Issuing Student Visas For Anger and Loss

The current system of issuing US Visas to international students is upsetting and causes a financial loss to the United States.

Here's the situation in bullet points:

US Universities cannot find qualified US students to enter programs so they look overseas.

When looking overseas, to a country like China or India with 1 Billion people each, then a US University gets to select from the top 0.000001% of people in those countries and reject the other 99.9999999% so of course (due to Selection Bias) those international students are going to appear "better" than many US ones.

International Students are issued temporary student visas and many times cannot qualify for a permanent work visa after graduation, especially in the post September 11th era. Thus they take their knowledge back to their country.

Many times International Students borrow from US banks, and then default when moving back to their country after school.

US Universities receive ridiculous levels of government funding, including tax breaks. This is the same tax-payer money that is used to extend "free tuition" to International Students.

In exchange for "free tuition" many universities require International graduate-level Students to work as Teaching Assistants and teach an undergraduate class. In most cases, these students have a poor ability to speak English. This does not mean they are stupid, because many Americans speak only one language. It does, however, mean they shouldn't be teaching. It's a cycle that keeps US students "stupid" because they cannot effectively learn from someone who doesn't speak English.

Universities love International Students because they are used to boost average standardized testing entry scores. When they get to pick from the top 0.0000001% of 2 Billion Indians/Chinese people, they get nearly perfect GMAT/GRE/SAT scores. Universities are ranked based on the average score of incoming students. (Keep in mind, it's very possible to score high on these scores and still speak English poorly.

Solution Time

1) Require that any international student on a US Visa becomes a US Citizen. This means if they want to stay in the US with their new knowledge, they can. It also means if they renounce their US Citizenship, they are still required to pay income taxes for 10 to 20 years.

2) Require international students to have their tuition paid by their home country. Just because the average Indian or Chinese person is piss poor, doesn't mean their government isn't sitting on a ton of cash.

3) Change the metrics for universities so that standardized testing scores CANNOT be published. The purposes of these scores is supposed to be to allow admission to select the best students. Instead it's being used to promote the school. Require that all scores be kept confidential outside of the admissions officer and the student themselves.

4) Stop giving tax breaks to universities. They waste it on new football fields and fountains and crap. Any tax-break needs to be directly for an educational expense. The campus should be a concrete slab with bare white walls in all the classrooms. It's a place for education, not fun and parties. In the free market, a university should be able to start up with whatever they want, but not at the tax-payers expense.

5) Stop allowing banks to lend to foreigners. In a free market, banks should do what they want. When billions of tax-payer dollars are bailing out banks, then its everyone's problem. Give the international student US Citizenship and a SSN and let the banks lend away.

Like usual – posting about toping you have no idea.

You seem to think that the products of education should stay here. We have a education bubble, and we need more then just americans to feed it.

Or, as another alternative: change the existing H1B program to give priority to people who graduated from U.S. universities. This will further increase the value of an American diploma to foreign students, many of whom pay full unsubidized tuition. It will also increase the number of applications from people who want to become permanent immigrants. Students intending to immigrate permanently are less likely to walk away from American debts.

It might also be slightly more politically palatable than some of your suggestions.

TheRealRayCharles said: tripleB said:
...
In most cases, these students have a poor ability to speak English.
...


svap said: Like usual – posting about toping you have no idea.

Hitting a little to close to home for you svap?

I hope you are not playing lottery.

Let see how close:
I am US citizen
Have one kid in Medical School
Have another kid graduating from one top private university and was accepted to medical school last September.
I have enough income do not qualify for any financial aid. (Thanks for some merit scholarships)

The students are not guarented funding from a US bank until a co signer who is a US citizen is willing to sign the dotted line... these students pay SSN and medicare at most universities. Technically they are not supposed to pay this however the universities suck them dry. Also they pay out of state and compete for each available position. they have only 3 months to find a job on their OPT (after school) otherwise all the money they spent will be lost.
And remember US is a super power because its a melting pot and attracts the best talent. The moment people stop coming to the US (which I think is happening with better jobs in India and China) the future will not seem bright

JTFH said: Last time I checked native born Americans have little to no interest in hard sciences... We are too busy getting BS degrees like MBAs, psychology, english lit, sociology.

I don't think I've ever seen an immigrant student pursuing one of those "degrees"

Because the degrees they usually pursue (eg hard sciences) have concepts that transcend language, so it's easier for the immigrant to have a more thorough background in the field (and continue down that path). Degrees that require native-level communication skills tend to correlate to the native-born students.

The international instructors in my business cirriculum were American, English, and I think a Spaniard. But go over to math or chemistry, and the instructors were at least 50% foreign--usually Asian or Russian, where the math transcends the Roman alphabet.

It's not an indicator of which degrees are valuable and which ones are "crap."

JTFH said: Last time I checked native born Americans have little to no interest in hard sciences... We are too busy getting BS degrees like MBAs, psychology, english lit, sociology.

I don't think I've ever seen an immigrant student pursuing one of those "degrees"

These are not Bachelor of Science degrees!

