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I am hoping for another college deal for upgrade for 19.99

asuka said:   SteelRing said:   the better part of this deal is that the Win8 comes with downgrade rights, so you can up your XP to Win8Pro for $39 and then downgrade it to Win7Pro if you think that is superior (which it probably is), so you can get Win7Pro for $39 which is unheard of.

on the other news, rumor is RIM is getting Win8 to help it bury its blackberry for good... i guess no such thing as learning from nokia. windows on a mobile device, i was scared as fkcd when i heard they put windows OS on Ford cars (the Sync?), i stay away from any Ford car in traffic these days, don't really want to find that whole new meaning of crash.


Where have you heard that you get downgrade rights with this offer? I seriously doubt that consumer Win8 upgrades will be entitled to downgrade rights.

There's no way Microsoft will allow a (consumer) XP Home OEM SKU to get insta-downgrade rights to Win7 Pro for $39.


Quoted from Windows 8 Upgrade Will Cost Just $39.99
On that note, for those of you still on Windows XP, the fact that Microsoft is offering Windows 8 Pro as opposed to Windows 8 (consumer) should be of particular interest. Windows 8 Pro comes with downgrade rights, which allow the owner to legally install older versions of Windows. So for those of you needing to upgrade from XP but still wanting to hang back with Windows 7, this is a de-facto $40 Windows 7 Professional upgrade too.

thanks guys for your reviews on Windows 8, after the reviews i would rather stick '07!

Would it make sense to upgrade from Vista on a laptop to Win8?
(no touchscreen or any of that junk.. just curious if it'll run smoother than vista)

Darkon112 said:   Would it make sense to upgrade from Vista on a laptop to Win8?
(no touchscreen or any of that junk.. just curious if it'll run smoother than vista)


you would get some performance increases with windows 7 alone, perhaps some battery savings, its too soon to say for windows 8.

Thanks for all the feedback. Its been a great discussion.

However, I also want thank you all for a bonus for it seems I get a FW T-shirt!

Keep the comments coming. Thanks.

rootbear said:   What is so wrong with 7 that 8 is even needed - desktop specific? Though for some reason our IT folks are pretty excited over Win Server 2012.

I have no idea why anyone would upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 8. You have to give credit to Microsoft because Win7 is probably the best operating system I have ever used in my life. It is easy to use and secure, and compatible with lots of hardware and software. Apple OS is great, but you have to use their hardware (unless you want to hack a mac, which is not something businesses will do), and that's a very expensive proposition for an operating system that will not support of lot of the business software out there such as, well, ahem, Microsoft Office and Outlook. Linux is a lot of fun, and it's free, but screwing around with hardware until it works is still a major pain, and the software compatibility for business users really isn't there yet. Windows 7 is really in the sweet spot of being affordable, secure, stable, and compatible. I'm really not sure what Win8 brings to the table other than a new GUI to learn and more bugs to iron out.

Windows Server 2012 is supposed to be a sweet update, and I'm really looking forward to it. Active Directory is supposed to be easier to configure, and the new file system, ReFS, which is supposed to improve data resiliency.

Darkon112 said:   Would it make sense to upgrade from Vista on a laptop to Win8?
(no touchscreen or any of that junk.. just curious if it'll run smoother than vista)


Yes, definitely. Vista, even now, is a resource hog. It's still slow and clunky even after ALL the updates. Vista is the worst thing since ME. Do it, and just hope Microsoft allows for a Start button and a way to avoid seeing those stupid tiles in their final release. Even if they don't, it'll still be better than Vista.

went from Windows XP desktop to a Vista laptop some years ago. encountered problems with some of my software not being compatible with Vista so i had to upgrade them. my scanner was also initially not supported but i found a trick online to enable it. would i have the same or more compatibility issues if i go to Windows 8? still using that same old scanner and rather not pay for upgrades again since my old versions work fine for me.

clearanceman said:   milkandcookies said:   alfalfa19 said:   I think windows 7 is very very good. My computers never crash, even when I leave them running for weeks. With enough RAM, the machines are very snappy, have good security, and look nice ( I know that is very important to some people). On the other hand, my trial download of Win 8 was not a pleasant OS at all. In fairness, I did not spend more than a few hours with it, and I would not do so, unless I was getting paid to use it. Maybe sometime in the distant future, I would want to try it again, but I see no reason whatsoever to "upgrade" to Win 8 at this point. I still have a very sour taste in my mouth from the abomination known as Windows Vista.

Yeah, why upgrade? 7 is great.


Because someone has to pay for Microsoft's giveaways in other countries and Bill's billions.


And Bill has given millions if not billions back as a philanthropist, how much have you given back for the less privilege? None i would assume since you're on fw.

The news is out, web based applications are in... and Windows 9 might even be cloud based, or your PC basically running the OS in IIS. You heard it here first, windows 8 is obviously lacking, but it's a step in the right direction for Microsoft and if you're a developer you'd best get onboard with javascript and HTML5.

windows8 is ms scrambling for lifeline in the deluge of chromebooks and the chromeapps..... can't believe i'm witnessing the beginning of the destruction of the giant i so hated for all my life....

SteelRing said:   windows8 is ms scrambling for lifeline in the deluge of chromebooks and the chromeapps..... can't believe i'm witnessing the beginning of the destruction of the giant i so hated for all my life....

