I know of a company, actually many companies in a building, down here in South Florida which was recently involved in a bit of legal wrangling because their facilities were not up to the letter of the law for handicapped accessibility. These weren't gross errors, it was a building built in the 70s with ramps, It's two floors but has elevators. I think the thing they got them on was there wasn't a handicap compatible bathroom stall. The dimensions weren't wide enough. From what I gather there are people who go around finding problems and suing to enforce them and get damages and the lawyers get fees.
So I ask, from a small business point of view: What do you need to do to cover yourself so that such claims cannot be made against your building? Is the Americans with Disability Act the thing we need to comply with alone? How can I identify what I need to comply with on a whether it be Federal, State, City, County, etc. requirements and laws?
Also, if you find yourself to be out of compliance, what's the best course of action? I guess (naively, perhaps) that one should engage with the agency responsible for doing the enforcement and submit a plan to fix it. What if you cant afford the repairs right now?
I remember reading an article about some guy in LA who would shake down places over this, finding the tiniest technical infractions, reporting them to whatever government agency handled it, and then collecting the finder fee part of the fine the business had to pay. He was handicapped. He was also an arse.
ppatin
Focused.
posted: Mar. 17, 2010 @ 10:29a
Ugh, the ADA is a perfect example of how the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I suspect there are ADA consultants out there who you can hire to make sure you meet the letter of the law. Seems like paying someone who's got a lot of experience with that sort of crap would be the most efficient way to go.
ppatin said: Ugh, the ADA is a perfect example of how the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I suspect there are ADA consultants out there who you can hire to make sure you meet the letter of the law. Seems like paying someone who's got a lot of experience with that sort of crap would be the most efficient way to go.So what happens when you hire an expert who tells you exactly how you are not in compliance and you chose not to remedy it?
Is it worse to be not in compliance and ignorant of that fact or to be not in compliance and know it?
Personally, I don't know if it would be a great idea to hire that consultant unless you intend to make the changes that are recommended.
Those ppl looking to sue for ADA violations can ALWAYS find one. Its foolish to try to proactively prepare for every little thing since they can find another.
If you are sued, pay the $2000 shakedown fee and comply. Dont spend $20k thinking your building is brought into full compliance, only to find out you get shaken down for something else. And if you have a business that doesnt depend on customer walkins, keep the doors locked and buzz in only known clients.
These people sue Even businesses that have an "ADA" bathroom since inevitably something is an inch too high or narrow, etc.
Episode 7: "Handicap Parking" Penn & Teller expose the BS behind handicap parking and the bureaucratic nightmare that is "The Americans With Disabilities Act." To the chagrin of many in her community, the mother of a disabled girl advocates for her rights. A best selling author and disabled since birth, says things were better before the ADA stuck its nose into the lives of people with handicaps. A disabled lawyer threatens to sue dozens of business owners for claiming they are in noncompliance with ADA federal building codes. Plus, we roll a smart-ass guy in an Iron Lung down Hollywood Boulevard to test the limits of handicap accessibility.
I added bold above... Lawyer runs around looking for noncompliance...
ppatin
Focused.
posted: Mar. 17, 2010 @ 11:16a
As the Vulcans say, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The ADA has gone too far, and people should not be forced to make expensive renovations to accommodate a very small number of people.
With the ADA, you are required to make reasonable accomodations unless you can show undue hardship. Most reasonable accomodations are typically under 500 dollars and are not reoccuring. As long as you document that you are acting in good faith you minimize your risk of ADA fines. You don't typically see employees abusing this.
What about if you are a business who rents a venue. Does the cost fall on you as the leasee to make sure the building is up to code or is that the job of the landlord? Are their any regs on this?
princessida
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 17, 2010 @ 11:49a
You can get insurance that covers this.
As the parent of a 20-year-old in a wheelchair, there is another side to this. If he can't use the bathroom, what the heck is he supposed to do? I hate the ADA as much as anyone, but bathrooms matter.
