We had a hailstorm in June 2009. We dragged our feet a little bit and waited a couple of months before filing a homeowner’s claim. During that time we witnessed most, if not all of our surrounding neighbors get their roofs and/or siding replaced. There were plenty of roofing gypsies around, but we had three different local reputable roofing contractors take a look and each of them told us that our roof sustained hail damage.
We chose one of the roofing companies to help us work with the insurance company (State Farm). Unfortunately, the contractor and the insurance adjuster scheduled and held the inspection without our knowledge and no one from our family was present. My wife got home after the adjustor had prepared his findings. The contractor had already left. The adjustor found no damage to the roof; only the to the gutters, garage door, and AC unit. During a follow up phone call with the roofing company representative who had been present, he stated that they just didn’t see any hail damage on the roof. We should wait a few months, the freezing and thawing of winter might make it show up better in the spring. The owner of the company, who had originally inspected our house and prepared the repair proposal didn’t return our phone call asking for a good explanation as to why it was denied, or why the discrepancy between his assessment and the adjuster’s assessment.
We then asked for a reinspection and chose a different contractor to be present and speak on our behalf. After several delays due to weather we had the 2nd inspection last weekend and were told again by the 2nd adjuster that there was no hail damage to the roof.
I told the adjuster that I was not satisfied and wanted to take this up another level. He said the company would send out a letter regarding arbitration. We received a letter from State farm this week outlining arbitration. I’ve attached that letter to this post. I found it interesting to note that it mentions that the results of the arbitration will be binding on the insurance company but not binding on us. Could a negative result in arbitration negatively affect any further action we would choose to take?
The roof is less than three years old as it was replaced from a previous hailstorm in 2006. As a result of that hailstorm there were numerous complaints and an investigation by the Indiana Department of Insurance about State Farm not paying claims. There also is a class action lawsuit pending form the 2006 hailstorm.
Registering a complaint with the State department of Insurance. Should I do this before it goes to arbitration? What are the pros/cons of this? Right now I don’t see any cons of doing this right away.
Do I need to hire an independent adjuster instead of the roofing contractor to represent us at the arbitration hearing? From the experience with both inspections the roofing contractors were unable to argue successfully any points with the insurance adjusters so hiring someone else may be the way to go. How do I find someone like this?
Would it be helpful to contact the neighbors and verify that they have had their roofs replaced by their insurance companies as a result of this 2009 hailstorm? My line of thinking with this is that if all of my surrounding neighbors had their roofs successfully replaced through insurance, how was our roof not damaged? Is our roof somehow better than everyone else’s?
I have no experience with going through arbitration. Am I limited to choosing one of the two arbitration firms mentioned in the letter? What do I need to be aware of or look out for? Is this the logical next step?
I realize a similar topic has been discussed a few months back in this thread here but I thought my situation was different enough to warrant it’s own thread..
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posted: Jan. 27, 2010 @ 12:07p
dcg9381
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jan. 27, 2010 @ 12:25p
Do you know what you're looking for in regard to a composite roof and hail damage? My understanding is that it's X impact points in Y area.
Get a legitimate non-storm chaser contractor up there to have a look. Get a written opinion (hopefully for free).
I've lived in a neighborhood where my neighbors roofs have been replaced, but mine is fine.. seems to be a luck of the draw, roof design, wind direction... It's possible that your roof isn't damaged.
Can't help you with arbitration at all, but just a thought. Were the neighbors roofs only 3 years old? I would expect a newer roof to survive a hail storm much better than one that is older.
It of course is not surprising that the roofer companies said you need a new roof. Even the so called reputable companies are still looking for jobs and money. If possible have one of the companies prepare a report for you (with pictures).
Your roof is 3 years old, why are you trying to get another one if it isnt damsaged?
Just bc your neighbors got new ones?
I could understand if it was 10-20 years old and you wanted a nice new free roof, but you really have no need for it, and since there is no way to pocket the money why not just leave it alone?
SUCKISSTAPLES said: Your roof is 3 years old, why are you trying to get another one if it isnt damsaged?
Just bc your neighbors got new ones?
I could understand if it was 10-20 years old and you wanted a nice new free roof, but you really have no need for it, and since there is no way to pocket the money why not just leave it alone?
SIS is right again,
Most shingles can live through hail storms, when they are under 5 years of age.
Most likely your roof isn't damaged, it is meant to protect your house, just overtime UV and other environmental damage break it down and so a hail storm will damage it.