Hated all your life, you really need to get out more often. Microsoft only started to become a big company when Windows 95 and Office 4.3 came out maybe 1996. Whan you have 97% market share there is only one place you can go. And don't worry about them they have way more diverse investments and pattens than you can imagine,

Shizle said:   you'd best get onboard with javascript and HTML5.

just like every starving "custom website for $99" sign i see around town, i very much doubt Windows 8 will keep them fed.

Shizle said:   The news is out, web based applications are in... and Windows 9 might even be cloud based, or your PC basically running the OS in IIS.

Which is hilarious to think about as the entrance of PCs in the 70s/80s was due to people trying to abandon "the cloud." The cloud is not new by any means, find someone who was into puters back in the day and they can tell you just how old it really is.


You heard it here first, windows 8 is obviously lacking, but it's a step in the right direction for Microsoft and if you're a developer you'd best get onboard with javascript and HTML5.

Thanks for the laugh, this thread was getting wayyyyyy too serious and in need of a good joke.

Mickie3 said:   Shizle said:   The news is out, web based applications are in... and Windows 9 might even be cloud based, or your PC basically running the OS in IIS.

Which is hilarious to think about as the entrance of PCs in the 70s/80s was due to people trying to abandon "the cloud." The cloud is not new by any means, find someone who was into puters back in the day and they can tell you just how old it really is.


You heard it here first, windows 8 is obviously lacking, but it's a step in the right direction for Microsoft and if you're a developer you'd best get onboard with javascript and HTML5.

Thanks for the laugh, this thread was getting wayyyyyy too serious and in need of a good joke.


When I first heard about Cloud, I was totally confused. Isn't it just some old thing with a new name? totally marketing thing but somehow it worked in turning it into hype.

mcdull said:   Mickie3 said:   Shizle said:   The news is out, web based applications are in... and Windows 9 might even be cloud based, or your PC basically running the OS in IIS.

Which is hilarious to think about as the entrance of PCs in the 70s/80s was due to people trying to abandon "the cloud." The cloud is not new by any means, find someone who was into puters back in the day and they can tell you just how old it really is.


You heard it here first, windows 8 is obviously lacking, but it's a step in the right direction for Microsoft and if you're a developer you'd best get onboard with javascript and HTML5.

Thanks for the laugh, this thread was getting wayyyyyy too serious and in need of a good joke.


When I first heard about Cloud, I was totally confused. Isn't it just some old thing with a new name? totally marketing thing but somehow it worked in turning it into hype.


Yep, the marketing departments have struck once again. Its nothing more than the same old mainframe (think HUGE server) running the apps, storing the data, holding the programs, etc. renamed to make the sheep think its something new, when its over 50 years old, at a minimum.

us said:   cptbarkey189 said:   and that confirms to what i already suspected, that Windows 8 is essentially Windows Millennium is to Windows98.

edit: in short, Windows 8 is garbage.


i was saying the same thing in another thread but nobody liked that comment. But I used the XP vs. Vista instead of ME vs. 98. Which is pretty much the same thing.


It's like the government fouling things up and then coming to the rescue because of their incompetence - make things bad, so the next step "looks" good

Where is my FREE windows 8 for attending seminars this year???

Seriously, I used to goto Seminars and get Windows OS for FREE Not this year?


I've been using Windows 8 beta for a few months and as other posters have stated. It stinks. It's frustrating. I thought with nearly daily use I would get used to it but it feels less functional than Windows 7. I'm hoping the final release will make enough changes to warrant an upgrade but if it stays nearly similar then I think people will hate it.

My Experience:

Using Windows 8 daily now for the last 4 weeks on a 2 year old laptop and a 7 year old XP based laptop. Zero issues, faster than my Windows 7 build, but as with any fresh install it is to be expected. Definitely faster than Vista and more stable. Zero blue screens to date.

I spend most of the time in desktop mode, have not had any issues without the start button on the screen, because I have a Windows Key on my keyboard. Since I organized my apps that I use most to be grouped in the first screen, no need for scrolling. I hit the Windows key, select what I need, and I am using the app I wanted faster than I did with Windows 7... probably because I never bothered to organize my start menu before. No real comments on their app marketplace so far as I don't really use many other than weather/news/stock tickers.

From my experience, no reason to jump on it, people will always complain and say XP was the greatest... I used to think that as well, but got tired of rebuilding the wife's XP spyware gulping machine every 4 months.

FYI most people I run across do not know about the <Windows Key> + X to bring up the menu similar to the start menu to get access to RUN | Power Options| My Computer | Etc. Tons of other hotkeys available I learned from a previous FW post, but I mainly use 2-3 hotkeys and that is it.

In summary, if you can get it cheap, opens you up to other options as pointed by other posters... stop listening to the same folks who complain about change every time and just go get it. My neighbor is the same way, I have heard him complain about every single OS change over the years, and every time I look, he is using the latest and gets pissed if I remind him about his rants 3 months earlier

My 2 cents,
Jay

clearanceman said:   Schmungy said:   Suddenly these guys are getting a bit more nimble and innovative in their products and proliferation. They deserve some credit.

Meanwhile, Cupertino is starting to slow down a bit. At some point the "new <xyz> just sells itself" mentality will slow them down further.

I'm not sure a PC preloaded with Vista or XP is robust enough to run Win 8 though


Is it that big a pig?


XP released in 2001, soooo, a PC preloaded with it was from 2001 soooo.....

333Mhz - 533Mhz processor.
128-256MB RAM
6GB-20GB HDD
Radeon 8500 (If you upgraded your video to top of the line) 128MB.


