I've browsed FWF for the last few years, and although I don't know quite enough to often provide meaningful input, I appreciate the helpfulness of the community and request that help with my current situation.
I rented a house in LA with friends from March 2008 until March 2010. The house was very large and rent was relatively low for the area. It was a great place and the property manager (separate LLC from the mortgagee) did not meddle in our business and we did not meddle in theirs. In September of 09, we received a notice of foreclosure & auction proceedings against the mortgagee (not the LLC we wrote our rent checks to, but against the property nonetheless). The property manager told us they were attempting a short sale on the property and that was the reason for the auction notice. Although most everyone advised against this, we continued to pay rent; we reasoned that we still had a place to live and had a legal agreement with the owner that was in effect until the property was auctioned and changed ownership. Also, having my name on the lease I didn't want to deal with an eviction in the future. The property manager advised that the auction would be postponed, and it was from that time until even today.
The auction was postponed on a monthly basis for a variety of reasons stated on the trustee website (at first it was lender request, most recently it listed bankruptcy as the reason). Also during December of 2009, one of the people in the house decided to vacate for personal reasons. We asked the property manager to request the owner to share this burden & reduce our rent by that share since with the house being in foreclosure/auction, it would be difficult for us to find anyone to move in. After some negotiation, they agreed and rent was reduced for January and February. It seemed all they cared about was getting a check of some sort. Still, near the end of January, we realized the situation was not sustainable and advised the property manager that we intended to move out by March 1st.
We vacated by March 1st and today I received an itemized statement (full of misspellings) that detailed the "use" of the security deposit. Coincidentally, the list completely eliminates our security deposit
Although I doubt they were completed, about a third of the charges are reasonable (cleaning of $250 & itemized repairs of $750 including some painting beyond normal wear & tear); I question the rest, including: a $500 fee to shampoo carpets (the house is 60% stone flooring plus we lived there for 2 years), plus the full amount of the decreased rent from January and February, as well as rent due for the first 3 days in March. The property manager seemed to want me to be present for an inspection and we were charged for the days in March until I told him that our notice from January was still valid and the property was vacant with the keys locked inside on March 1st as promised.
Questions/comments: -Can the property manager withhold rent from Jan/Feb after previously agreeing to those amounts? I don't have a contract to that effect, but I do have emails where both parties agreed, and of course cashed checks. -Am I responsible for the time in March when they are stating we were in 'possession' of the property? I don't know what constitutes a change in possession but the house was vacated as stated. Further, I noticed the house for rent on craigslist on March 2nd (with pictures of the inside, vacated as we left it). I took a screen capture of this ad as it has now expired/removed. -I intend to request receipts for the repairs and cleaning as per my rights in CA. -Side note: 5 days before vacating, we did ask the property manager when he was free to inspect the property. His reply was 'when it is vacant'. My understanding of CA civil code allows me to request an initial inspection before vacating, and we did not receive it. Is this correct?
I appreciate any insight and advice, and at this point my next step (based on CA civil code) is to send written notification to the property manager that we dispute the charges and request receipts for repairs performed. I am uncertain what law, if any, is applicable to the rent from Jan/Feb/Mar. This is important as it is 50% of the deposit amount.
My claims are against the property management LLC with whom we have a legal agreement, however all of this is possibly moot because of the bankruptcy filing against the mortgagee. Still, my sense is they are keeping the deposit in bad faith, and I intend to exercise all of my rights and go to small claims court if necessary. We were extremely cooperative as tenants, so now that we are being shit on I will do everything legally possible to make this process difficult on the property manager.
If you've made it this far, I apologize for the essay, but thanks!!!!
edited to clarify property manager/landlord distinction.
If your landlord is in BK you are wasting your time trying to get anything back. Even if you sued and won, the judgment would be uncollectable and included and wiped out in BK. You might get pennies on the dollar for your claim, and only after a lot of delay and hassle. Their BK attorney has already advised them not to pay anyone anything.
