FWF book club - 4 hour work week - Tim Ferris

I'd agree with the assessment that the book is 50-50, but even the bad 50 has something useful. The whole automating your income part is a little fishy, but even from that the way in which he talks through examples of A-B testing have some pragmatic real-world benefits. And his definition of "work" is really "drudgery," not "thoughtful money-making activity," and looking at your life that way is not a bad idea.

I'm already somebody predisposed to lots of foreign travel and big vacations, as I know I have health issues which are going to make "retirement time" pretty lousy. What the book did was make me rethink some traditional chestnut axioms and ask myself why I can't settle into semi-retirement at 53-55 instead of 60 (I was 44 when I read it). But I couldn't recommend it to some of my relatives, because they would read it too literally and try to build bad product websites and lose lots of money.

I'd say maybe the book was more 70% garbage, 30% useful. The 30% being the core elements:

elimination (the 80/20)
automation (not a muse, but simply changing your way of thinking and automating things that can be done)
liberation (enjoying life)

I agree with his views about mini-retirements. I've been doing that for years already and spend 3-4 months/year traveling. This year will be closer to 6.

I agree with delegation very much. This is where lines may need to be crossed with traditional FWF thinking. You can be ultra-frugal but let's face it, we only live once and the quality of life is important.

Remote work agreement? Absolutely. This is imperative to mini-retirements.

VA's? Oh yeah.. but prepare to spend a considerable amount of time and frustrating in learning how to do this EFFECTIVELY. Tim did advise as to the care that you need to take in doing this, but it's even harder and more time consuming than he leads you to believe. I have VA's, and I outsource to teams (read above, delegation!) what I can but it's not always easy.

In general, there's good principle's in the book and it is funny how he opens your eyes to so called "experts" in the field. I liked how he showed his readers that, because I've always laughed about these kind of people.

Of course I read it - who wouldn't? I quickly realized that was the point - he was selling books, nothing else. He tantalizes us with what we want to hear. I'm a web developer and I can tell you, you're not going to make a fortune online in four actual hours a week. Even maintaining an established site takes more than that.

Not that there's anything wrong with selling books. Good for him.

Virtual Assistants are employees, and managing employees is a good skill to have. The part about VA's was written by AJ Jacobs, who writes for Esquire and who is a really great writer. There's an update in Jacobs' new book The Guinea Pig Diaries continuing the VA story. (So, Jacobs is really the "not-so-virtual assistant" because Ferriss got him to do that part.)

The lessons I took from the book:

1. Anyone can have a 4 hour work week, if you define "work" as something you do for four hours - and everything else as "not-work". It's all in the semantics.
2. Look for loopholes and little-known rules. Nothing new about that - it works, banks and CC co's are experts at it, for example.
3. Writing a best-seller with a catchy title is a good way to leverage whatever it is you do and get your name out there.

Certainly worth reading. I recommend the library.

Green for the FWF book club, cool idea!

But Ferris is an assclown that wrote most of the Amazon reviews for his own book... Dude lies constantly: example.

He's just too douchey and I can't get over that long enough to read his book.

I started working outside the home, for a real paycheck, when I was 14, and worked very hard through teen years and college (I had to self-fund much of that time).

My fractured family never took a vacation in my entire youth, except for one horrible 1000-mile drive one summer to Amarillo, Texas in a non-airconditioned, vinyl-seated Chevette. 2 days to get there, 3 days there, 2 days to get home.

I decided in college that I wanted to visit different countries and learn about art, architecture, culture, etc. If possible, I wanted to live in different countries, rather than just briefly visit.

I knew that I could not guarantee that, later in life (retirement age), I would still be healthy and energetic, or even be able to afford to travel. Travel when you are 65 is much more expensive and slow than travel when you are 21, no matter how spritely a senior citizen you are. I also knew that it was fallacious to count on living until retirement age - any of us can die at any time.