Fun fact: our local ADA coordinator's office was in a building that wasn't very handicapped accessible, and didn't have usable wheelchair bathrooms. And we had to wait and wait for appointments . . .
ppatin
Focused.
posted: Mar. 17, 2010 @ 12:00p
princessida said: As the parent of a 20-year-old in a wheelchair, there is another side to this. If he can't use the bathroom, what the heck is he supposed to do? I hate the ADA as much as anyone, but bathrooms matter.
I don't think anyone thinks that bathrooms shouldn't be wheelchair accessible, a lot of us just take issue with the fact that a small business can get hit with thousands of dollars of fines because of minor technical violations of obscure rules.
Ask a lawyer. Some buildings, I believe, have been grandfathered in and the ADA won't apply unless there are signficant renovations. I doubt you'd have to submit plans to any gov't agency saying how'll you'll fix it unless the federal agency seeks you out first. And it sounds like most of the enforcment is coming from private citizens, so you wouldn't really be protected even if you dealt with an agency without repairing the issues.
Yeah, its only those who are engaged in the shakedowns who are despised, and how to keep them out of your business. They have no intention of being a patron, they are there solely to make money claiming they were injured or humiliated because something is an inch off guideline.
I personally love the ADA modifications since its resulted in nicer larger public bathrooms we can all use without feeling so claustrophobic, and I think the general idea of making things accessible to the disabled is great. We just need to somehow weed out these opportunists
jjleprikon
Member
posted: Mar. 17, 2010 @ 12:42p
SUCKISSTAPLES said: ...We just need to somehow weed out these opportunistsAgreed. This type of suit is a major problem for some business owners, and its irritating the governator too.
We get work from businesses every now and again because of these shakedowns to redesign a restroom/entrance/walkway/whatever. It happens far too often and from what I've seen it's just a bunch of frivolous paper pushing.
The guidelines aren't really that hard to match but there are a lot of them. We have a 3" binder full of the letter of the law around here but it's mostly available online if you really need to find it: http://www.access-board.gov/adaag/html/adaag.htm
If your office is on the 2nd floor, with no elevator and no handicap restroom. Are you legally responsible to ensure handicapped access or is the building's landlord?
drieendertig
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 17, 2010 @ 3:41p
SUCKISSTAPLES said: Yeah, its only those who are engaged in the shakedowns who are despised, and how to keep them out of your business. They have no intention of being a patron, they are there solely to make money claiming they were injured or humiliated because something is an inch off guideline.
I personally love the ADA modifications since its resulted in nicer larger public bathrooms we can all use without feeling so claustrophobic, and I think the general idea of making things accessible to the disabled is great. We just need to somehow weed out these opportunists
Maybe someone should threaten to add to their handicaps...?
Yup, my lawyer friend has a client who does exactly this. He flies around the country to various cities checking out malls, shopping centers etc for absence of such facilities. Then he sues the mall owner. He made quite a bit of money doing this for the last 10 yrs(speaking of a few millions...)
NorthStar2020 said: Yup, my lawyer friend has a client who does exactly this. He flies around the country to various cities checking out malls, shopping centers etc for absence of such facilities. Then he sues the mall owner. He made quite a bit of money doing this for the last 10 yrs(speaking of a few millions...) You lawyer friend's Clinet is an AHole.
HumDoHamaraDo said: NorthStar2020 said: Yup, my lawyer friend has a client who does exactly this. He flies around the country to various cities checking out malls, shopping centers etc for absence of such facilities. Then he sues the mall owner. He made quite a bit of money doing this for the last 10 yrs(speaking of a few millions...) You lawyer friend's Clinet is an AHole. Yup, the client is exactly that. This guy was a security guard somewhere and ended up disabled on the job. But he found a profitable and niche gig to pass his time. He's been suing businesses for at least 10 yrs .
Kdogg
Member
posted: Mar. 17, 2010 @ 5:20p
NorthStar2020 said: HumDoHamaraDo said: NorthStar2020 said: Yup, my lawyer friend has a client who does exactly this. He flies around the country to various cities checking out malls, shopping centers etc for absence of such facilities. Then he sues the mall owner. He made quite a bit of money doing this for the last 10 yrs(speaking of a few millions...) You lawyer friend's Clinet is an AHole. Yup, the client is exactly that. This guy was a security guard somewhere and ended up disabled on the job. But he found a profitable and niche gig to pass his time. He's been suing businesses for at least 10 yrs .