The most financial advantage you could have obtained from this situation is to have negotiated a LONG TERM LOW RENT LEASE since the new owners are required to honor its terms after the home is finally foreclosed *(which could still be a year or more away). And under that kind of situation if you did want to leave, the new owner would be very likely to offer you a substantial "cash for keys" payment to get you to voluntarily vacate. That would have been the best way to get paid. You wouldnt have to squat or be evicted, your power of having a low rent lease in hand would have been the strongest bargaining tool you could have ever had. You may have received $5000+ to vacate voluntarily, and enjoyed low rent until that time.
emails where both parties have agreed may constitute a contract. im not sure if rental property falls under the statute of frauds (purchasing of property does-just not sure about renting property), but if it does, the emails may not be sufficient to designate a contract. even if they aren't, you could make a promissory estoppel argument. you would then be able to get that back. a lawyer on here may be able to tell you for sure, but if you are interested, you may want to look into those things. (btw, i doubt the cashed checks would constitute any agreement whatsoever, so that is irrelevant)
i thought cleaning after someone vacates the house is done by management but they cannot charge the tenants unless the cleaning is in excess of what one would normally expect. maybe the law in CA is different, but i thought this is the way it was.
When you left, did you give the manager notice that you have vacated the property? this may have been required. obviously, the pictures with the march 2nd timestamp will help you if you are required to present them to a judge, but it may not be sufficient.
Its all irrelevant...the prop manager isnt going to willingly give back money, and if he sues and gets a judgment its just going to be included in the BK.
Id like to know Since when does taking the keys and locking them inside the home become a proper method of turning in the home? Did OP just make that procedure up out of the blue to cause hassle? Why didnt he give them to the property manager?
There is likely more to this story.
If I were OP, I would take my keys (I know and you know he has another set) and would move back in and tell the landlord you want a longterm lease drawn up. They win by getting rental income. You win by having a low rate lease. You will collect your windfall later when the home is taken over.
Crazytree
Senior Member - 8K
posted: Mar. 11, 2010 @ 1:11a
I didn't bother reading this thread... but ironically I have California Civil Code Section 1950.5 open in another browser window.
I suggest you familiarize yourself with it.
dustin72
Tired Member
posted: Mar. 11, 2010 @ 1:23a
jetsfan92588 said: emails where both parties have agreed may constitute a contract. im not sure if rental property falls under the statute of frauds (purchasing of property does-just not sure about renting property), but if it does, the emails may not be sufficient to designate a contract. even if they aren't, you could make a promissory estoppel argument. you would then be able to get that back. a lawyer on here may be able to tell you for sure, but if you are interested, you may want to look into those things. (btw, i doubt the cashed checks would constitute any agreement whatsoever, so that is irrelevant)
i thought cleaning after someone vacates the house is done by management but they cannot charge the tenants unless the cleaning is in excess of what one would normally expect. maybe the law in CA is different, but i thought this is the way it was.
When you left, did you give the manager notice that you have vacated the property? this may have been required. obviously, the pictures with the march 2nd timestamp will help you if you are required to present them to a judge, but it may not be sufficient.
SUCKISSTAPLES said: Its all irrelevant...the prop manager isnt going to willingly give back money, and if he sues and gets a judgment its just going to be included in the BK.
Id like to know Since when does taking the keys and locking them inside the home become a proper method of turning in the home? Did OP just make that procedure up out of the blue to cause hassle? Why didnt he give them to the property manager?
There is likely more to this story.
If I were OP, I would take my keys (I know and you know he has another set) and would move back in and tell the landlord you want a longterm lease drawn up. They win by getting rental income. You win by having a low rate lease. You will collect your windfall later when the home is taken over.