Soooo, no, it's not a pig by today's standards, but if you're still cranking on your Neo Geo, you're probably going to have issues next year getting PS4/XB720 games to load on it. Just sayin'.

Also to add to others' thoughts: I used Windows 8 RC for about 2 months. I dug through their forums quite a bit as I took issue with a lot of things, and read something along the lines of "Nope, this is the RC, there will be a few very minor tweaks for release, but other than that WYSIWYG!"

I uninstalled it the next day, man Windows 7 is soooooooooooooo much better. I guess Windows 8 will be fine on tablets, outside of that it's just not good. Resource-wise it's fine, UI - sucks. Compatibility - sucks. User Friendly - it's not.

Can't you use the settings on Win 8 and add an aftermarket start button to make it almost like Win 7? And cheaper to boot (pun intended).

http://www.windowsupgradeoffer.com/en-US

Stated I'd purchased a Dell PC
Got promo code via e-mail.
Downloaded Upgrade Assistant.

Bought Win 8 pro for $14.99

If you buy a qualified Windows 7 PC between June 2, 2012 and January 31, 2013, you can purchase a download of Windows 8 Pro at a special promotional price that varies by region.

This was written in today's NYT by David Pogue. I was almost ready to buy win 8. Think I'll pass. I hope this helps you.

State of the Art: Sleek Tablet, but Clumsy Software (October 24, 2012)

This may be the biggest week in Microsoft’s 37-year history. The company is releasing its very first computer (the Surface tablet), a new phone operating system (Windows Phone 8), and, believe it or not, two PC operating systems.

I’m not talking about Windows 8 and Windows RT, which are, in fact, two new and distinct operating systems from Microsoft. I mean the two different worlds within Windows 8 alone, one designed primarily for touch screens, the other for mouse and keyboard. Individually, they are excellent — but you can’t use them individually. Microsoft has combined them into a superimposed, muddled mishmash called Windows 8, which goes on sale Friday at prices ranging from $15 to $40, depending on the offer and version.

You can easily imagine how Microsoft got here. “PC sales have slowed,” some executive must have said. “This is a new age of touch screens! We need a fresh approach, a new Windows. Something bold, fluid and finger-friendly.”

“Well, hold on,” someone must have countered. “We can’t forget the 600 million regular mouse-driven PCs. We also need to update Windows 7 for them!”

And then things went terribly wrong.

“Hey, I know!” somebody piped in. “Let’s combine those two Windows versions into one. One OS for all machines. Everybody’s happy!”

Whoops.

Let’s tackle each version one at a time. (A note: I have written a how-to manual for Windows 8 for an independent publisher; it was neither commissioned by nor written in cooperation with Microsoft.)

DESKTOP WINDOWS This is my name for the traditional Windows: the land of overlapping windows, menus and the taskbar across the bottom. Here, you can run any of the four million traditional Windows apps, which Microsoft calls desktop apps: Photoshop, Quicken, tax software, games.

Windows 8’s desktop is basically the well-regarded Windows 7 with a few choice enhancements, like faster start-up, a Lock screen that displays a clock and notifications, and more control over multiple-monitor arrangements.

You can now log into any Windows 8 PC with a Microsoft ID. Boom: your wallpaper, online mail accounts, contacts, photos and SkyDrive contents are instantly available. (SkyDrive is Microsoft’s free seven-gigabyte online hard drive.)

The Task Manager now offers a table of open programs, showing which are the memory and processor hogs. File Explorer (formerly Windows Explorer) now has a collapsible toolbar. A new Refresh option lets you restore Windows to its virginal, factory-fresh condition without disturbing programs and files.

There’s a superb new feature called Family Safety, which provides you, the all-knowing parent, with a weekly summary of how much time your offspring have spent on the PC, and which Web sites, searches, programs and downloads they’ve used. You can also set time limits for weekdays and weekends.

Finally, there’s no more Start menu. The taskbar is still there, but the Start-menu icon isn’t on it. More on this in a moment.

TILEWORLD The enormous, controversial change in Windows 8 is the overlaying of the second “operating system,” intended for touch screens.

(It’s not really called TileWorld. But Microsoft doesn’t have a good name for it. Insiders know it as the Metro interface — that was its code name — but Microsoft simply refers to it as Windows 8, which is so infuriatingly confusing you feel like firing somebody. I’m going to go with TileWorld.)

TileWorld is modeled on Microsoft’s lovely Windows Phone software. It presents a home screen filled with colorful square and rectangular tiles. Each represents an app — and, often, that app’s latest data.

For example, the Calendar tile displays your next appointment. The People tile (your address book) shows the latest post from your social networks. The Mail tile shows the subject line of the latest incoming message.

TileWorld is absolutely fantastic for tablets. The tiles glide gracefully with a swipe of your finger. You can “pin” frequently used tiles to the Start screen: programs, Web sites, playlists, photo albums, people from your contacts list, mail accounts or mailboxes, icons from Desktop Windows, and, of course, apps. The tiles are fun to rearrange, resize, cluster into groups and so on.

Swiping inward from the edges of a touch screen makes panels full of useful controls appear. A quick downward swipe on a tile is like right-clicking — a panel of relevant commands shows up.