International students are usually here for higher degree (Master of PhD) and it is less likely for highly-educated them to walk away from unsecured debt because their culture teaches them more about economic responsibility and conscience.
The current US immigration is poorly designed. Illegals got amnesty and free handouts (like the VVVIP's aunt living in Boston) and marriage green card is so easy to obtain while the PhD or MS international students have to apply for H1B and wait for as long as 8 years to get a green card through their employment. During most of the time in that process, they can't change jobs because it would disrupt the application process and they would need to start over. What most citizens don't understand is that, without new technology, the US will quickly fall behind other countries and lose its world leadership. Playing money games like Wall Street and big banks is NOT sustainable without the thriving business from novel tech and sciences. With a falling US, the US dollars will quickly devalue and be forced to retire from its world currency status. US is not guaranteed with a world leadership, US has to earn it.
I hope people can consider things rationally.

sonic2000 said: Actually, international students are the one that lower in-state costs because they pay full out-of-state tuition so universities look for them to fill the gap of the budget especially nowadays. They must have college level English in order to get into a public state college and they are usually qualified, and if not so, they pay 12x the amount someone in-state would.

This is absolutely correct. International students basically have two choices:
a) pay out of pocket (this is the scenario covered above)
b) get tuition costs reimbursed but have to be either a Research Assistant or Teaching Assistant, sometimes both. Obviously, these positions are at a premium due to limited spaces available.

My undergrad advisor told me that as long as I didn't completely fail the GRE I would be accepted to our grad school almost automatically due to the very low number of our own undergrads applying there.

Being one of these international "monsters" i mean students, let me comment on some of the issues that BBB has raised.

Most international students who come to the US and require RA/TA or any other kind of international funding come for higher education(ie MS, PhD etc). Most of the students who come here as undergraduates have mom and dad paying for it out of their own pocket.

As for bad english, every non native english speaker has to pass TOEFL to ever receive any kind of funding. The bad english people keep complaining about is either because they do not like the foreign accent or because they are not comfortable with british english which is what most south east asians are educated in. Ofcourse, its funny that the same people find the same kind of english quaint and charming when its spoken by someone from UK or france. Hypocrisy? I would guess so.

As for international students stiffing the american taxpayers on their debt, you must not really know much about the indian or chinese culture. Being in debt is a huge taboo. And its drilled into our head that you HAVE to pay back what you owe even if you have to starve in the process. Most people who do stiff their creditors do so because on graduation, they have no jobs and unfortunately, have no means to pay it back. If you cant find a job right out of graduation, you have to leave the country. If you cannot find a job that pays in USD, its very difficult to pay back a debt in USD. When i graduated just after the 2001-2002 recession, I had many friends who couldnt find jobs and had to go back home. When they finally came back in the boom days, every one of them paid back every cent they owed(yes, I know it is stupid but its a matter of honor to them).

Another point is that international students cannot work outside of the university. So if they wanted to work three jobs to pay for schooling, they cannot. I would have loved to work part time to make some extra $$$$ in school and had plenty of opportunity but could not unless i wanted to get paid in cash outside the books.

I am sure there are some rotten apples who stiff the banks and the taxpayers. But my feeling is that if someone were to tally the percentages of international versus citizen deadbeats, the citizens would win hands down.

Now to your solutions

1) If such a rule was implemented, a lot of immigrants like me would be happy. Most international students like me have to stick around and be employed under work visas while our permanent residency is processed. This has been going on for 7 years now and I havent even filed for the final step yet as I am not eligible.

Will such a rule ever be implemented? I doubt it. Too many labor lobbies will do the fearmongering saying us foregn folks will take away all the good paying jobs.

2) My tution was fully funded by being a research assistant. If I wasnt funded by any university, I wouldnt have come here to study. 90% of the international students in science and technology MS or PhD programs are just like me. And it is not easy to get student loans in america for international students. Most people use credit cards as a means of temporary funding.

Also, there are a bunch of governments who do fund their students. These are mainly students from the middle east.

3) I have no idea why you think standardized tests are the issue here. Sure international students are raising those scores but thats because they are genuinely good. If you think those tests do not accurately reflect ones ability, feel free to point out why it is so.

4) I have no problem in stopping schools from building crap. A large midwestern school i went to was always building something or the other and it was impossible to drive/find parking when there were football/basketball games, concerts, events etc. They are not built for international students but for americans undergrads who choose schools based on how great great the parties are or how good the football program is.

OP, you have a lot of misinformation.

1. The temporary residency status of international students simply make them ineligible for any government borrowing, unless they're able to find sponsorship from someone credible (usually someone w/ status and good credit history)

2. Most international students prefers to stay in the States for the ability to make many times more than their native country.

3. No SSN mean no work outside of school.

4. I am one of the so-called international/immigrant students, currently enrolling for advanced degree at a school (top5)with a huge international presence. I speak near-native English. At least that's what most of my American classmates think.

JTFH said: None of my professors every taught a CS class by speaking C++

Might as well have been, with as much as I understood from the verbal class instruction.