The manager inquired as to the status of the property on 3/1. Prior to that there was no communication on the proper method to convey possession. I replied within an hour that the house was vacant and that I could meet to inspect that evening, the following morning, or the following evening. I did not receive a reply until the following afternoon (3/2) and was given a window during the middle of the day to meet to inspect the property. I was also reminded that they we would be held responsible for every day that passed. I had to travel late that evening and the next day, and since our schedules did not align, I left the keys locked in the house. Certainly not the best method but that's what happened.
The property manager is a separate entity from the mortgagee, and therefore not in BK. The CA LLC search lists a different person as the agent of the LLC than on the mortgage note. Apologies, bringing that into this discussion only added confusion.
The only thing to add to this is my personal opinion that mortgage hasn't been paid regularly since we moved in, and that is precisely why they chose to rent to a bunch of guys in their 20s who wouldn't ask a lot of questions or cause hassle. The plan seems to be to short sell the property between related parties to retain ownership of the house while reducing the outstanding balance on the construction loan for the house. Personally, none of this matters to me anyway, I paid for a place to live and had one. However, I have an interest in the security deposit and will try to collect whatever is not legally & justifiably allocated.
I appreciate the advice regarding a long term lease. I have come across that in research in prior months but decided not to chart that course. I have since moved and don't plan on moving back.
also, for all the help, here is a picture of some skeezy ladies that showed up to our most recent halloween party. not much but all I can find at this moment that seems safe for FWF http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/231/img2672v.jpg
dustin72 said: also, for all the help, here is a picture of some skeezy ladies that showed up to our most recent halloween party. not much but all I can find at this moment that seems safe for FWF http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/231/img2672v.jpg
+1 now we're cookin with gas.
So is your plan to sue the prop manager since they arent in BK?
dustin72 said: I've browsed FWF for the last few years, and although I don't know quite enough to often provide meaningful input, I appreciate the helpfulness of the community and request that help with my current situation.
I rented a house in LA with friends from March 2008 until March 2010. The house was very large and rent was relatively low for the area. It was a great place and the property manager (separate LLC from the mortgagee) did not meddle in our business and we did not meddle in theirs. In September of 09, we received a notice of foreclosure & auction proceedings against the mortgagee (not the LLC we wrote our rent checks to, but against the property nonetheless). The property manager told us they were attempting a short sale on the property and that was the reason for the auction notice. Although most everyone advised against this, we continued to pay rent; we reasoned that we still had a place to live and had a legal agreement with the owner that was in effect until the property was auctioned and changed ownership. Also, having my name on the lease I didn't want to deal with an eviction in the future. The property manager advised that the auction would be postponed, and it was from that time until even today.
The auction was postponed on a monthly basis for a variety of reasons stated on the trustee website (at first it was lender request, most recently it listed bankruptcy as the reason). Also during December of 2009, one of the people in the house decided to vacate for personal reasons. We asked the property manager to request the owner to share this burden & reduce our rent by that share since with the house being in foreclosure/auction, it would be difficult for us to find anyone to move in. After some negotiation, they agreed and rent was reduced for January and February. It seemed all they cared about was getting a check of some sort. Still, near the end of January, we realized the situation was not sustainable and advised the property manager that we intended to move out by March 1st.
We vacated by March 1st and today I received an itemized statement (full of misspellings) that detailed the "use" of the security deposit. Coincidentally, the list completely eliminates our security deposit
Although I doubt they were completed, about a third of the charges are reasonable (cleaning of $250 & itemized repairs of $750 including some painting beyond normal wear & tear); I question the rest, including: a $500 fee to shampoo carpets (the house is 60% stone flooring plus we lived there for 2 years), plus the full amount of the decreased rent from January and February, as well as rent due for the first 3 days in March. The property manager seemed to want me to be present for an inspection and we were charged for the days in March until I told him that our notice from January was still valid and the property was vacant with the keys locked inside on March 1st as promised.
