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Short Story:

Purchased a washer/dryer at Sears.com with paypal using a credit card on 12/09. I cancelled the $1100 order on 12/10. I didn't receive a refund of the money. Sears says they released the funds for credit on 12/10, 12/23, and 1/9. Paypal says they never got the release. So now it could be another 10 calender days until anything happens. Any suggestions for what to do?


Long Story:
12/09/2009: Purchased a Washer and Dryer for the inlaws for Christmas at Sears.com with a credit card on Paypal. I tried to use bing for CashBack but it didn't work.
12/10/2009: I cancelled the order and tried to use Bing again. This time I didn't use Paypal, I just paid with a credit card. Everything seemed to be fine. I was told "check back in 10 business days and the $1100 refund should be there."
12/23/2009: I was checking to see if the refund was issued to Paypal but it never was. I called Sears and they said "Oh, some of the paperwork wasn't submitted correctly. We'll do it right this time. Check back in 5 business days and the refund should be there. By the way, there are no supervisors here so we can't transfer you anywhere."
12/29/2009: I checked back with Sears for the refund. I was told "oh, it looks like there was a mistake submitting it. I did it right 100% guaranteed. Check back in 5 business days and it will be there."
1/8/2010: Again, still no refund to Paypal. I called AGAIN and was told "Ooops. I'll resubmit the release. It should be done in 2 days."
1/10/2010: Guess what... No refund. I called Sears... same response. "Sorry... we'll get it done right. Just give it 2 more days."
1/12/2010: I called and asked to talk to a Supervisor. She said "Actually, we've released the funds 3 times already. It's Paypal's fault." I told her that I don't believe her. She put me on hold for 20 minutes and came back and said "I'm on with Paypal. Please talk to them." I started explaining everything to Paypal and their response was "Sears never released the funds." It was at this point that the Supervisor (who was quietly listening in) said "Excuse me, this is the Supervisor from Sears. We've released the funds on 12/10, 12/23, AND 1/8. You are the ones holding this up." The Paypal rep stuttered for a second and said "Well, then it has to get escalated to the specialist that deals directly with Sears. I'll submit it for evaluation." I asked how long it would take, and she said "I can't say how long; I can just tell you it's going to happen." I persisted and she said "Well, it can take up to 10 calender days. Check back then if you haven't received the funds."

I went to the paypal site and submitted a dispute of claim on 1/12/2010. The website says "give Sears 20 days to respond."

At this point I'm extremely frustrated. They've got the money tied up in a strange limbo of paperwork and I don't know where to go. I'm not even sure what my options are except at this point to wait 8 more days to see if the money is refunded to my Paypal account.

Can anyone give me any other advise? If anything, I just wanted to put this out as a warning about using Paypal to pay for big ticket items through major retailers. It seems very easy to get "lost in the paperwork" at this point.

UPDATE:
The original charge was funded 100% by a credit card tied to paypal. On 1/14, after getting hit over the head with the obvious suggestion to dispute the charge with the credit card company, I called Visa to dispute the charge. Visa said it will be credited to the account by 1/18 (2 business days from the dispute). Thanks for the advice.

UPDATE 2:
I filed a claim with Paypal on 1/12. I disputed the charge with USBank on 1/14. On 1/15, Paypal sent an email notifying that the funds will be returned to my USBank card.

Member Summary
Most Recent Posts
The electrons were actually at fault.

RedCelicaGT (Jan. 16, 2010 @ 2:14p) |

paypal is the effing devil

watchtower7 (Jan. 16, 2010 @ 6:28p) |

Update:

Paypal's site documentation regarding the episode is this:
Jan 15, 2010 Refund From Sears Holding Corporation $... (more)

ds394 (Jan. 17, 2010 @ 10:15a) |

Quick Summary is created and edited by users like you... Add FAQ's, Links and other Relevant Information by clicking the edit button in the lower right hand corner of this message.
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This is one of a multitude of reasons why I don't deal with PayPal anymore

Dispute with your CC issuer

But what if wasn't credit card but bank transfer or PP balance?