Honestly you are being are being a baby about this and trying to get something that is not owed to you...you are just wasting your time now.
What may have happened is that your roof resisted hail damage because it was recent and probably higher quality than many of your neighbors' aging ones. And if you got a storm-chaser as only appraisal that came positive for hail damage, that's not a trustworthy data point either.
We had a similar case. Neighbor one street away from us had his roof redone with good new dimensional shingles when they moved in two years before the storm. Our roof was 15+ yr old and we're only literally 200 ft away with about same tree coverage. Ours was replaced right away. Inspector came up, stayed one minute on roof and had seen enough. Theirs, they had two independent inspections on top of adjuster to confirm that there was no damage to it. Of course storm chasers told them the roof had to be replaced.
Try to get free appraisals from established roofing contractors. If they still have plenty of business from that storm, they may not push it to claim that they was actual hail damage if there was little evidence of it. If they do find damage, while they're up on roof, ask them if they'd mind taking pictures of the damage they found. It's usually hard to tell especially if it's light damage but it'd be a bit more compelling this way.
dcg9381 said: Do you know what you're looking for in regard to a composite roof and hail damage? My understanding is that it's X impact points in Y area.
No I don’t know what State Farm’s standard is for this.
dcg9381 said: Get a legitimate non-storm chaser contractor up there to have a look. Get a written opinion (hopefully for free).
We did. As I stated in the OP we stayed away from the storm chaser and chose three local reputable contractors to take a look at the roof. All three of them told us there was damage. We got written estimates to replace the roof from two of them.
dcg9381 said: I've lived in a neighborhood where my neighbors roofs have been replaced, but mine is fine.. seems to be a luck of the draw, roof design, wind direction... It's possible that your roof isn't damaged.
There is no question that hail hit the roof because of the other damage to our house and vehicles. The only question is did the hail actually damage the roof. I have three parties that say it was, and one that says it wasn’t. At the second inspection the adjuster did say that the roof was damaged but it wasn’t due to hail. He said something along the lines of they must have installed it badly. However, these marks were not visible earlier.
I completely understand that the roofing contractors are going to want to say that there is damage to get the work, and the insurance company is going to want to say that there isn’t damage as it affects their bottom line when they have to pay out. I even told both the contractor and the adjuster that.
It doesn’t help that it is known that State Farm was brought under investigation and facing a class action from the storm three years ago for not paying out claims.
JorgeBurrito said: Can't help you with arbitration at all, but just a thought. Were the neighbors roofs only 3 years old? I would expect a newer roof to survive a hail storm much better than one that is older.
Yes, the neighbor’s roofs were 3 years old as well.
SUCKISSTAPLES said: Your roof is 3 years old, why are you trying to get another one if it isnt damsaged?
Just bc your neighbors got new ones?
I could understand if it was 10-20 years old and you wanted a nice new free roof, but you really have no need for it, and since there is no way to pocket the money why not just leave it alone?
How do I know that it isn’t damaged? I have different parties telling me different things. I really don’t want to put on a new roof if it isn’t necessary. I have a $2,000 deductible on my policy, so I am not trying to get something for nothing here. If it is damaged, then it needs to be replaced.
The neighbor’s roofs are a factor here, but certainly not the only factor. Is it reasonable to believe that everyone in every direction from me sustained damage to their roofs but not ours? Is it also reasonable to believe that our roof is somehow better constructed than everyone else’s?
wackyrabbit said:
SIS is right again,
Most shingles can live through hail storms, when they are under 5 years of age.
Most likely your roof isn't damaged, it is meant to protect your house, just overtime UV and other environmental damage break it down and so a hail storm will damage it.
Honestly you are being are being a baby about this and trying to get something that is not owed to you...you are just wasting your time now.
Are you suggesting that I blindly accept the adjuster’s assessment and ignore the other evidence that points in the other direction? I cannot believe that this is the correct course of action especially when State Farm has been guilty of this sort of thing in the past. I’d really like a third party to give their assessment. Someone who does not have a stake in this. Someone who will not gain nor lose anything either way.
Shandril said: What may have happened is that your roof resisted hail damage because it was recent and probably higher quality than many of your neighbors' aging ones. And if you got a storm-chaser as only appraisal that came positive for hail damage, that's not a trustworthy data point either.