Your point is well taken--we do have a relative shortage of math/science students and it sucks. What bothers me most of all is academia's constant and disproportionate* push for the traditionally right-brained courses of study (humanities, art, etc). It's very alluring to the student, especially the typical American student who never got any real hands-on focus in high school and is expected to show up in college and magically catch up, make career decisions, and choose their focus...especially when there are so many "fun hobbies" one can choose for a major.

*disproportionate to the jobs available, which often forces people in those studies to continue their education, instruct, write, etc

anthonyu said: There's probably so much more foreign students that want to be US citizens than those that do not want to. For some, it's their way to be here legally and be able to work part-time and potentially be petitioned by an employer after graduating. So now you'll be dealing with twice as many foreign students in your school.

Your missing the point. If they became US Citizens, then they wouldn't be "foreign students" anymore. My problem is when they leave after their education. If they want to stay in the US forever, and make the aggregate US Citizen "smarter" and pay taxes to the US for the rest of their lives, that's fantastic! I'd much rather have a recent PhD Indian neighbor than a white redneck meth head.

The problem is US taxpayers subsidizing the cost of education of foreign students who leave after they complete their studies.

It's a double whammy because not only does the US have a missed opportunity cost (Because a US citizen could have taken the foreign student's slot) - but also now India and China are getting "smarter" proportionately to the US, reducing our global advantage. The net effect of one Chinese grad student is actually "-2" because we are "-1" less US grad student and China is "+1" PhD educated citizen.

tripleB said: My problem is when they leave after their education. If they want to stay in the US forever, and make the aggregate US Citizen "smarter" and pay taxes to the US for the rest of their lives, that's fantastic! I'd much rather have a recent PhD Indian neighbor than a white redneck meth head.

The point you make here can be scaled down to the state level. Here in Alabama, with a very modest tax base, we have a couple of the better value public universities in the country (Auburn and UA). Every year, same story--how can you educate someone at a decently high level, based largely on tax support, and then prevent them from leaving the state after they graduate?

The concept of "quality of life" and "cost of living" are usually lost on a 22-year-old who actually enjoys the idea of living in a giant city and working 80 hours a week, but I digress. The brain drain is the same, be it across state lines or national borders.

smartladka said: tripleB, i am surprised to see you are a senior member here. Although some points you raise ex: effectively communicating in english as a requirement, the solutions you list, to say it mildly, mediocre and without much research/thought.

Welcome to FWF.

Triple B's next topic "Exporting American white redneck meth heads" for profit!
Your post seems to have a lot of rage. Are you not able to network and use professor rating websites? Isn't one of the MBA points to build professional contacts? Group study sessions seem like a good solution to the problem with the TA and RAs you can't understand as well as building networks, plus the possibility of hooking up with a member of the opposite sex...It might turn that frown upside down.

TripleB - none of your statements are backed by any evidence. For every anecdote that you provide in support of your arguments, I could provide four anecdotes to the contrary. I know a lot more about the school you are talking about and the practices at the school.

P.S. PM me if you need names and events that will evidence that a 550 GMAT American received financial aid at your school whereas a 720 GMAT Indian/Chinese did not get one.

tripleB said: anthonyu said: There's probably so much more foreign students that want to be US citizens than those that do not want to. For some, it's their way to be here legally and be able to work part-time and potentially be petitioned by an employer after graduating. So now you'll be dealing with twice as many foreign students in your school.

Your missing the point. If they became US Citizens, then they wouldn't be "foreign students" anymore. My problem is when they leave after their education. If they want to stay in the US forever, and make the aggregate US Citizen "smarter" and pay taxes to the US for the rest of their lives, that's fantastic! I'd much rather have a recent PhD Indian neighbor than a white redneck meth head.

The problem is US taxpayers subsidizing the cost of education of foreign students who leave after they complete their studies.

It's a double whammy because not only does the US have a missed opportunity cost (Because a US citizen could have taken the foreign student's slot) - but also now India and China are getting "smarter" proportionately to the US, reducing our global advantage. The net effect of one Chinese grad student is actually "-2" because we are "-1" less US grad student and China is "+1" PhD educated citizen.But once you open the floodgates, your 1 PhD neighbor will be living next to 5 "foreigner" English Lit graduates. Your redneck neighbor is now homeless because he didn't get enough education. There will be more foreign students and the quality wouldn't be as good. Qualifying to be a foreign student would be used as a means to obtain US citizenship. And do not confuse citizenship with allegiance or loyalty. A lot of them would work in the US but would still go to their native land and spend most of their earnings on vacations, relatives, investments and retirement.

GreyRabbit said: plus the possibility of hooking up with a member of the opposite sex...It might turn that frown upside down.

I dont even think international students would have sex with BBB!

smartladka said: tripleB, i am surprised to see you are a senior member here. Although some points you raise ex: effectively communicating in english as a requirement, the solutions you list, to say it mildly, mediocre and without much research/thought.

Let me axe you why you say that?