Was there a PP promotion at the time? I don't get why anyone would use Paypal for purchasing of appliance since you lose the extra CC warranty and make any type of return a POA even under ideal circumstance.

ZenNUTS said: But what if wasn't credit card but bank transfer or PP balance?

Was there a PP promotion at the time? I don't get why anyone would use Paypal for purchasing of appliance since you lose the extra CC warranty and make any type of return a POA even under ideal circumstance.
But what if people bothered to read the OP before responding?

From the OP: "12/09/2009: Purchased a Washer and Dryer for the inlaws for Christmas at Sears.com with a credit card on Paypal. I tried to use bing for CashBack but it didn't work."

Seems like an inherently bad idea to use PayPal for any big ticket item.

Dispute with credit card. Easiest way to get it off asap.

OP,

If you used the CC as funding source through Paypal, just dispute straight with your CC issuer. Forget about Paypal and Sears, let your CC issuer do its deed.

Seriously, don't waste your time with Paypal/Sears anymore. I've had similar issues with Paypal in the past and stopped using them as well. Rather than spend so much time and energy trying to fix it with Paypal/Sears, just call your credit card company. You'll be much happier.

Cheapoking said: OP,

If you used the CC as funding source through Paypal, just dispute straight with your CC issuer. Forget about Paypal and Sears, let your CC issuer do its deed.
But that only resolves the credit card charge. You'll still have a negative balance in your paypal account.

OP, you escalated the matter, let it happen. Not sure why you then proceeded to immediately file another dispute - two separate disputes of a single transaction is asking for them to crisscross and cause even more problems.

Not to mention, this mess started because you gave Bing all of 1 day to post your CashBack. If you didnt get it, all you need to do is submit a claim to them, and they'll credit it a couple days once they confirm an order was in fact placed.

Hey guys I stuck my fork into my toaster and got shocked. I blamed the fork who subsequently blamed the toaster who subsequently blamed the electric company.

I've heard a ridiculous number of complaints against sticking a fork into a toaster but I did it anyway. How can I unshock myself?

File dispute with your credit card issuer, you'll be surprise how responsive Paypal will be.

Looks like OP used debit card or checking account. Didn't see any mention of the credit card issuer in the posting, just Paypal and Sears.

"Purchased a Washer and Dryer for the inlaws for Christmas at Sears.com with a credit card on Paypal."

From OP first line.

CC issuer will fix the problem.

Actually, for some reason I didn't think to dispute the darn charge with the credit card I used. I'm going to do that right now.

Thanks for the help... sometimes it takes a bunch of people waving a huge sign in your face before you remember the obvious.

you should of disputed it right away. That would of saved you all this grief..

I would hold off disputing on the CC for 2 weeks till paypal investigates. U will still be within dispute period.

welookgoodcom said: you should of disputed it right away. That would of saved you all this grief..

I would hold off disputing on the CC for 2 weeks till paypal investigates. U will still be within dispute period.


I just got of the phone with my Visa and they said I will receive credit to the account in 2 business days. (The Visa rep was very nice and even said something to the effect of "wow, I use paypal and I'm going to reconsider that after talking to you".)

I understand what you're saying, but I don't want to wait any longer for Paypal to shuffle their feet with this. On 1/12, Paypal's response was "wait 10 days and it should be taken care of"... I do not feel inspired by Paypal that this will happen.

As to the response to the question "Why did you use Paypal to start with"???
I didn't think and just got lazy; hitting the "paypal" button was easier than actually pulling the Visa card out of my wallet. Lesson learned.

ds394 said: welookgoodcom said: you should of disputed it right away. That would of saved you all this grief..

I would hold off disputing on the CC for 2 weeks till paypal investigates. U will still be within dispute period.


I just got of the phone with my Visa and they said I will receive credit to the account in 2 business days. (The Visa rep was very nice and even said something to the effect of "wow, I use paypal and I'm going to reconsider that after talking to you".)

I understand what you're saying, but I don't want to wait any longer for Paypal to shuffle their feet with this. On 1/12, Paypal's response was "wait 10 days and it should be taken care of"... I do not feel inspired by Paypal that this will happen.
So that takes care of the transaction between your credit card and paypal. Doesnt help with the transaction between paypal and Sears.