The new operating system is partly designed for touch screens.
TileWorld requires all new apps, and there aren’t very many available yet. They’re generally not as complex as regular Windows programs; they’re more like iPad apps than, say, Adobe or even most Microsoft programs. They’re full-screen, touch-friendly, mostly menuless. And they’re virus-free, since Microsoft controls the single source of them: the Windows Store.

Microsoft starts you off with apps for messaging, calendar, news, contacts, music and video playback, maps, weather, mail and photo viewing (pictures from Facebook, Flickr, your SkyDrive and other sources). It’s easy to split the screen between two TileWorld apps, so you can, for example, chug through e-mail as you watch a video.

DESKTOP + TILEWORLD TileWorld is fantastic for touch screens. Yes, there are mouse and keyboard equivalents for the touch gestures, but those are clearly afterthoughts.

Conversely, Desktop Windows is obviously designed for the mouse. Most of the menus, window controls and buttons are too small for finger operation.

Unfortunately, in Windows 8, you can’t live exclusively in one world or the other.

Even if all your programs live in TileWorld, you’ll still have to use Desktop Windows to work with files or disks, connect to networked folders or open the Control Panel. And even if all of your programs live in Desktop Windows, your PC still starts up in TileWorld, and you still have to use TileWorld to perform tasks like searching and address-book lookups.

The free program Pokki helps a lot. It restores the Start menu to the desktop, and can even take you straight there at start-up.

Even so, two worlds means insane, productivity-killing schizophrenia. The Windows 8 learning curve resembles Mount Everest.

For example, you have what feels like two different Web browsers, each with different designs and conventions. In TileWorld, the address bar is at the bottom; in Desktop Windows, it’s at the top. In the desktop version, your bookmarks appear as a Favorites list; in TileWorld, they’re horizontally scrolling icons. TileWorld has no History list at all (only autocomplete for recently visited sites).

Settings are now in three different places. In TileWorld, basic settings like brightness and volume are accessible from the panel that appears when you swipe in from the right. A second set of settings appears when you tap Change PC Settings on that panel. A third, more complete set still resides in the Control Panel back in Desktop Windows.

The Help system is a scattered mess, too. On the Desktop, you have the regular Windows Help browser. In TileWorld, Microsoft has hidden the Help command in Settings for some reason, and at the Start Screen, it offers only three canned topics (like “Rearranging tiles on Start”) and no Search command.

In some apps, like People and Mail, Help offers two links to Windows 8 discussion forums, and that’s it. In others (like Maps, Weather and Camera), the Help command doesn’t appear at all.

Maybe it’s really not that confusing. All you have to understand is this:

There are two new versions of Windows, called Windows 8, for regular PCs and some tablets, and Windows RT, for cheaper tablets and laptops (not to mention Windows 8 Pro, which adds corporate features). Each edition has two environments, which Microsoft calls the desktop and Windows 8. In the Windows 8 environment, you can run only Windows 8 apps from the Windows Store. The Windows 8 version of Windows runs both desktop apps and Windows 8 apps; Windows RT runs only Windows 8 apps. Older apps’ icons can show up in both the desktop and the Windows 8 environment, but Windows 8 apps appear only in the Windows 8 environment. The Windows store sells both kinds of apps, but is the only source of Windows 8 apps.

Got it?

Me neither.

You know what would have been perfect? Keeping the two operating systems separate. Put TileWorld and its universe of new touch screen apps on tablets. Put Windows 8 on mouse-and-keyboard PCs.

Presto: all the confusion would evaporate. And the good work Microsoft did on both of these individual operating systems would shine.

This was written in today's NYT by David Pogue. I was almost ready to buy win 8. Think I'll pass. I hope this helps you.

State of the Art: Sleek Tablet, but Clumsy Software (October 24, 2012)

This may be the biggest week in Microsoft’s 37-year history. The company is releasing its very first computer (the Surface tablet), a new phone operating system (Windows Phone 8), and, believe it or not, two PC operating systems.

I’m not talking about Windows 8 and Windows RT, which are, in fact, two new and distinct operating systems from Microsoft. I mean the two different worlds within Windows 8 alone, one designed primarily for touch screens, the other for mouse and keyboard. Individually, they are excellent — but you can’t use them individually. Microsoft has combined them into a superimposed, muddled mishmash called Windows 8, which goes on sale Friday at prices ranging from $15 to $40, depending on the offer and version.

You can easily imagine how Microsoft got here. “PC sales have slowed,” some executive must have said. “This is a new age of touch screens! We need a fresh approach, a new Windows. Something bold, fluid and finger-friendly.”

“Well, hold on,” someone must have countered. “We can’t forget the 600 million regular mouse-driven PCs. We also need to update Windows 7 for them!”

And then things went terribly wrong.

“Hey, I know!” somebody piped in. “Let’s combine those two Windows versions into one. One OS for all machines. Everybody’s happy!”

Whoops.

Let’s tackle each version one at a time. (A note: I have written a how-to manual for Windows 8 for an independent publisher; it was neither commissioned by nor written in cooperation with Microsoft.)

DESKTOP WINDOWS This is my name for the traditional Windows: the land of overlapping windows, menus and the taskbar across the bottom. Here, you can run any of the four million traditional Windows apps, which Microsoft calls desktop apps: Photoshop, Quicken, tax software, games.

Windows 8’s desktop is basically the well-regarded Windows 7 with a few choice enhancements, like faster start-up, a Lock screen that displays a clock and notifications, and more control over multiple-monitor arrangements.