Therefore, I put a lot of time and effort (and the little money I had) into studying, travelling, living, and working in Germany and the UK, which I did for several years in my early-to-mid 20s. It was a very budget affair, and really lean times, but the experience was enriching to me personally. Thrilling, really. I even had a spooky adventure on my own in East Berlin when it was still behind the Iron Curtain.

However, the opportunity cost was great. I knew going in that there would be an opportunity cost (in terms of earnings and career and so on), but what I didn't realize that my very best friends (of 5-8 years' standing) -- who were doing amazing things in med school at Stanford and at law school at NYU and at Supreme Court internships and so on -- would drop me because they couldn't understand why I was "wasting" my potential. Losing all my best friends in those years seared my soul, actually. It has never been overcome. But it wasn't my fault - I was living honestly, working hard, learning a lot -- but I wanted a different type of life than they did (at that *particular* time of our youth), and they were amazingly closed-minded about it, even though they were pretty liberal people.

I think Americans tend to be like that - we really march in step to a certain drummer when it comes to our ideas of how formal education and careers should look. The whole idea that it has to be some kind of "paradigm shift" if you DON'T want to work in a beige cubicle from 9-5 for 50 years (with only 2 weeks of vacation per year) is kind of ODD in the first place, really, and isn't how life works in most other places in the world. It's not how humans have lived for most of our history. It's not beneficial biologically, psychologically, and probably not even financially (when the final costs are counted).

I then came back to the US and moved to another state and had some other wonderful learning experiences on Nantucket and in Boston. After a lot of hard graft, I was promoted at my job and they sent me to the UK. I then lived in the UK for another 10 years, with four 3-month stints of living in 4 other European countries during that time. I got an MBA, had hard-to-get jobs that I got by being at the right place at the right time, combined with strategic, open-minded risk-taking, combined with a certain courage and sense of adventure. I'm sorry if that sounds un-humble - don't mean it that way.

Now, here I am, early 40s, and my life is at another crossroads. I have discovered that my former best friends from high school and college, whom I have looked up on Google/Yahoo in the last couple of years, are at amazing, remarkable places in their careers. They are big professors, wealthy practitioners - well known in their fields - not surprising. I'm sure they earn 5 times as much as I do, maybe 10 times as much. But, they are tied down in ways that I'm not. One of them (whom I spoke with last year, for the first time in 22 years) told me of his family's one trip outside the US, which was to Ireland for 1 week. He said to me that he wished he'd travelled more when he was younger. He can see that with a stay-at-home wife and 2 young kids, and a job that is 7 am - 7 pm, international travel is not really going to happen, at least not for 20 years. Of course, travel is not that important to him, and I'm sure he has a lot of life luxuries and a financial cushion that I don't have.

Though he's one of the lucky ones in my peer group, whose personal and work lives right now are often NOT what they were promised to be, when we were kids and young adults. Lots of people have lost their retirement savings, their jobs, their homes. Even people who went to the best schools, got the best grades, worked for the most "blue-chip" employers. People who saved up, worked 70 hour weeks, didn't allow themselves many experiences or luxuries, who were thinking of the long-term future, who put all their hopes into their retirement years...

I did not say to that friend that I now wish I'd gone down a more traditional route when I was 21. Because I don't.

Yes, I've paid for the opportunity costs. My eyes were as wide open as they could have been, when I started out. It was worth it.

I wove in joy and travel and freedom *during* my life, rather than saving it for the distant future.

I have met and worked with a lot of interesting people and organizations. I've obtained some of that knowledge about the world, history, architecture, societies, culture that I was thirsty for.

In my retirement (if I even CAN retire, financially, esp. since social security and everything else is probably going to collapse before then), if all I am able to do is finally sit down and take time to think about those many years of memories and travels, and read books, and volunteer, I will be gloriously happy. (Hopefully I still have some good years ahead of me, and I'm not stopping just yet!)

Last year I read the website of the 4-hour-work-week guy. Blah. What he says is not that revolutionary, and the posters above who said that he's simply defining "work" in a narrow way, but actually works a lot more hours than he says he does, are right.