Questions/comments: -Can the property manager withhold rent from Jan/Feb after previously agreeing to those amounts? I don't have a contract to that effect, but I do have emails where both parties agreed, and of course cashed checks. -Am I responsible for the time in March when they are stating we were in 'possession' of the property? I don't know what constitutes a change in possession but the house was vacated as stated. Further, I noticed the house for rent on craigslist on March 2nd (with pictures of the inside, vacated as we left it). I took a screen capture of this ad as it has now expired/removed. -I intend to request receipts for the repairs and cleaning as per my rights in CA. -Side note: 5 days before vacating, we did ask the property manager when he was free to inspect the property. His reply was 'when it is vacant'. My understanding of CA civil code allows me to request an initial inspection before vacating, and we did not receive it. Is this correct?
I appreciate any insight and advice, and at this point my next step (based on CA civil code) is to send written notification to the property manager that we dispute the charges and request receipts for repairs performed. I am uncertain what law, if any, is applicable to the rent from Jan/Feb/Mar. This is important as it is 50% of the deposit amount.
My claims are against the property management LLC with whom we have a legal agreement, however all of this is possibly moot because of the bankruptcy filing against the mortgagee. Still, my sense is they are keeping the deposit in bad faith, and I intend to exercise all of my rights and go to small claims court if necessary. We were extremely cooperative as tenants, so now that we are being shit on I will do everything legally possible to make this process difficult on the property manager.
If you've made it this far, I apologize for the essay, but thanks!!!!
edited to clarify property manager/landlord distinction.
The emails constitute "evidence in writing", which is legally sufficient evidence of a commercial agreement under the Uniform Commercial Code's Statues of Frauds provisions. You don't have to have an actual written contract, just "evidence in writing".
If I were in this situation, I would definitely pay the $20-$30 fee and take the property manager to small claims court.
Better hurry, because the statute of limitations for debt collection in California is 4 years. You have about only 1-2 of them left.
Disclaimer: This by no means constitutes legal advice on my part. You should speak to a licensed attorney within your state prior to acting on this information.
dcg9381
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Mar. 11, 2010 @ 10:05a
I agree. We don't know who is holding the deposit.. and it could be the property management company. If you wrote THEM the check(s) and paid them the rent, there is a chance that they could be holding the deposit in escrow.
And it's always best to pay for the cleaning - or fix whatever is needed & document it, over leaving someone to deduct from your deposit.
dustin72
Tired Member
posted: Mar. 11, 2010 @ 10:08a
SUCKISSTAPLES said: dustin72 said: also, for all the help, here is a picture of some skeezy ladies that showed up to our most recent halloween party. not much but all I can find at this moment that seems safe for FWF http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/231/img2672v.jpg
+1 now we're cookin with gas.
So is your plan to sue the prop manager since they arent in BK?
I'd like to resolve the issue without taking them to court but I don't see that actually happening. I will be disputing the statement of charges as a start.
I'm still unclear on the rental charge issue for both Jan/Feb (whether they can deduct that amount) and what constitutes a change in possession in March.
dustin72
Tired Member
posted: Mar. 11, 2010 @ 10:10a
dcg9381 said: I agree. We don't know who is holding the deposit.. and it could be the property management company. If you wrote THEM the check(s) and paid them the rent, there is a chance that they could be holding the deposit in escrow.
And it's always best to pay for the cleaning - or fix whatever is needed & document it, over leaving someone to deduct from your deposit.
The house was left in reasonably clean condition, but I am not too bothered by the cleaning charge as it wasn't immaculate either. The carpet shampooing is absurd, and seems compounded by the fact that part of the reason the carpets got dirty so quickly is because there was no padding underneath, just carpet over bare floor.
I would try to get in touch with them via email first, then certified letter and then if no luck there via sheriff/process server when you sue them.