You can now log into any Windows 8 PC with a Microsoft ID. Boom: your wallpaper, online mail accounts, contacts, photos and SkyDrive contents are instantly available. (SkyDrive is Microsoft’s free seven-gigabyte online hard drive.)

The Task Manager now offers a table of open programs, showing which are the memory and processor hogs. File Explorer (formerly Windows Explorer) now has a collapsible toolbar. A new Refresh option lets you restore Windows to its virginal, factory-fresh condition without disturbing programs and files.

There’s a superb new feature called Family Safety, which provides you, the all-knowing parent, with a weekly summary of how much time your offspring have spent on the PC, and which Web sites, searches, programs and downloads they’ve used. You can also set time limits for weekdays and weekends.

Finally, there’s no more Start menu. The taskbar is still there, but the Start-menu icon isn’t on it. More on this in a moment.

TILEWORLD The enormous, controversial change in Windows 8 is the overlaying of the second “operating system,” intended for touch screens.

(It’s not really called TileWorld. But Microsoft doesn’t have a good name for it. Insiders know it as the Metro interface — that was its code name — but Microsoft simply refers to it as Windows 8, which is so infuriatingly confusing you feel like firing somebody. I’m going to go with TileWorld.)

TileWorld is modeled on Microsoft’s lovely Windows Phone software. It presents a home screen filled with colorful square and rectangular tiles. Each represents an app — and, often, that app’s latest data.

For example, the Calendar tile displays your next appointment. The People tile (your address book) shows the latest post from your social networks. The Mail tile shows the subject line of the latest incoming message.

TileWorld is absolutely fantastic for tablets. The tiles glide gracefully with a swipe of your finger. You can “pin” frequently used tiles to the Start screen: programs, Web sites, playlists, photo albums, people from your contacts list, mail accounts or mailboxes, icons from Desktop Windows, and, of course, apps. The tiles are fun to rearrange, resize, cluster into groups and so on.

Swiping inward from the edges of a touch screen makes panels full of useful controls appear. A quick downward swipe on a tile is like right-clicking — a panel of relevant commands shows up.

The new operating system is partly designed for touch screens.
TileWorld requires all new apps, and there aren’t very many available yet. They’re generally not as complex as regular Windows programs; they’re more like iPad apps than, say, Adobe or even most Microsoft programs. They’re full-screen, touch-friendly, mostly menuless. And they’re virus-free, since Microsoft controls the single source of them: the Windows Store.

Microsoft starts you off with apps for messaging, calendar, news, contacts, music and video playback, maps, weather, mail and photo viewing (pictures from Facebook, Flickr, your SkyDrive and other sources). It’s easy to split the screen between two TileWorld apps, so you can, for example, chug through e-mail as you watch a video.

DESKTOP + TILEWORLD TileWorld is fantastic for touch screens. Yes, there are mouse and keyboard equivalents for the touch gestures, but those are clearly afterthoughts.

Conversely, Desktop Windows is obviously designed for the mouse. Most of the menus, window controls and buttons are too small for finger operation.

Unfortunately, in Windows 8, you can’t live exclusively in one world or the other.

Even if all your programs live in TileWorld, you’ll still have to use Desktop Windows to work with files or disks, connect to networked folders or open the Control Panel. And even if all of your programs live in Desktop Windows, your PC still starts up in TileWorld, and you still have to use TileWorld to perform tasks like searching and address-book lookups.

The free program Pokki helps a lot. It restores the Start menu to the desktop, and can even take you straight there at start-up.

Even so, two worlds means insane, productivity-killing schizophrenia. The Windows 8 learning curve resembles Mount Everest.

For example, you have what feels like two different Web browsers, each with different designs and conventions. In TileWorld, the address bar is at the bottom; in Desktop Windows, it’s at the top. In the desktop version, your bookmarks appear as a Favorites list; in TileWorld, they’re horizontally scrolling icons. TileWorld has no History list at all (only autocomplete for recently visited sites).

Settings are now in three different places. In TileWorld, basic settings like brightness and volume are accessible from the panel that appears when you swipe in from the right. A second set of settings appears when you tap Change PC Settings on that panel. A third, more complete set still resides in the Control Panel back in Desktop Windows.

The Help system is a scattered mess, too. On the Desktop, you have the regular Windows Help browser. In TileWorld, Microsoft has hidden the Help command in Settings for some reason, and at the Start Screen, it offers only three canned topics (like “Rearranging tiles on Start”) and no Search command.

In some apps, like People and Mail, Help offers two links to Windows 8 discussion forums, and that’s it. In others (like Maps, Weather and Camera), the Help command doesn’t appear at all.

Maybe it’s really not that confusing. All you have to understand is this:

There are two new versions of Windows, called Windows 8, for regular PCs and some tablets, and Windows RT, for cheaper tablets and laptops (not to mention Windows 8 Pro, which adds corporate features). Each edition has two environments, which Microsoft calls the desktop and Windows 8. In the Windows 8 environment, you can run only Windows 8 apps from the Windows Store. The Windows 8 version of Windows runs both desktop apps and Windows 8 apps; Windows RT runs only Windows 8 apps. Older apps’ icons can show up in both the desktop and the Windows 8 environment, but Windows 8 apps appear only in the Windows 8 environment. The Windows store sells both kinds of apps, but is the only source of Windows 8 apps.

Got it?

Me neither.

You know what would have been perfect? Keeping the two operating systems separate. Put TileWorld and its universe of new touch screen apps on tablets. Put Windows 8 on mouse-and-keyboard PCs.