I specifically stated that we did NOT have a storm chaser examine our roof. We purposefully chose local, established firms to assess the situation. We did not feel that any storm chaser was going to be reputable. Again everyone’s roofs are the same age here due to the 2006 storm.
Shandril said: Try to get free appraisals from established roofing contractors. If they still have plenty of business from that storm, they may not push it to claim that they was actual hail damage if there was little evidence of it. If they do find damage, while they're up on roof, ask them if they'd mind taking pictures of the damage they found. It's usually hard to tell especially if it's light damage but it'd be a bit more compelling this way.
That’s exactly what we did. We haven’t gotten them to gather documentation yet, because it didn’t seem necessary at the time. We will definitely get them to photo document everything at this point.
The storm chasers would probably have done a better job at getting the claim approved...as long as you didnt sign anything with them , you could have used someone else. You should have filed when everyone else did and not waited.
Find a public insurance adjuster to help you with your claim, if they cant use an attorney. You are likely to lose at arbitration.
markcoy
New Member
posted: Jan. 27, 2010 @ 11:00p
Dude, get, I dont care who, a storm chaser or your grandma, to TAKE PICTURES,,,,,,,,pictures are worth a thousand words.. I get roofs bought all the time, the adjuster says there is no damage/.... they are usually stupid adjusters, who just got out of school, and dont know crap.......or their old and been around to long, and if there are not holes in your roof, they say their is no damage.. read your policy, take them to appraisel, they are suppose to get you back to PRE HAIL condition.....state farm are cupcakes, try getting something out of allstate..maybe you need a stormchaser, I bet they will get it bought for you!!!!!!
markcoy
New Member
posted: Jan. 27, 2010 @ 11:01p
Thats what I was going to say..
Zaos
Shopaholic Member
posted: Jan. 27, 2010 @ 11:16p
Is there any downside to a roof with light or minor damage due to hail?
It is interesting that the adjuster said there was damage to so much, but not the roof. How do the roof vents look (assuming you don't have a ridge vent)? Most vents here are metal and they will have dimpling if there is hail damage on the roof. Also remember that there has to be a certain percentage of damaged shingles before the insurance will replace the roof.
I have to say that the whole hail damage thing here in Indiana is very shady. One person gets a claim processed, then the whole neighborhood needs new shingles. I have seen insurance companies pay out when they shouldn't, and other companies ignore claims.
Since we have a good hail storm every year or two, is it really worth it to constantly file a claim and get a new roof? Your rates go up, and you waste a ton of perfectly good roofing materials. With such new shingles underneath, the insurance company can also claim there is no need for a tear-off, so then you have multiple layers of shingles (which is heavy, more costly to remove next year when there is another hail storm, and devalues the home). Unless the storm literally tore up the shingles and blew half into the neighbor's yard, I would not be so eager to file a claim.
(On a side note, have you shopped for rates lately? State Farm is pretty expensive in Indiana.)
dcg9381
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Jan. 28, 2010 @ 9:45a
We had a hail storm last year. It was significant. It broke windshields on cars (not mine). Hail blew straight through the composite skylights of my barn. I had a brand new roof up. Some of the venting took pretty good dings, but I got up on the roof with a roof guy. He explained that they look for X impact points in a certain amount of area. My roof didn't have some deterministic number of impact points.
computerquest said: It is interesting that the adjuster said there was damage to so much, but not the roof. How do the roof vents look (assuming you don't have a ridge vent)? Most vents here are metal and they will have dimpling if there is hail damage on the roof.
At the 2nd inspection they agreed to replace the ridge vent, which has no exposed metal and is covered by shingles.
computerquest said: I have to say that the whole hail damage thing here in Indiana is very shady. One person gets a claim processed, then the whole neighborhood needs new shingles. I have seen insurance companies pay out when they shouldn't, and other companies ignore claims.
Since we have a good hail storm every year or two, is it really worth it to constantly file a claim and get a new roof? Your rates go up, and you waste a ton of perfectly good roofing materials. With such new shingles underneath, the insurance company can also claim there is no need for a tear-off, so then you have multiple layers of shingles (which is heavy, more costly to remove next year when there is another hail storm, and devalues the home). Unless the storm literally tore up the shingles and blew half into the neighbor's yard, I would not be so eager to file a claim.
(On a side note, have you shopped for rates lately? State Farm is pretty expensive in Indiana.)