I had somebody ducking my emails for money they owed and they refused a certified letter, once the constable (not applicable in CA, you'd probably need a process server) showed up I had the money pretty quickly.
sue your landlord in small claim court. Remember that you can sue for double of what he owes you in CA. Do it NOW and hope that you can win the case and collect before he files for BK. Sometimes, even the threat of a lawsuit will scare the landlord to pay up because he does not want to go to court, or he doesn't want to have his loan's rate going up to accelerate to the path of bk because of collection agency. Most of the time, people who are going to file bk are trying to hang on as long as possible hoping for miracle that never comes.
csjeff
Senior Member - 1K
posted: Mar. 11, 2010 @ 12:43p
TheDealMaker said: Remember that you can sue for double of what he owes you in CA. (l) The bad faith claim or retention by a landlord or the landlord's successors in interest of the security or any portion thereof in violation of this section, or the bad faith demand of replacement security in violation of subdivision (j), may subject the landlord or the landlord's successors in interest to statutory damages of up to twice the amount of the security, in addition to actual damages.
Crazytree
Senior Member - 8K
posted: Mar. 11, 2010 @ 3:31p
csjeff said: TheDealMaker said: Remember that you can sue for double of what he owes you in CA. (l) The bad faith claim or retention by a landlord or the landlord's successors in interest of the security or any portion thereof in violation of this section, or the bad faith demand of replacement security in violation of subdivision (j), may subject the landlord or the landlord's successors in interest to statutory damages of up to twice the amount of the security, in addition to actual damages.Civ. Code. 1950.5. you better cite that to the judge or else he'll tell you that you're an idiot and to be quiet. I've seen it happen... luckily I was on the Defendant's side.
dustin72 said: The plan seems to be to short sell the property between related parties to retain ownership of the house while reducing the outstanding balance on the construction loan for the houseRelated parties or not, the bank still has to approve the short sale
dustin72 said: dcg9381 said: I agree. We don't know who is holding the deposit.. and it could be the property management company. If you wrote THEM the check(s) and paid them the rent, there is a chance that they could be holding the deposit in escrow.
And it's always best to pay for the cleaning - or fix whatever is needed & document it, over leaving someone to deduct from your deposit.
The house was left in reasonably clean condition, but I am not too bothered by the cleaning charge as it wasn't immaculate either. The carpet shampooing is absurd, and seems compounded by the fact that part of the reason the carpets got dirty so quickly is because there was no padding underneath, just carpet over bare floor.
It sounds like mistakes may have been made on both sides. We are talking about CA, so my comments may not apply to other states.
Let's start with OP: ALWAYS schedule in writing 2 inspections that you will be present at. 1st: A preliminary inspection where landlord gives you a rough idea based on what they see - this gives you the opportunity to dispute or correct the issues before the final move out inspection. 2nd: Final move out inspection on the last day of your rent- this is where you turn in your keys. Get the landlord to sign off on the condition and agreed upon issues. If the landlord won't quote prices, at least get them to write down a rough estimate and sign for it. If there is a dispute, this gives you the opportunity to correct before the end of the day or properly document the dispute at the time with photos/video and in writing with you and the landlord for future evidence. Get the results of BOTH inspections in writing. If you request inspections, they are to be performed while you are in possession of the property. Landlord does not have to perform inspection once you've turned over possession. Once you've turned over possession they are free to start cleanup on the property and should not be delayed by an inspection a day or 2 later. If you want it later, you'll pay rent and keep possession. Of course, you should have performed a move-in inspection as well, documenting any issues in writing and video/photo, having the landlord signing off to agree. If the landlord refuses to inspect as required by law, get the refusal in writing. Tell the landlord you want their refusal documented because it's a violation of state law and you'll be suing if a proper inspection is not allows and the full deposit isn't returned. The landlord should agree to inspection at this point. If not, you've got your golden ticket.
Most leases state the unit is still yours until keys are turned over to the landlord. Just leaving them in the house and closing the door behind you doesn't work. Turn in your keys at the final move out inspection (and get a signed receipt to document). Only if there was a prior written agreement that keys could be left behind inside the unit on March 1, then you'd be ok.