And probably collecting government disability checks.
And the beauty for the lawyer is that every suit is a simple cut/paste job from the last one...different business and different day, but always the same claims....
You can pay me a million bucks, but I rather not be disabled and wear diapers.
biomedeng
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 17, 2010 @ 5:52p
I wish it were this easy to sue the federal government. The USPS built a new post office to replace the only post office in my grandmother's small town. The new doors were so heavy she couldn't open them (she walks with a walker, but is able to drive around town). I filed a complaint with the USPS, since a new building with heavy doors should have the automatic door openers on it. USPS gave me the run around for months. Initally they sent a letter saying they only have to make accomodations in a building built after 1960 (or some similar date)--they didn't realize the post office had opened after 2000. Then they started talking about how my grandmother should drive to another post office (even though there is only one in the town) and that my grandmother had no need to use the post office since she doesn't have a PO box. The last response I got from them was that they conducted a study and determined the doors were to heavy to have automatic door openers! Three years later I've given up on this fight and my grandmother has convinced her postal delivery person to bring stamps directly to her. It would be great to win some cash, but what I really want them to do is make the building accessible.
kamalktk said: I remember reading an article about some guy in LA who would shake down places over this, finding the tiniest technical infractions, reporting them to whatever government agency handled it, and then collecting the finder fee part of the fine the business had to pay. He was handicapped. He was also an arse.
I recall reading about something similar. I believe this is an article about the same guy. Scum. Disabled man's crusade a bane to business owners "He might as well have had a gun and asked me for $1,000 when he came in," Paul Venetos, owner of Anaheim's Varsity Burgers, said of an April visit by Mundy that led to a lawsuit over a condiments counter that was half an inch too high.
The burger joint's security camera recorded Mundy wheeling in, looking around for a few minutes then leaving without perusing a menu or attempting to order, Venetos said. He believes Mundy came in only to look for a chink in his ADA armor.
LawrenceofArabia said: You can pay me a million bucks, but I rather not be disabled and wear diapers.
Congrats on making it to >1000 posts Lawrence.....I'll have to seek our your other gems.
biomedeng
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 17, 2010 @ 7:10p
SUCKISSTAPLES said: why fight this on your own? Use one of these ADA lawyers Do these people work on contingency? I am guessing I have to sue in federal court since it is a federal agency? The thing is a normal business would just settle or make the accommodations because they realize that it is costing them $100-400/hr for their lawyer to deal with the issue. Depending on the location I could also call in some state or federal watchdog agency, except this doesn't work when the complaint is against the government. The government doesn't care and usually they seem to win by stonewalling. In my case they were successful.
biomedeng said: SUCKISSTAPLES said: why fight this on your own? Use one of these ADA lawyers Do these people work on contingency? l.yes the ADA lawyers work on contingency. They might be unwilling to pursue a claim against USPS though bc its more work than shaking down a mom and pop business.
aeiouy said: Can't you put a sign out front that has a wheelchair with a red circle and a red line through it: "No Wheelchairs Allowed" Sure. Right next to the "No Asians Allowed' sign
Crazytree
Senior Member - 8K
posted: Mar. 18, 2010 @ 1:16a
biomedeng said: I wish it were this easy to sue the federal government. The USPS built a new post office to replace the only post office in my grandmother's small town. The new doors were so heavy she couldn't open them (she walks with a walker, but is able to drive around town). I filed a complaint with the USPS, since a new building with heavy doors should have the automatic door openers on it. USPS gave me the run around for months. Initally they sent a letter saying they only have to make accomodations in a building built after 1960 (or some similar date)--they didn't realize the post office had opened after 2000. Then they started talking about how my grandmother should drive to another post office (even though there is only one in the town) and that my grandmother had no need to use the post office since she doesn't have a PO box. The last response I got from them was that they conducted a study and determined the doors were to heavy to have automatic door openers! Three years later I've given up on this fight and my grandmother has convinced her postal delivery person to bring stamps directly to her. It would be great to win some cash, but what I really want them to do is make the building accessible.before you sue any governmental body you have to file a government claim. and even then you have to get someone who knows what they're doing because even though the USPS must accommodate disabled persons an there are laws to that effect... it is specifically exempt from the ADA itself IIRC.