We Americans would all be better off, more healthy, balanced, if we had more time off in the work-year, and could organize our working time in a more individualized way. Of course, sometimes, it's necessary to have people working on a set schedule. But for many people, there would only be productivity gains and happiness gains if they could adjust their work-week and careers to suit their strengths, circadian rhythms, family needs, energy levels, etc.

NantucketSunrise said: I even had a spooky adventure on my own in East Berlin when it was still behind the Iron Curtain.

Elaborate?

NantucketSunrise said: I started working ..... energy levels, etc.
Summary: You didn't feel like going to school or getting a 'real job', so you spent your younger years blowing what little money you had just doing whatever you wanted under the guise of being liberated. All of your closed-minded an oppressed friends have gone on to be successful and actually contribute to society and in so doing sacrificed a degree of their personal happiness. They can now afford to treat their families well and retire comfortably; you cannot do either and will be working while old and/ or living off the government. Everyone but you is a conformist. Yawn.

Some of us work long hours but actually enjoy what we do so it isn't a big deal; and there are others of us that are willing to put in extra time if we feel it will help us get where we want to be (wherever that is).

As for the book, I read about half of it then realized that I had already come across most of the good stuff elsewhere.

He was recenntly intervewed in entrepreneur about the new edition of the book.

I havent read it yet but the point he was making struck a deep cord with me, as a multi-pharmacy business owner with 30 employees:

DONT FEEL GUILTY
he stated that ppl like us have become successful due to our ethics, and we may be motivated by guilt - feeling we're not putting in enough - especially in time.

The key is, productivity is not tied to a time clock! I've really taken this guilt message to heart.

I've always felt that some old schoolers industrial mindset still 'haunts' us young folk

Everything is always a balance. People here are talking about people working 80 hour weeks with two weeks vacation. Then someone else is talking about living a carefree live in Europe and someone else is talking about doing work from a booth in Panera. Are people forgetting that there is something in between?
How about working 40 hours a week in a stable lower stress job that is doing something you enjoy? You spend time identifying the few things you like the most (food, travel, cars, housing, etc) and spend your money in the most savy ways on these things, and forgo the other things in life society pressures you to buy (but really do not impact your personal happiness) and instead save for the future. This is the lifestyle my wife and I are living and it works very well for us.
I don't need a virtual assistant (just guessing that is what the abbreviation VA is for) because 1) I strive to live a simple life which means I can manage my own affairs and 2) I try to do anything myself I can do to save money--living on less allows me to take the simpler job.
I don't know what the future holds, this is precisely the reason I work hard and save now. Maybe I won't be able to travel as well when I am 60-65 when I retire or maybe I won't even live that long. But maybe my savings will enable me to have the financial flexibility to leave a bad job (or avoid taking it in the first place), move to a better city, quit my job to care for a sick relative, etc.

Hitchhiker: You heard of this thing, the 4-Hour work week?
squid3: Yeah, sure, 4-hour work week. Yeah, the book.
Hitchhiker: Yeah, this is going to blow that right out of the water. Listen to this: 3... Hour... Work week.
squid3: Right. Yes. OK, all right. I see where you're going.
Hitchhiker: Think about it. You walk into a bookstore, you see 4-hour work week sittin' there, there's 3-hour work week right beside it. Which one are you gonna pick, man?
squid3: I would go for the 3.
Hitchhiker: Bingo, man, bingo. 3-hour work week. And we guarantee just as good a work as the 4-hour folk.
squid3: You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?
Hitchhiker: If you're not happy with the first 3 hours, we're gonna send you the extra hour free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from "A" to "B".
squid3: That's right. That's - that's good. That's good. Unless, of course, somebody comes up with 2-Hour work week. Then you're in trouble, huh?
[Hitchhiker convulses]
Hitchhiker: No! No, no, not 2! I said 3. Nobody's comin' up with 2. Who works for 2 hours? You won't even get your heart goin, not even a mouse on a wheel.
squid3: That - good point.
Hitchhiker: 3's the key number here. Think about it. 3 Eleven. 3 amigos. 3, man, that's the number. 3 chipmunks twirlin' on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncle's ranch. You know that old children's tale from the sea. It's like you're dreamin' about Gorgonzola cheese when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.
squid3: Why?
Hitchhiker: 'Cause you're f*#kin' fired!