Landlord CAN charge for cleaning and carpet cleaning. There is no allowance for "wear and tear". For painting and carpet replacement, there are allowances for wear and tear. Example: the carpet needed to be replaced, and it was only 2 years old (but is supposed to last 7 years), then tenant can only be charged for 5/7 of the cost for replacement. If the carpet can be restored without replacement (by cleaning), then tenant is responsible for the charges to restore the carpet back to the condition they received it. If tenant received a clean carpet, it should be returned cleaned or be subject to charges. *Note that the # of years for paint and carpet to last (and proration based on) is not set in stone by law. Smart landlords will include the expectation in the lease so the expectation is clear upon move in, however it's not required. Generally, I've seen painting as 2-3 yrs and carpet 5-10 years.
You should have agreed to the rent reduction in writing with all parties signing (landlord & tenants). An email might work, but if landlord claims it's forged you might be up a creek. A small claims judge will not allow delay (nor will you want to incur the cost) of an expert to investigate and authenticate the emails (assuming you even have the email still stored and not just a printout).
Landlord's issues: Landlord is responsible to provide copies of receipts for all work completed (assuming total of charges deducted from deposit exceed $125). Tenant does not need to request them (however I believe they can waive their right to the receipts - a shady landlord might slip the waiver in with other documents and have you sign unknowingly). Receipts must be provided within 21 days of moving out (or estimates if work is not yet completed). If estimates are sent, final receipts must be sent upon completion of work.
I doubt the deposit is being held in escrow. Escrow is not required in CA, so I doubt anyone would go through the hassle if they didn't have to.
Solution: If your contract is with the property management company and all payments/deposits were made to them, you may have a case against the property management company and the woes of the BK property owner aren't your problem.
DON'T proactively request receipts until the 21 day period has expired. If they exceed the 21 day period, they've exceeded it and violated the law (and therefore the charges are invalid). There is no reason or requirement for you to remind them and bring them in compliance.
Assuming the management company is the right party to sue, you might be able to recover for the carpet cleaning (double or triple if no receipts within the prescribed time). You may have a difficult time with the rent issue though - depending if the property management company is truthful about the email agreement.
Look at the CA Landlord Tenant Handbook http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/landlordbook/catenant.pdf for just about everything you need to know about protecting yourself as a tenant or landlord.
*edited to correct # of days for receipts from 14 to 21 (thanks Crazytree!) and clarify info re: # of years for prorating paint/carpet.
Crazytree
Senior Member - 8K
posted: Mar. 11, 2010 @ 7:08p
everything is pretty much correct except it is 21 calendar days not 14 pursuant to Civ. Code. Sec. 1950.5.
Crazytree said: everything is pretty much correct except it is 21 calendar days not 14 pursuant to Civ. Code. Sec. 1950.5.
You're right ... my bad ... I try keep it to 14 days so I have an extra buffer just in case (I tend to run late on everything in my life - and can't afford to screw up a deposit accounting). Even if I think I'll get receipts by 20 days, I'll send estimates by 14 days just to cover my ass.
I just updated my post with corrections to 21 days. Thanks for pointing that out!
Crazytree
Senior Member - 8K
posted: Mar. 11, 2010 @ 10:07p
BEEFjerKAY said: SUCKISSTAPLES said: Id like to know Since when does taking the keys and locking them inside the home become a proper method of turning in the home?
When you've got SQUATTERS living in your TRAILER, of course.
jeez, some people can't remember stuff fer sh@t. ok Mr. November 2007...
tolamapS
Senior Member - 2K
posted: Mar. 11, 2010 @ 11:27p
SUCKISSTAPLES said: If I were OP, I would take my keys (I know and you know he has another set) and would move back in and tell the landlord you want a longterm lease drawn up. They win by getting rental income. You win by having a low rate lease. You will collect your windfall later when the home is taken over.
I think this is a very good advice.