In general, small businesses need to make "reasonable modifications" for ADA access, like adding a wheelchair ramp, if doing so is "readily achievable." That means "easily accomplishable and able to be carried out without much difficulty or expense." ADA faqs. This includes ramping a few steps, installing grab bars, "and similar modest adjustments." Nobody needs to add an elevator to an existing building, although new construction needs to meet ADA architectural standards.
There is a federal tax credit of up to $5,000 for small businesses, covering half the cost of ADA modifications.
The problem of abusive lawsuits is mostly in California, where individuals can sue under state law (the "Unruh" law) and win a minimum damages award of several thousand dollars. This same state law also bans "ladies' night" at bars (only in California). Unruh law
In most states, and in federal courts, individuals can sue to enforce ADA access requirements, but they can't win fines or damages. Under Federal law, only the Justice Department can seek fines, and only after negotiations to settle the dispute have failed. DOJ Enforcement
what about suing for non section 508 compliance of website? my grandma is too weak to press the keys and read the 42" westy at at 640x480 so they need to fix up their website.
If they do that then you can order stamps online for free delivery
biomedeng
Senior Member
posted: Mar. 19, 2010 @ 6:19a
RollingThunder said: USPS is governed by the Architectural Barriers Act. Thanks for the info. This is a key requirement in the 2005 version of the act: 404.2.9 Door and Gate Opening Force. Fire doors shall have a minimum opening force allowable by the appropriate administrative authority. The force for pushing or pulling open a door or gate other than fire doors shall be as follows: Interior hinged doors and gates: 5 pounds (22.2 N) maximum. Sliding or folding doors: 5 pounds (22.2 N) maximum. However, these standards were adopted in 2005, for owned buildings that were less than 30% complete at the time. I believe my grandmother's post office opened before then, so it seems the rules default back to the architechtural barriers act of 1968 which at first glance looks much more basic. At any rate there was a nice online complaint form at http://www.access-board.gov/enforcement/filing.htm that I can file with the access board that enforces this act. I'll see where this gets me.
I think common sense applies if you have a business, try hiring a disabled person for a day to give your business a look around and inform you what doesn't work. These are the people its going to affect. Stairs are a nightmare so you need an elevator. Can you get from the parking lot to the building, you need handicap spaces. Can a person with a wheelchair get up onto your sidewalk --do you have where the cement dips so its easy for the chair to roll up onto sidewalk. Next is the doorway wide enough to allow a wheelchair? Is the bathroom door wide enough to accomodate a chair, how high is the sink? If its a store are the aisles wide enough for the chair to fit thru. Make sure there is someone to assist if items are placed on higher shelves.
And if you make these accomodations i think you will get more business because more people will be able to get into your door. I had a friend with a bad back, she couldn't walk for more than a few minutes. She needed a new refrigerator and I offered to take her shopping and I was sure the store would have a wheelchair as most stores today do. I was amazed that this electronics big box store did not. I was told they would give her a chair when she needed to sit. We left and went to their competitor who indeed did have a wheel chair.
scrouds said: HumDoHamaraDo said: scrouds said: This is just another piece of proof that we need wholesale legal system change. I think, People who lose in lawsuits can be sued for legal fees, upto $100k if a jury finds their lawsuit frivilous.
I think strict liability should be legislated out of the legal system in most circumstances, and only make people liable for negligence. Most of america doesn't seem to believe in the phrase "Shit happens". Instead they look for someone to blame so they can "get paid". The legal system needs to do more to protect the people that are sued. It'll solve a lot of issues including reducing the amount of cases in the legal system, reining in the medical costs associated with excess testing and malpractice insurance all the way to stopping nuissance suits such as this thread is about.
What we don't need is more lawsuits in an attempt to rein in lawsuits. Your example is a prime example of the lobbying arm of the american bar association at work. My example is a prime example of allowing reasonable lawsuits to happen while discouraging shakedown by mass lawsuits to see where there is payout. If you are going to file a lawsuit, be prepared to pay legal fees if a jury finds it frivilous enough.
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