I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a hailstorm like this every year or couple of years. You can never depend on the weather. I’m also well aware of the risks of filing claims. I’m willing to live with that risk. But if the roof is truly damaged, it needs to be fixed. If it’s not, then it doesn’t. If an independent third party who has nothing to gain or lose on whether or not the roof is damaged is of the opinion that the roof is fine, then I’m agreeable to that.
I haven’t shopped for rates recently, and when I did it was for auto, not home. I know State Farm is expensive. The last time I did shop all of the discounts I was receiving for auto made up for the difference in price vs. starting out as a new customer somewhere else. I don’t know about homeowner’s.
^^ I thought people said in an earlier hailstorm/roof thread that a claim for hail damage to the roof was not considered a ding against your homeowner's insurance like other claims. maybe i remember incorrectly.
Most shingles can live through hail storms, when they are under 5 years of age.
Most likely your roof isn't damaged, it is meant to protect your house, just overtime UV and other environmental damage break it down and so a hail storm will damage it.
Honestly you are being are being a baby about this and trying to get something that is not owed to you...you are just wasting your time now.
Why the change in opinion from this post 3 months ago on the same topic?
bigdaddycincinnati said: ^^ I thought people said in an earlier hailstorm/roof thread that a claim for hail damage to the roof was not considered a ding against your homeowner's insurance like other claims. maybe i remember incorrectly.
I read that too in other archived hail threads. I personally didn't see an increase after making a claim for the 2006 storm. I also have heard anecdotally that one claim won't kill you but multiple ones could raise your rates.
To make a long story short: A friend (really) filed a claim in Indiana for hail damage this summer. The adjustor came out, did not even climb the ladder, approved the claim and the insurance cut a check. Her insurance went up 50% the next day. My dad, an expert (according to the industry and the courts) went out and climbed the ladder. He looked at the roof and said "What hail damage?" When the friend called the insurer and said that she wanted to return the check and have the rates lowered to the previous amount(after explaining what happened)she was told no. The was with a reputable nationwide insurance company. I have watched many homeowners in our HOA replace the roof, and listened to them complain later that their rates went up.
In the years that I have lived in IN we have had a "damaging" hailstorm in my area about every 2 years. You may not be able to predict it, but it does not seem avoidable either. Maybe I just got "lucky."
BTW home and auto are usually cheaper when underwritten by one company (multiline discount), rather than shopping each seperately.
bigdaddycincinnati said: ^^ I thought people said in an earlier hailstorm/roof thread that a claim for hail damage to the roof was not considered a ding against your homeowner's insurance like other claims. maybe i remember incorrectly.
Remember to tell your agent that you read that piece of wisdom in the archives of a finance subforum of an internet grocery coupon trading site that doesn't do grocery coupon trading.
I'm sure s/he's under so much pressure to book business that s/he will enjoy the levity.
computerquest said: To make a long story short: A friend (really) filed a claim in Indiana for hail damage this summer. The adjustor came out, did not even climb the ladder, approved the claim and the insurance cut a check. Her insurance went up 50% the next day. My dad, an expert (according to the industry and the courts) went out and climbed the ladder. He looked at the roof and said "What hail damage?" When the friend called the insurer and said that she wanted to return the check and have the rates lowered to the previous amount(after explaining what happened)she was told no. The was with a reputable nationwide insurance company. I have watched many homeowners in our HOA replace the roof, and listened to them complain later that their rates went up.
Okay computerquest, who is your dad and can I hire him to give an honest assessment?
SUCKISSTAPLES said: Find a public insurance adjuster to help you with your claim, if they cant use an attorney. You are likely to lose at arbitration.
Will a public adjuster even touch such a small claim? I’ll have to call someone and find out.
Why would you say that I’m likely to lose at arbitration other than the fact that they’re experienced and do this sort of thing all the time and I’m a nobody?
Am I limited to choosing one of the two arbitration firms mentioned in the letter? What do I need to be aware of or look out for? Is this the only option I have for going forward?
Two interesting things about the arbitration. The letter states “State Farm agrees to pay for the expense of the hearing, including but not limited to the entire expense for the arbitrator.”
How much does arbitration cost?
The letter also states, “Be reminded if we arbitrate the dispute, the arbitrator’s decision will be binding on State Farm but non-binding on the policyholders.”