Also, can the OP stop paying rent after signing this new lease and up until the foreclosure happens and there is change of ownership?
dustin72
Tired Member
posted: Mar. 11, 2010 @ 11:58p
civ2k1 said: dustin72 said: dcg9381 said: I agree. We don't know who is holding the deposit.. and it could be the property management company. If you wrote THEM the check(s) and paid them the rent, there is a chance that they could be holding the deposit in escrow.
And it's always best to pay for the cleaning - or fix whatever is needed & document it, over leaving someone to deduct from your deposit.
The house was left in reasonably clean condition, but I am not too bothered by the cleaning charge as it wasn't immaculate either. The carpet shampooing is absurd, and seems compounded by the fact that part of the reason the carpets got dirty so quickly is because there was no padding underneath, just carpet over bare floor.
It sounds like mistakes may have been made on both sides. We are talking about CA, so my comments may not apply to other states.
Let's start with OP: ALWAYS schedule in writing 2 inspections that you will be present at. 1st: A preliminary inspection where landlord gives you a rough idea based on what they see - this gives you the opportunity to dispute or correct the issues before the final move out inspection. 2nd: Final move out inspection on the last day of your rent- this is where you turn in your keys. Get the landlord to sign off on the condition and agreed upon issues. If the landlord won't quote prices, at least get them to write down a rough estimate and sign for it. If there is a dispute, this gives you the opportunity to correct before the end of the day or properly document the dispute at the time with photos/video and in writing with you and the landlord for future evidence. Get the results of BOTH inspections in writing. If you request inspections, they are to be performed while you are in possession of the property. Landlord does not have to perform inspection once you've turned over possession. Once you've turned over possession they are free to start cleanup on the property and should not be delayed by an inspection a day or 2 later. If you want it later, you'll pay rent and keep possession. Of course, you should have performed a move-in inspection as well, documenting any issues in writing and video/photo, having the landlord signing off to agree. If the landlord refuses to inspect as required by law, get the refusal in writing. Tell the landlord you want their refusal documented because it's a violation of state law and you'll be suing if a proper inspection is not allows and the full deposit isn't returned. The landlord should agree to inspection at this point. If not, you've got your golden ticket.
Most leases state the unit is still yours until keys are turned over to the landlord. Just leaving them in the house and closing the door behind you doesn't work. Turn in your keys at the final move out inspection (and get a signed receipt to document). Only if there was a prior written agreement that keys could be left behind inside the unit on March 1, then you'd be ok.
Landlord CAN charge for cleaning and carpet cleaning. There is no allowance for "wear and tear". For painting and carpet replacement, there are allowances for wear and tear. Example: the carpet needed to be replaced, and it was only 2 years old (but is supposed to last 7 years), then tenant can only be charged for 5/7 of the cost for replacement. If the carpet can be restored without replacement (by cleaning), then tenant is responsible for the charges to restore the carpet back to the condition they received it. If tenant received a clean carpet, it should be returned cleaned or be subject to charges. *Note that the # of years for paint and carpet to last (and proration based on) is not set in stone by law. Smart landlords will include the expectation in the lease so the expectation is clear upon move in, however it's not required. Generally, I've seen painting as 2-3 yrs and carpet 5-10 years.
You should have agreed to the rent reduction in writing with all parties signing (landlord & tenants). An email might work, but if landlord claims it's forged you might be up a creek. A small claims judge will not allow delay (nor will you want to incur the cost) of an expert to investigate and authenticate the emails (assuming you even have the email still stored and not just a printout).
Landlord's issues: Landlord is responsible to provide copies of receipts for all work completed (assuming total of charges deducted from deposit exceed $125). Tenant does not need to request them (however I believe they can waive their right to the receipts - a shady landlord might slip the waiver in with other documents and have you sign unknowingly). Receipts must be provided within 21 days of moving out (or estimates if work is not yet completed). If estimates are sent, final receipts must be sent upon completion of work.
I doubt the deposit is being held in escrow. Escrow is not required in CA, so I doubt anyone would go through the hassle if they didn't have to.
Solution: If your contract is with the property management company and all payments/deposits were made to them, you may have a case against the property management company and the woes of the BK property owner aren't your problem.