Presto: all the confusion would evaporate. And the good work Microsoft did on both of these individual operating systems would shine.

Are you sure it's legal to copy-n-paste copyrighted contents?
Without any links?
Reposted twice, no less?
From iOS?

manoverboard said:   This was written in today's NYT by David Pogue. I was almost ready to buy win 8. Think I'll pass. I hope this helps you.

State of the Art: Sleek Tablet, but Clumsy Software (October 24, 2012)

This may be the biggest week in Microsoft’s 37-year history. The company is releasing its very first computer (the Surface tablet), a new phone operating system (Windows Phone 8), and, believe it or not, two PC operating systems.

I’m not talking about Windows 8 and Windows RT, which are, in fact, two new and distinct operating systems from Microsoft. I mean the two different worlds within Windows 8 alone, one designed primarily for touch screens, the other for mouse and keyboard. Individually, they are excellent — but you can’t use them individually. Microsoft has combined them into a superimposed, muddled mishmash called Windows 8, which goes on sale Friday at prices ranging from $15 to $40, depending on the offer and version.

You can easily imagine how Microsoft got here. “PC sales have slowed,” some executive must have said. “This is a new age of touch screens! We need a fresh approach, a new Windows. Something bold, fluid and finger-friendly.”

“Well, hold on,” someone must have countered. “We can’t forget the 600 million regular mouse-driven PCs. We also need to update Windows 7 for them!”

And then things went terribly wrong.

“Hey, I know!” somebody piped in. “Let’s combine those two Windows versions into one. One OS for all machines. Everybody’s happy!”

Whoops.

Let’s tackle each version one at a time. (A note: I have written a how-to manual for Windows 8 for an independent publisher; it was neither commissioned by nor written in cooperation with Microsoft.)

DESKTOP WINDOWS This is my name for the traditional Windows: the land of overlapping windows, menus and the taskbar across the bottom. Here, you can run any of the four million traditional Windows apps, which Microsoft calls desktop apps: Photoshop, Quicken, tax software, games.

Windows 8’s desktop is basically the well-regarded Windows 7 with a few choice enhancements, like faster start-up, a Lock screen that displays a clock and notifications, and more control over multiple-monitor arrangements.

You can now log into any Windows 8 PC with a Microsoft ID. Boom: your wallpaper, online mail accounts, contacts, photos and SkyDrive contents are instantly available. (SkyDrive is Microsoft’s free seven-gigabyte online hard drive.)

The Task Manager now offers a table of open programs, showing which are the memory and processor hogs. File Explorer (formerly Windows Explorer) now has a collapsible toolbar. A new Refresh option lets you restore Windows to its virginal, factory-fresh condition without disturbing programs and files.

There’s a superb new feature called Family Safety, which provides you, the all-knowing parent, with a weekly summary of how much time your offspring have spent on the PC, and which Web sites, searches, programs and downloads they’ve used. You can also set time limits for weekdays and weekends.

Finally, there’s no more Start menu. The taskbar is still there, but the Start-menu icon isn’t on it. More on this in a moment.

TILEWORLD The enormous, controversial change in Windows 8 is the overlaying of the second “operating system,” intended for touch screens.

(It’s not really called TileWorld. But Microsoft doesn’t have a good name for it. Insiders know it as the Metro interface — that was its code name — but Microsoft simply refers to it as Windows 8, which is so infuriatingly confusing you feel like firing somebody. I’m going to go with TileWorld.)

TileWorld is modeled on Microsoft’s lovely Windows Phone software. It presents a home screen filled with colorful square and rectangular tiles. Each represents an app — and, often, that app’s latest data.

For example, the Calendar tile displays your next appointment. The People tile (your address book) shows the latest post from your social networks. The Mail tile shows the subject line of the latest incoming message.

TileWorld is absolutely fantastic for tablets. The tiles glide gracefully with a swipe of your finger. You can “pin” frequently used tiles to the Start screen: programs, Web sites, playlists, photo albums, people from your contacts list, mail accounts or mailboxes, icons from Desktop Windows, and, of course, apps. The tiles are fun to rearrange, resize, cluster into groups and so on.

Swiping inward from the edges of a touch screen makes panels full of useful controls appear. A quick downward swipe on a tile is like right-clicking — a panel of relevant commands shows up.

The new operating system is partly designed for touch screens.
TileWorld requires all new apps, and there aren’t very many available yet. They’re generally not as complex as regular Windows programs; they’re more like iPad apps than, say, Adobe or even most Microsoft programs. They’re full-screen, touch-friendly, mostly menuless. And they’re virus-free, since Microsoft controls the single source of them: the Windows Store.

Microsoft starts you off with apps for messaging, calendar, news, contacts, music and video playback, maps, weather, mail and photo viewing (pictures from Facebook, Flickr, your SkyDrive and other sources). It’s easy to split the screen between two TileWorld apps, so you can, for example, chug through e-mail as you watch a video.

DESKTOP + TILEWORLD TileWorld is fantastic for touch screens. Yes, there are mouse and keyboard equivalents for the touch gestures, but those are clearly afterthoughts.

Conversely, Desktop Windows is obviously designed for the mouse. Most of the menus, window controls and buttons are too small for finger operation.

Unfortunately, in Windows 8, you can’t live exclusively in one world or the other.