Is this normal for this sort of dispute? I was fully expecting any arbitration to be binding on all parties.
arbitrators are in the companys pocket, they rule for the company 90 percent of the time why bother with it knowing yiou are likely to lose? Small claims court would have better chance at winning and they usually cant prevent you from choosing small claims even with an arbitration provision
BEEFjerKAY said: bigdaddycincinnati said: ^^ I thought people said in an earlier hailstorm/roof thread that a claim for hail damage to the roof was not considered a ding against your homeowner's insurance like other claims. maybe i remember incorrectly.
Remember to tell your agent that you read that piece of wisdom in the archives of a finance subforum of an internet grocery coupon trading site that doesn't do grocery coupon trading.
I'm sure s/he's under so much pressure to book business that s/he will enjoy the levity.
Why do you spend so much time on here then? There are actually professionals here (in the insurance industry as well) who post valuable and accurate information that isn't known by the general public. I think it may be worth it to the OP to at least try to confirm whether a hail claim is treated as a regular claim.
huntstyle82
New Member
posted: Feb. 9, 2010 @ 10:55a
Kettledrum, I own a roofing company here in Indianapolis and I focus on storm damage. Without knowing which 3 contractors you chose, I can't say for sure, but if they were normal retail roofing contractors, and not storm damage specialists, it's likely they have no idea what they are looking for when it comes to damage, nor do they have any idea how to talk to the adjuster. Some of those storm chasers probably would have done a better job for you, and you still would have gotten a quality install. Not all of them are bad! Most adjusters are well trained in how to judge the experience level of the contractor, and if they believe they can get away with a denial with little to no resistance from the contractor, they will do so. Considering that your contractor couldn't give you a good reason as to why they denied the claim, it doesn't sound like he/she is very knowledgeable. Also, you are supposed to receive a denial in writing from the insurance company explaining why they are not covering the damage.
As for State Farm's standards, on a newer roof like yours, it is 8 hits per square. As others have said, you really need pictures to show the damage. The hits will not be obvious, especially on a new roof. However, considering the fact they are paying for new shingle over style ridge vent, gutters, siding and a garage door, I find it hard to believe there is no damage to your roof! It takes a pretty good impact to damage a garage door!
If anyone's insurance rates are going up following a storm damage claim, EVERYONE's rates in the area are going up. Damage that is beyond your control, or an "act of God" cannot increase your rates. However, with multiple hailstorms in this area, the insurance company may deem the area a higher risk to insure, therefore raising premiums across the board. They pay out over $1 billion per year in storm damage claims... it is a figure that is worked into their budget. From my observations, it seems as though we ARE getting more and more damaging storms across the country every year. Add to that the fact that homeowners and contractors alike are catching on to this meaning indemnification is owed to the policyholder based on the contract, and you see more and more claims every year. So of course they will raise rates so they don't lose money!
As someone else posted, one claim won't hurt you, but it's possible they will raise your rates or even drop coverage if you are making a claim every year. I felt like I could possibly get my mother a new roof, but she has made a claim every year since that 2006 storm (though no funds were paid), and I didn't want her to risk losing coverage, so I just did a repair.
Kettledrum, I'd be happy to look at your roof for free once this snow clears up. I'll give you an honest opinion, under no obligation to have me do the work. Anything beyond a look and opinion though, and I've gotta have a contract or charge you!
contact@cicadaroofing.com
rzyzzy
Senior Member
posted: Feb. 10, 2010 @ 11:14a
SUCKISSTAPLES said: arbitrators are in the companys pocket, they rule for the company 90 percent of the time why bother with it knowing yiou are likely to lose? Small claims court would have better chance at winning and they usually cant prevent you from choosing small claims even with an arbitration provision
My experience on the corporate side of things is just the opposite. Arbitration is binding on the company and not on the customer - So the customer presents their case and has a chance at winning. If they don't like the results, they file suit... another chance to win.
FWIW, some states are tracking the decisions of the arbitrators, I had a BBB case where an investigator from the state sat in and monitored the whole process - they were surveying claims versus results. If no one ever wins arbitration, the state can step in and zing the arbitrator.
Many people might get worn down in the process and quit, but many companies "give up" too. Filing an arbitration claim, then a claim/complaint with the state regulator, then sending grumpy mail to the corporate office, followed by a civil suit, BBB complaints, etc - you really aren't powerless if you've been wronged...
I can't believe a contractor wouldn't show you the damage if it was present - seems like they'd take pics and show them to you if they couldn't walk you up there personally...
FWIW, your insurance may go up after filing a roof claim, but when I was shopping my house insurance recently, many companies had "new roof discounts" as well...
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