DON'T proactively request receipts until the 21 day period has expired. If they exceed the 21 day period, they've exceeded it and violated the law (and therefore the charges are invalid). There is no reason or requirement for you to remind them and bring them in compliance.
Assuming the management company is the right party to sue, you might be able to recover for the carpet cleaning (double or triple if no receipts within the prescribed time). You may have a difficult time with the rent issue though - depending if the property management company is truthful about the email agreement.
*edited to correct # of days for receipts from 14 to 21 (thanks Crazytree!) and clarify info re: # of years for prorating paint/carpet.
Thanks so much for taking the time to read through everything & provide a thorough response.
A couple of comments: -Yes our contract is with the property management company, not the property owner. -I did inquire, prior to vacating, when the prop manager would be able to inspect the property, and the reply I received was 'when it was vacant'. I don't know if this qualifies as them denying an initial inspection though? It was literally a one-line email. -There is nothing in the lease regarding transfer of possession of property (ie handing over keys), nor was it ever discussed with the prop manager. I realize leaving the keys was not the proper method, but I can't do much about that now. -ALL of our correspondence was via email, and I have all messages since they are hosted on my personal domain. Still, I don't know if this will hold up in court (and really, this is what I'm preparing myself for since I don't see any of this being resolved amicably). -Thank you for clarifying the issue of receipts. Based on reading the civil code late last night, I was incorrectly under the impression that I had to request them. We have not signed anything since the initial lease so we certainly have not waived this right. My understanding now is that if receipts are not provided within 21 days then the landlord loses the right to the full security deposit, but can countersue for damages of rent, repairs, and cleaning. Is that correct? Would the best course of action now be to wait until 21 days have passed and then attempt to recover some portion of the deposit by dealing with the landlord directly? And if that is unsuccessful to take them to small claims court.
greling said: The emails constitute "evidence in writing", which is legally sufficient evidence of a commercial agreement under the Uniform Commercial Code's Statues of Frauds provisions. . . .
Uniform Commercial Code? This isn't a contract for the sale of goods, so UCC will not apply.
tolamapS said: Also, can the OP stop paying rent after signing this new lease and up until the foreclosure happens and there is change of ownership?No. If you want to take advantage of the new law letting renters with a lease remain in the home post foreclosure, you must be making payments.
You dont get to have it both ways - being a nonpaying deadbeat tenant pre foreclosure plus get the right to continued tenancy post foreclosure.
southsioux
Addicted Member
posted: Mar. 12, 2010 @ 3:33p
Hi,
There is a great website online for California tenant law. http://www.caltenantlaw.com/Rights.htm
Please check it out.
1. Everything thing to do with the final walk through, should of been noted in the lease/agreement.
2. Usually it is stated the renter can request a walk through up to 10 days before the end of the lease.
3. What does your rental agreement state what charges will be out of your deposit? If they wrote they would charge you said amounts, and you signed the agreement, you are agreeing to thier terms.
4. You move out, request your deposit, and they have up to 10 days to provide the itemized statement, and deposit.
If you don't agree, write them and explain why. Try and work it out, and if you don't suceed, take them to small claims court.
That is all you can do.
5. You already answered your question, about getting verbal ok to pay reduced rent, with no written statement, the landlord is trying to protect thier butt in court. If you ever make some change to your lease/agreemnt, get it in writing.
The charges you have shown here, do seem reasonable for a house rental. You decide, if it is worth it, to proceed or not.
Disclaimer: By providing links to other sites, FatWallet.com does not guarantee, approve or endorse the information or products available at these sites, nor does a link indicate any association with or endorsement by the linked site to FatWallet.com.
Members of our community may attach files to a post in accordance with the User Agreement. FatWallet is not responsible for the content, accuracy, completeness or validity of any information contained in any attached file. Files have *not* been scanned for viruses. Be especially wary of Excel files which may contain malicious content.