Even if all your programs live in TileWorld, you’ll still have to use Desktop Windows to work with files or disks, connect to networked folders or open the Control Panel. And even if all of your programs live in Desktop Windows, your PC still starts up in TileWorld, and you still have to use TileWorld to perform tasks like searching and address-book lookups.

The free program Pokki helps a lot. It restores the Start menu to the desktop, and can even take you straight there at start-up.

Even so, two worlds means insane, productivity-killing schizophrenia. The Windows 8 learning curve resembles Mount Everest.

For example, you have what feels like two different Web browsers, each with different designs and conventions. In TileWorld, the address bar is at the bottom; in Desktop Windows, it’s at the top. In the desktop version, your bookmarks appear as a Favorites list; in TileWorld, they’re horizontally scrolling icons. TileWorld has no History list at all (only autocomplete for recently visited sites).

Settings are now in three different places. In TileWorld, basic settings like brightness and volume are accessible from the panel that appears when you swipe in from the right. A second set of settings appears when you tap Change PC Settings on that panel. A third, more complete set still resides in the Control Panel back in Desktop Windows.

The Help system is a scattered mess, too. On the Desktop, you have the regular Windows Help browser. In TileWorld, Microsoft has hidden the Help command in Settings for some reason, and at the Start Screen, it offers only three canned topics (like “Rearranging tiles on Start”) and no Search command.

In some apps, like People and Mail, Help offers two links to Windows 8 discussion forums, and that’s it. In others (like Maps, Weather and Camera), the Help command doesn’t appear at all.

Maybe it’s really not that confusing. All you have to understand is this:

There are two new versions of Windows, called Windows 8, for regular PCs and some tablets, and Windows RT, for cheaper tablets and laptops (not to mention Windows 8 Pro, which adds corporate features). Each edition has two environments, which Microsoft calls the desktop and Windows 8. In the Windows 8 environment, you can run only Windows 8 apps from the Windows Store. The Windows 8 version of Windows runs both desktop apps and Windows 8 apps; Windows RT runs only Windows 8 apps. Older apps’ icons can show up in both the desktop and the Windows 8 environment, but Windows 8 apps appear only in the Windows 8 environment. The Windows store sells both kinds of apps, but is the only source of Windows 8 apps.

Got it?

Me neither.

You know what would have been perfect? Keeping the two operating systems separate. Put TileWorld and its universe of new touch screen apps on tablets. Put Windows 8 on mouse-and-keyboard PCs.

Presto: all the confusion would evaporate. And the good work Microsoft did on both of these individual operating systems would shine.

I've got 2 copies of Windows 8 and I just keep staring at them. Thinking do I really want to rock my world so radically. And every day it's a no. I think I'll wait for Windows 9 (hoping they release an actual desktop OS.) It would look really silly me trying to touch my two 24" non-touch screens all day. I've been in the business end of the IT world for over 15 years and I have high doubts that Windows 8 will make it to many corporate desktops. The learning curve is just too high and way too expensive. If "Tile World" is indeed here to stay for desktops then actual productivity on desktops is going to suffer greatly IMO.

ChiefBrody said:   I've got 2 copies of Windows 8 and I just keep staring at them. Thinking do I really want to rock my world so radically. And every day it's a no. I think I'll wait for Windows 9 (hoping they release an actual desktop OS.) It would look really silly me trying to touch my two 24" non-touch screens all day. I've been in the business end of the IT world for over 15 years and I have high doubts that Windows 8 will make it to many corporate desktops. The learning curve is just too high and way too expensive. If "Tile World" is indeed here to stay for desktops then actual productivity on desktops is going to suffer greatly IMO.

I think Microsoft's goal here is to eventually phase out the "desktop" part of Windows entirely. If you think about it, once that happens, not only will every Windows program will be an "app" that MS gets control over (and a cut of the sale), but phone and tablet makers will flock to Microsoft and beg them for the ability to put Windows 9 on their next smartphone.

It's a brilliant marketing ploy, except for that one tiny flaw that you pointed out: "Tile World" sucks ass for desktop users, and the only people who will upgrade to Windows 8 will undoubtedly employ software that "kills" Tile World and makes Windows 8 run exactly like Windows 7, only better, and they won't give a rat's ass about the "apps".

Either that, or the public will finally get fed up with MS's BS entirely, and switch over to Linux en masse. Seriously, other than software and driver support, is there anything Windows does that Linux doesn't do just as well if not better?

ChiefBrody said:   I've got 2 copies of Windows 8 and I just keep staring at them. Thinking do I really want to rock my world so radically. And every day it's a no. I think I'll wait for Windows 9 (hoping they release an actual desktop OS.) It would look really silly me trying to touch my two 24" non-touch screens all day. I've been in the business end of the IT world for over 15 years and I have high doubts that Windows 8 will make it to many corporate desktops. The learning curve is just too high and way too expensive. If "Tile World" is indeed here to stay for desktops then actual productivity on desktops is going to suffer greatly IMO.
I stared at my Win8 box for about an hour today before just installing it. I don't miss Win7. As soon as you realize you can tap the Windows key and have your precious desktop, you're good. That and Windows key+X. That and realizing that "OMG TILEZ" are nothing more than large desktop icons (shortcuts), you're golden.

The underlying code is what makes Win8 so great. I'm a fan after a few hours. Don't miss Win7 at all...in fact, it feels old (my work computer has it).

But there will always be critics, I guess. Time will win this war. Might as well jump in while the water's warm (and cheap).