Once the chargeback hits, paypal will default to collecting the money from the backup funding source on the payment, or pull the funds from your checking account.

Though many people look down on the BBB, and no, not you triple B. I had problems with Sears in the past with a rebate. I tried 6 months to get 150 bucks they owed me. I submitted a complaint with the better business bureau and had a response in about 1 day that my adjustment was on the way. I would suggest going that route if all else fails.

I'll type this in caps and bold for importance:

PAYPAL IS NOT A BANK AND IS NOT SUBJECT TO ANY FINANCIAL REGULATIONS. USE WITH EXTREME CAUTION!!

Look, I can be pretentious too!

I'll type this in caps and bold for importance:

VISA IS NOT A BANK AND DID NOT ISSUE YOU A CREDIT CARD. YOU DIDN'T CALL VISA YOU CALLED YOUR CREDIT CARD BANK.

scrouds said: Look, I can be pretentious too!

I'll type this in caps and bold for importance:

VISA IS NOT A BANK AND DID NOT ISSUE YOU A CREDIT CARD. YOU DIDN'T CALL VISA YOU CALLED YOUR CREDIT CARD BANK.


Actually, I realized this... but I didn't think adding another name to the discussion would add much. However, to be thorough, it's US Bank that holds my credit card.

Or is it more accurate to say "US Bancorp", since they're the actual parent company. Then again, since US Bancorp received 6.6 billion from the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act in the form of warrants and preferred stock... maybe it's kind of like TripleB subsidized the success of the bank and parent company, so I should probably have called HIM.

Nonetheless, I'm curious to see how Paypal responds to this situation and whether Glitch99's warning comes true. I'll keep things updated here as they evolve.

I use my AMEX blue CC whenever possible on big ticket items since it will double the warranty.

But if I do have to use paypal, I make sure and fund it with my credit card (it always tries to use my bank and I change it over)- keeps me safe and I get some bonus CashBack

Never use Paypal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I bought a wireless headset from Sears using Paypal on blackfriday and canceled the order same day, I did not see the credit in my Paypal account, rather got a check back from Sears after 15 days. This was 2nd mess up for me while using paypal.

Lesson learned, never use paypal except for your eBay txns.

I'm sure you have realized by now, do not use Paypal for purchases like this. It sounds like you have found a resolution.
I thought I was being "good" by paying with existing Paypal funds for a purchase online at PacSun. I mean really, I thought they were
somewhat reputable. Items purchased online, using Paypal, must be returned via mail and NOT in store. And so, my nightmare began.
6+ weeks and I cannot tell you how many phone calls, online chats and disputes I had going. All over a whopping $80. My dispute with Paypal was
immediately found in PacSun's favor because they did "ship the package". CORRECT, but not the items they had described on their site. I was not pleased at all. I guess in the end, I had badgered PacSun's reps enough and they eventually credited my account, but let me tell you, NEVER EVER again!!!!!
My story is small beans compared to yours, but I hope it helps someone else reading to be aware that this does happen!!

I don't understand all the negativity towards PayPal. Sears did not properly process a refund - it's as simple as that. The situation would be the same if the OP used a credit card directly with Sears, and after weeks of promises for a refund, one has yet to be issued. The problem appears to be that PayPal is a recent addition to Sear's payment systems, so their backend systems for issuing refunds or releases on holds have bugs to be worked out. OP did the right thing by contacting the CC to file dispute after getting nowhere with Sears and PayPal. I would have done the exact same thing.

