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gtd2000 said:    Pint (20oz) at the pub

That's my kind of pint!

Overzeetop said:   gtd2000 said:    Pint (20oz) at the pub

That's my kind of pint!


Of course the 20oz pint is just for regular guys.

If you have bigger than average testicles you can always order by the Yard!

What's a Yard of Ale?

Diesels got a bad rap here in the 70s and 80s. That made them pretty much unmarketable. Stinky, less reliable, poor winter starting... Yeah, things are different, but the perception stuck.

needdealsnow said:   IMO Prius is a better buy and your calculations are a bit off

Cost of gas for Prius in your example would be $1680/2 = $840
So net savings with leaf would be $840 - $452 = $382 or $32 per month or $1100 over 3 years

Is it really worth paying 7-8k upfront on leaf when you can buy a Prius for about 18K and sell it 3 years later for 14-15k? Plus in my experience with Prius, it is impossible to remain under 12k per year. I normally use Prius for most of my driving and put on 20k miles per year. If I replicate that situation to Leaf, lease overrun would be devastating. Also we are going to need offices to put charging stations out. If charging at work is not an option and your commute is 70 miles, you are going to need a full charge overnight. But that is not going to happen on 120V. So install 240V charger. That charger has to be outside the home too because my garage cannot hold a car any more. Don't know how many people use garage for vehicles but most I see in CA have cars outside

Idea is nice for limited situations. Needs work to be practical in most situations

[


I think this post illustrates that it would be foolish to jump into one of these leases before carefully analyzing your driving habits. For me, I do have a garage, my commute is <20 miles round trip, and I have a second vehicle that can be used for long trips and to insure I don't exceed the lease miles. I've crunched the numbers and even if I max out the lease miles on the LEAF it still boils down to whether or not I want to spend a couple hundred a month (after gas savings) on something I won't own. Yeah, that's the deal with a lease, but I was really hoping the gas savings would put me closer to breaking even.

jplee3 said:   GTFan said:   jerosen said:   The cost to operate the Leaf will depend on your local electricity costs. That can vary a lot.
It has a 24 kWh battery. National average cost for electricity is 11 cents per kWh. So on average it costs about $2.64 to charge the battery. Then you get say 70 miles out of that. That comes out to about 3.8 cents per mile.
Compare to a car that gets 25 MPG average. If gas is $3.50 then you're paying 14 cents per mile.
If you drive 12,000 miles a year the Leaf will cost you about $452 a year in electricity to operate. The 25MPG car will cost you $1680.

Thats about $100/month savings. Or more like $50/month versus a Prius.

Of course individual savings will depend on all the variables.


Good post and example but don't forget about the other costs that make the Leaf cheaper - no oil changes, tuneups, cooling or trans service and brakes last forever with regen. I think pretty much all you'd need are tires but I haven't looked at the Leaf's maint schedule.

EDIT: according to this CU article, cooling flushes are required at same interval as gas cars, and they say brake fluid changes are more frequent but can't figure out why. But few people get brake fluid changed anyway so both of these are kind of a wash. The real savings are in not having to do oil and trans fluid changes (and no need for brakes) since gas engine tuneups are infrequent now too.


Don't you still need to replace the brake pads though? And also, aren't most of these savings really meaningful if you own the car in the long-run versus a 3-year lease? Guess it depends on how much you drive, etc.


Brakes last forever on cars with regenerative braking, as I said. Routine to get over 100k for pads.

I'm in negotiations for a 2102 SL lease here in WA. Got quoted $290 / mo for 34 month lease, 0 down. Great deal by conventional standards, but perhaps not by recent Leaf standards. For instance, this $180 / mo, 0 down lease smokes my deal (granted it may be to good to be true).

My quote also includes a $395 "disposition" fee if you opt *not* to buy the car.

Would appreciate other data points or thoughts, will let the FW community know how our case goes.

OK, just got an SL for $363/mo, 24 months, 15k miles, 0 down, they make first payment. The lease qualifies for a $5k GA tax credit (which will take me a second year to get all of). So in the end it's (363*23-$5000)/24=$140/mo. Someone in Atlanta did $42/mo ($1000) better 6 weeks ago but those rates appear to no longer be available. Maybe I could have gotten a third of that by hopping around to dealers in Atlanta or even half of it by going down to 12k mi/yr but it's 2 hours away, would have been a major hassle w/ the EV, and may not have netted anything. Also, my local dealer has been great to work with so I'm happy.