Yes, the zombie usability habits we have built over the past 15 years take over. But spend 2 hours navigating it and you will learn the differences that are necessary to feel right at home. 2 hours to fix 15 years of the same. Not that hard.

And David Pogue is a douche. Seriously guy? It's not that hard. Go hug your Macbook for all of us.

Edit: My Lenovo T520 isn't touch and it matters not. No reaching for the screen, ever.

coolbreeze said:   ChiefBrody said:   I've got 2 copies of Windows 8 and I just keep staring at them. Thinking do I really want to rock my world so radically. And every day it's a no. I think I'll wait for Windows 9 (hoping they release an actual desktop OS.) It would look really silly me trying to touch my two 24" non-touch screens all day. I've been in the business end of the IT world for over 15 years and I have high doubts that Windows 8 will make it to many corporate desktops. The learning curve is just too high and way too expensive. If "Tile World" is indeed here to stay for desktops then actual productivity on desktops is going to suffer greatly IMO.
I stared at my Win8 box for about an hour today before just installing it. I don't miss Win7. As soon as you realize you can tap the Windows key and have your precious desktop, you're good. That and Windows key+X. That and realizing that "OMG TILEZ" are nothing more than large desktop icons (shortcuts), you're golden.

The underlying code is what makes Win8 so great. I'm a fan after a few hours. Don't miss Win7 at all...in fact, it feels old (my work computer has it).

But there will always be critics, I guess. Time will win this war. Might as well jump in while the water's warm (and cheap).

Yes, the zombie usability habits we have built over the past 15 years take over. But spend 2 hours navigating it and you will learn the differences that are necessary to feel right at home. 2 hours to fix 15 years of the same. Not that hard.

And David Pogue is a douche. Seriously guy? It's not that hard. Go hug your Macbook for all of us.

Edit: My Lenovo T520 isn't touch and it matters not. No reaching for the screen, ever.



Not sure I would go that far, but he is certainly a pro-Apple bigot. For that reason, I, too consider his reviews amusing rather than informative.

Will install 8 this weekend and take a look at it, but will make sure I can go back to 7 if I want / need to, backups are good things.

Mickie3 said:   coolbreeze said:   ChiefBrody said:   I've got 2 copies of Windows 8 and I just keep staring at them. Thinking do I really want to rock my world so radically. And every day it's a no. I think I'll wait for Windows 9 (hoping they release an actual desktop OS.) It would look really silly me trying to touch my two 24" non-touch screens all day. I've been in the business end of the IT world for over 15 years and I have high doubts that Windows 8 will make it to many corporate desktops. The learning curve is just too high and way too expensive. If "Tile World" is indeed here to stay for desktops then actual productivity on desktops is going to suffer greatly IMO.
I stared at my Win8 box for about an hour today before just installing it. I don't miss Win7. As soon as you realize you can tap the Windows key and have your precious desktop, you're good. That and Windows key+X. That and realizing that "OMG TILEZ" are nothing more than large desktop icons (shortcuts), you're golden.

The underlying code is what makes Win8 so great. I'm a fan after a few hours. Don't miss Win7 at all...in fact, it feels old (my work computer has it).

But there will always be critics, I guess. Time will win this war. Might as well jump in while the water's warm (and cheap).

Yes, the zombie usability habits we have built over the past 15 years take over. But spend 2 hours navigating it and you will learn the differences that are necessary to feel right at home. 2 hours to fix 15 years of the same. Not that hard.

And David Pogue is a douche. Seriously guy? It's not that hard. Go hug your Macbook for all of us.

Edit: My Lenovo T520 isn't touch and it matters not. No reaching for the screen, ever.



Not sure I would go that far, but he is certainly a pro-Apple bigot. For that reason, I, too consider his reviews amusing rather than informative.

Will install 8 this weekend and take a look at it, but will make sure I can go back to 7 if I want / need to, backups are good things.

Yeah, I guess I was all angry last night when I typed it

I see his perspective I guess, but honestly if you spend just a little while with the interface, it's fresh and actually makes sense - even without a touchscreen. I have zero issues navigating anything at all. I don't see the issue here. Yes, it's a change, but not the earth-riveting nightmare people make it out to be at first glance.

i love ignorant people who has never tried it yet, say they'd rather stick to win7.

Win8 is even better than win7, you get a streamlined OS like win xp, look and feel of win7 but no Aero junk and Metro (And yes you can turn this off using a 3rd party app like "Classic Start Menu"). I find win8 faster than win7.

Maybe I'm in the minority...but I'm loving Windows 8, on a desktop machine. I'm still not convinced the new Metro interface is proper for a desktop but it IS growing on me. I run in standard desktop mode probably 90% of the time. People fail to realize you can easily avoid the "new" Metro stuff if you wish. And it still runs faster and smoother than even Windows 7 (which was great). I'm very happy with the performance and some of the new features and functionality. It's everything Windows 7 was with some nice new touches.

I highly recommend a program called Start8 (yes it cost $4.95) you can configure everything, put the Start menu back, etc. I know there are some free alternatives but for $5 I was happy to do it.

Change is always a sticky thing, we as humans are naturally resistant to it. Windows 8 looks and runs great, quit living in the past. At $40 this is a no-brainer. I didn't worry one bit about DVD functionality being removed as I use VLC for all my video needs anyway. There is a workaround to get Media Center and DVD functionality back "FREE" if you search around a bit. I have no use for either but YMMV.



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