gatorkids said: I'm sure you have realized by now, do not use Paypal for purchases like this. It sounds like you have found a resolution.
I thought I was being "good" by paying with existing Paypal funds for a purchase online at PacSun. I mean really, I thought they were
somewhat reputable. Items purchased online, using Paypal, must be returned via mail and NOT in store. And so, my nightmare began.
6+ weeks and I cannot tell you how many phone calls, online chats and disputes I had going. All over a whopping $80. My dispute with Paypal was
immediately found in PacSun's favor because they did "ship the package". CORRECT, but not the items they had described on their site. I was not pleased at all. I guess in the end, I had badgered PacSun's reps enough and they eventually credited my account, but let me tell you, NEVER EVER again!!!!!
My story is small beans compared to yours, but I hope it helps someone else reading to be aware that this does happen!!
Don't know whether to laugh or cry. PayPal is notorious for siding with buyers in cases of items that are "significantly not as described". If you filed a "item not received" claim, that's an entirely different claim type, one which the seller will win by simply showing a tracking number. Had you followed proceedures and correctly explained that the item you received was not as described, PayPal would have granted you a full refund after you showed them a tracking number of shipping the items received back to the seller. Failing that, you could have then filed a dispute with CC, which would have followed the *exact* same guidelines for handling this dispute.

And the policy of havin to return via mail is a PacSun policy, not a PayPal policy, so attributing that aspect of your frustrating experience to PayPal is also irrational.

tripleB said: Hey guys I stuck my fork into my toaster and got shocked.

Not too surprising. It does help to explain some of the manifested symptoms.

MaxRC said: gatorkids said: I'm sure you have realized by now, do not use Paypal for purchases like this. It sounds like you have found a resolution.
I thought I was being "good" by paying with existing Paypal funds for a purchase online at PacSun. I mean really, I thought they were
somewhat reputable. Items purchased online, using Paypal, must be returned via mail and NOT in store. And so, my nightmare began.
6+ weeks and I cannot tell you how many phone calls, online chats and disputes I had going. All over a whopping $80. My dispute with Paypal was
immediately found in PacSun's favor because they did "ship the package". CORRECT, but not the items they had described on their site. I was not pleased at all. I guess in the end, I had badgered PacSun's reps enough and they eventually credited my account, but let me tell you, NEVER EVER again!!!!!
My story is small beans compared to yours, but I hope it helps someone else reading to be aware that this does happen!!
Don't know whether to laugh or cry. PayPal is notorious for siding with buyers in cases of items that are "significantly not as described".

There is no PayPal SNAD coverage for items not bought on eBay, if he filed a SNAD complain he would have immediately lost. Buyer in this case has no recourse, buying using PayPal balances off eBay is never safe.

Sears and Paypal seriously need to fix this!
I bought something online (~$50) at Sears around Christmas time, chose instore pickup, paid with Paypal (funded by CC of course). I went to pick up the item, saw it was crappy quality, and said I want to return it. At first, the salesclerk was not sure how to process the refund, and called the manager. The manager insisted I have to return it through Sears Online. I said no way, Sears is supposed to accept returns instore, I wont leave till you figure out how to refund me. The manager tried a few things, called some corporate number and refunded cash.

NEVER EVER EVER USE PAYPAL.

EVER.

No to hi-jack the OP, but close to the subject; Has anyone had issues as such using Google check out?

I am having a similar problem with Sears and Paypal right now...only, not $1100. They have two holds on my paypal account for a product they're supposedly sold out of. The money came from my PP balance...and, in error, Sears placed TWO holds for the one order (one through Kmart and one through Sears). It's ridiculous!! They can hold my money hostage until Feb. 6 for something that took them seconds to initiate (Feb. 6 is when the hold runs out. They will swear up and down they didn't charge the account...but, SOMEONE, somewhere is "holding" my money because I sure as hell can't access it because of this hold). Yeah, never again using PayPal for anything but small-time eBay junk...but I am amazed there is no recourse. Companies normally can't charge you for an item until they mail it...how is it they can hold funds for a product they can't seem to produce?!?

MaxRC said: I don't understand all the negativity towards PayPal. Sears did not properly process a refund - it's as simple as that. The situation would be the same if the OP used a credit card directly with Sears, and after weeks of promises for a refund, one has yet to be issued. The problem appears to be that PayPal is a recent addition to Sear's payment systems, so their backend systems for issuing refunds or releases on holds have bugs to be worked out. OP did the right thing by contacting the CC to file dispute after getting nowhere with Sears and PayPal. I would have done the exact same thing.