kiasuchick said: I have the "simple" job biomedeng talked about and I'm def more miserable than my higher paid 60+ hour/week job I had before! I will not be satisfied until I can reclaim my life back from wage slavery.
Can you elaborate on why your simple job is less satisfying? My definition of the simple job is where I am doing something I enjoy and I am valued, but I also have a more flexible schedue and less stress. Not sure what your new job is but menial jobs like WalMart greeter would not be acceptable to me since it is not enjoyable to me and I would not feel valued in this position. I also want a certain amount of material goods that I could not achieve with this low earning of a position.
Both my wife and I have skillsets where we could move into higher paying jobs. But for both of us this requires working more total hours and spending less time together and with our families. These higher paying positions for me would likely require significant amounts of travel and the duration of employement could be less stable. For us the additional requirements and stresses of the higher paying jobs makes these jobs feel like wage slavery in comparison to what we currently do.

It seems that the end desire is different for every person, some want to travel some, others want to travel always, some want a stable job with simple pleasures, others still want more and are willing or even enjoy the sacrifices they have to make.

I guess for me the main lessons that can be used by anyone from this book (which are really just a compilation from other books) aka the D.E.A.L
-try to simplify your life a little more, so you have more time for whatever things you value most. (Elimination)
-try to focus most of your effort on what will bring about the most result (Elimination/Automation)
-determine what your life goals/dreams are and start working towards them, don't be afraid to shoot for the stars (Definition/Liberation)
-time is our most valuable asset, use it wisely

and if you are too afraid to take a risk, step back and create a worst case scenario and you will usually see that the reward is much greater than the risk, and the reward is permanent whereas the risk is temporary.

I've been in a "What do I want out of life?" phase, and read Ferris's book recently. It would be impossible for me to implement an actual 4-hour workweek in my current role. That said, I took away two important messages: (1) for work, I now focus more on process automation; (2) in life, I try to analyze rationally the benefit I get per dollar of spending. (1) Has made me a more productive employee. (2) Has caused me to feel less guilt about big ticket, premeditated spending ($1000 weekend getaways), while cutting small ticket, unnecessary daily expenses ($6/day breakfast, $3/day iPhone subscription, $3/day coffee, and others).

ok, so what books related to this one does everyone suggest as further reading.

and any nominations for next week's book club?

biomedeng said: Everything is always a balance. People here are talking about people working 80 hour weeks with two weeks vacation. Then someone else is talking about living a carefree live in Europe and someone else is talking about doing work from a booth in Panera. Are people forgetting that there is something in between?
How about working 40 hours a week in a stable lower stress job that is doing something you enjoy? You spend time identifying the few things you like the most (food, travel, cars, housing, etc) and spend your money in the most savy ways on these things, and forgo the other things in life society pressures you to buy (but really do not impact your personal happiness) and instead save for the future. This is the lifestyle my wife and I are living and it works very well for us.
I don't need a virtual assistant (just guessing that is what the abbreviation VA is for) because 1) I strive to live a simple life which means I can manage my own affairs and 2) I try to do anything myself I can do to save money--living on less allows me to take the simpler job.
I don't know what the future holds, this is precisely the reason I work hard and save now. Maybe I won't be able to travel as well when I am 60-65 when I retire or maybe I won't even live that long. But maybe my savings will enable me to have the financial flexibility to leave a bad job (or avoid taking it in the first place), move to a better city, quit my job to care for a sick relative, etc.

Have you read the book? I agree that having a well balanced life makes it easiest to be relatively happy and comfortable but what if you want more...sure don't chase uncatchable dreams and find yourself flat on your face, but is comfort a goal worth striving for either? I guess I just don't want to grow old and look back with regrets, but as I mentioned before I guess everyone's application is different, its how it changes the way you look at things that matters here...