigh Pub basement, where someone called down from above, "Nobody breaks protocol at the LEHIGH PUB!"
bauzer71487 said: My favorite is the places where the waiters/waitresses aren't even the ones that bring you the food. They bring you the drinks and take your order, then the hosts bring you your food. I don't understand why people expect 15-20% for filling my glass twice and bringing my check. I'd rather give my tip go to the person that brought my food out and asked if everything was the way it's supposed to be.
I thought they shared the tips in situations like that. I know a lot of places the wife and I go to have several "servers" that come and go during the course of a meal, but I am not going to leave each a different tip, just one overall. If I have been erring all these years by leaving only one tip to cover all of the servers, man have I screwed up.
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