Yeah I don't think Paypal really did anything wrong. Sears dropped the ball over and over again.

I think a better lesson than don't use paypal is don't buy things from Sears.

I bought a tv from Sears several years ago on deal around Christmas. Only it turned out they did not have any more. I ended up with a better deal anyways, so the order was canceled. It was a hassle getting my money back. Of course for some reason years later I got a warranty renewal notice from Sears on the tv, that I never even bought.

Update:
Within 15 hours of disputing the claim with my credit card company, I received a notification from Paypal:

We have concluded our investigation into your claim. You have received a refund via PayPal in the amount of $1,113.01 USD.

So I have two ways to think of this:
1. Disputing the claim with the credit card company caused Paypal to resolve the matter quickly.
2. After 3 days of not hearing a word from Paypal, there was a pleasant coincidence that Paypal suddenly resolved the issue.

As to "who is at fault"... I'm tending to think this really falls into a nice little limbo both companies can throw paperwork into: Sears claims they processed the refund, Paypal claims they never got the paperwork to process it. Since the level of competence from both companies is completely suspect in my mind, I'm willing to call it a toss up.

Nonetheless, I will be writing a strongly worded letter to Sears hoping to get some kind of compensation (2 hours phone time, 35 days of interest on the credit card, a pretty upset repeat customer, etc. etc.) I would consider writing a letter to Paypal but my impression is Paypal will not give any compensation for my loss (Unless someone has heard otherwise? Let me know!).

why do you pay cc intereest? Dont tell us you are buying stuff you cant afford to payoff in full during the grace period

ds394 said: Update:
Within 15 hours of disputing the claim with my credit card company, I received a notification from Paypal:

We have concluded our investigation into your claim. You have received a refund via PayPal in the amount of $1,113.01 USD.

So I have two ways to think of this:
1. Disputing the claim with the credit card company caused Paypal to resolve the matter quickly.
2. After 3 days of not hearing a word from Paypal, there was a pleasant coincidence that Paypal suddenly resolved the issue.

As to "who is at fault"... I'm tending to think this really falls into a nice little limbo both companies can throw paperwork into: Sears claims they processed the refund, Paypal claims they never got the paperwork to process it. Since the level of competence from both companies is completely suspect in my mind, I'm willing to call it a toss up.

Nonetheless, I will be writing a strongly worded letter to Sears hoping to get some kind of compensation (2 hours phone time, 35 days of interest on the credit card, a pretty upset repeat customer, etc. etc.) I would consider writing a letter to Paypal but my impression is Paypal will not give any compensation for my loss (Unless someone has heard otherwise? Let me know!).
I'd call up your credit card and "withdraw" the dispute saying it has been resolved, just to be sure it doesnt cross paths with paypal's refund and cause more headaches.

SUCKISSTAPLES said: why do you pay cc intereest? Dont tell us you are buying stuff you cant afford to payoff in full during the grace periodHe was charged twice for one purchase, so I assume he let the balance remain in anticipation of the refund posting (not realizing it would take so long). He should've paid off the balance to avoid interest charges, and just dealt with the credit balance once the refund did come through.

Skipping 7 Messages...
Update:

Paypal's site documentation regarding the episode is this:
Jan 15, 2010 Refund From Sears Holding Corporation $1,113.01

USBank card's online site I have the following:
01/15/10 Credit Adj- Cardholder Dispute 85 $1,113.01

So the credit card is credited from my filing of the dispute on 1/14. Paypal seems to have refunded my money based on the dispute to charges I filed with them. The question remaining is whether Glitch99 has foretold the future:
Once the chargeback hits, paypal will default to collecting the money from the backup funding source on the payment, or pull the funds from your checking account.

To be clear, Paypal has stated that they refunded the account based on my complaint to Paypal. USBank refunded it based on my dispute claimed with USBank. At this point, the credit card only has credit for the USBank dispute. It's still possible (likely?) that the issue is closed at this point. However, I'm going to have to watch to see if I get a redundant refund from Paypal to the credit card.



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