Got an 2102 SL lease offer here in CA. Got quoted $259/mo for 39 month lease, 0 down. 12k mi/yr.

Options for this lease are:
39 Month Lease, 12k Miles @ Year
$3999 Down = $160 @ Month*
$2499 Down = $196 @ Month*
$1999 Down = $209 @ Month*
$ZERO Down = $259 @ Month*

Seems like the zero down is the best option.

I've been shopping for a Leaf SL lease in ATL. Gwinnett Mall of GA advertised 199/ mo w 1999 down... I got offered $270/ mo with 0 down at another dealer should I wait for the 2013 TN Leafs to be announced before jumping on one of the lease offers? Shuld I even consider a 2011 dealer demo SL for $27,500 purchase?

The dealer I talked to in WI said he thinks there will be better lease deals in Dec.

ERICHNER said:   I've been shopping for a Leaf SL lease in ATL. Gwinnett Mall of GA advertised 199/ mo w 1999 down... I got offered $270/ mo with 0 down at another dealer should I wait for the 2013 TN Leafs to be announced before jumping on one of the lease offers? Shuld I even consider a 2011 dealer demo SL for $27,500 purchase?

Consider that battery replacement quotes go from $9,000 to $18,000. I wouldn't want to be on the hook for that after how ever many years. These are vehicles for leasing, not buying.

If someone that currently owns a Leaf would do a quick review that might help some that are sitting on the fence.
Things like range, top speed, best/worst thing about the car.

Today's offers in Atlanta $3,999 down and $99 / mo 15000 miles/yr 24 mos lease or $307 with 0 down...

What will it be? Wait for December?

Wow, effectively $57/mo on that first deal assuming no gotchas (the one Atl dealer I called said 0 down but when pressed said there would be ~$1600 due at signing; guessing first month's lease + taxes). I would definitely jump on that. What dealer?

What dealer in the ATL?

ERICHNER said:   I've been shopping for a Leaf SL lease in ATL. Gwinnett Mall of GA advertised 199/ mo w 1999 down... I got offered $270/ mo with 0 down at another dealer should I wait for the 2013 TN Leafs to be announced before jumping on one of the lease offers? Shuld I even consider a 2011 dealer demo SL for $27,500 purchase?
Who has the demo 2011 for sale? You know that this car would be $15k in GA after fed and state tax credits (if you qualify), right? That's a killer deal if it has less than 5k miles on it.

GTFan said:   ERICHNER said:   I've been shopping for a Leaf SL lease in ATL. Gwinnett Mall of GA advertised 199/ mo w 1999 down... I got offered $270/ mo with 0 down at another dealer should I wait for the 2013 TN Leafs to be announced before jumping on one of the lease offers? Shuld I even consider a 2011 dealer demo SL for $27,500 purchase?
Who has the demo 2011 for sale? You know that this car would be $15k in GA after fed and state tax credits (if you qualify), right? That's a killer deal if it has less than 5k miles on it.
Yes it should be, plus $2k in sales tax. I would make sure to get a letter in writing from the DoR that it still qualifies and make sure it doesn't say demo (or used) anywhere on the sales contract. Being at least a year old I would bet it has more than 5k miles on it and probably 25% less range (no need to care for the batteries on a demo) but even so you should easily be able to (re)sell it for more than $17k.

I think I'll get the 2011. Only has 311 miles, comes with complete 3 year warranty. 3.6% financing with 0 down. Will refinance with my 401k when I get the 12,500 tax credit , then try to sell it later to get a 2013 lease at the end of the year.... you can't beat the 0.02 per kwh Ga Power electric car rate....

You must lease for at least 36 months in order to qualify for the California $2500 rebate. Another all electric vehicle worth looking at is the Ford Focus Electric. You can get great lease deals on remaining 2012. The Ford charges in 3-4 hours and can go a few miles further than the leaf.

OK so what's the catch with the new 2012 Leafs at a Maryland CarMax? They have several for sale less than $30k (some as cheap as $27k) but they're non-transferable. Does this mean that anyone could fly up, buy one, get it shipped to GA (or wherever) and claim the full credits? I can't see a reason why this wouldn't work. I thought that maybe they were factoring in some sort of MD-specific tax credit and they do have a $2k excise tax credit but I'm not sure if this is taken off at purchase or not.

MD to GA in a car that needs 8 hours of charging after 70-80 miles? That's one long trip.

Leased the leaf a month and a half ago and love it. In California the state gives a $2500 rebate for a lease of 36 months or more. Considering the savings in gas and no worries about the car depreciating in value this is a no brainier. Driving a loaded car with Navigation, heated seats, bluetooth etc for $199 is a steal deal. Drive it for 3 years and return it.

BTW: my electricity costs for charging is approx $45/month.

slickdeal45 said:   MD to GA in a car that needs 8 hours of charging after 70-80 miles? That's one long trip. You can use quick charge stations for probably a third of the trip (30 mins to get ~100 mi) but most of the rest would probably be 120V (15+ hours/100 mi). Obviously it would be sensible to have the car shipped.

any recommendations for in home charging stations for the nissan Leaf? GA gets them via the EV p roject and they have a choice of 4 units, voltec, blink, power express, ge wattstation...

ERICHNER said:   any recommendations for in home charging stations for the nissan Leaf? GA gets them via the EV p roject and they have a choice of 4 units, voltec, blink, power express, ge wattstation... You should post this on one of the EV forums. Just to expound/clarify, a handful of large cities such as Atlanta currently qualify for free 240V charging stations (at 16A, charging 2.67 times as fast as 120V @ 12A). I've heard the installation is very expensive but the total package is still worth doing if you were going to get one anyway. I personally have no need for one and doubt the convenience added would be worth the expense to me even if I qualified (by living in Atlanta) because the car might as well be plugged in while I sleep.

thanks... received today my 2011 Nissan Leaf SL for 29k drive out price with 334 miles on it, got a free 240v charger for 119 to take care of the installation. i feel like a kid on his first bike. Looking forward to do my taxes and get 12,500 tax credit. got all for 0 down and 3.19%... what a Christmas gift! if only i could charge it at work I would be totally golden.

cool. had u considered leasing or did u know u wanted to buy?

I got one in Auburn,Washington for 219/month for 24 months, 12k miles per year, 0 down, no sales tax and they made first month payment.
I use it for a third car and figured the cost for the lease + electricity is a little less than I spend for gas in our trucks plus saving the wear and tear on them.

river8089 said:   I got one in Auburn,Washington for 219/month for 24 months, 12k miles per year, 0 down, no sales tax and they made first month payment.
I use it for a third car and figured the cost for the lease + electricity is a little less than I spend for gas in our trucks plus saving the wear and tear on them.
How did you avoid the sales tax?

ERICHNER said:   thanks... received today my 2011 Nissan Leaf SL for 29k drive out price with 334 miles on it, got a free 240v charger for 119 to take care of the installation. i feel like a kid on his first bike. Looking forward to do my taxes and get 12,500 tax credit. got all for 0 down and 3.19%... what a Christmas gift! if only i could charge it at work I would be totally golden.

tax credit is $7500. How are you getting 12,500?

I considered leasing, but putting 3-4k down didn't make sense unless the monthly payment was eeally low. GA has a 5000 tax credit for either purchase or lease, but I wanted to capture the 7500 federal tax credit.Buying a 2011 which was 3k cheaper to begin with, allowed me to make the whole transaction work, and after my tax credits this coming spring, i might refinance the loan to make payments below my current cost of gas. That and no money down was the clincher. I will in fact get a check back from the dealer since they overcharged my sales tax by mistake.

No sales tax on electric cars in Washington state. I didn't know this till the wife brought the thing home.

river8089 said:   No sales tax on electric cars in Washington state. I didn't know this till the wife brought the thing home.That is incredible. On Nov. 24th I leased a SL here in Illinois and discovered that this is one of a few states that requires sales tax on the full price of the vehicle. I'm sick thinking about the 7.25% on over 38k I just wasted. Paying $366/mo. for 36 with nothing down. Close to $80 per mo. is for sales tax alone.

akbrush said:   river8089 said:   No sales tax on electric cars in Washington state. I didn't know this till the wife brought the thing home.That is incredible. On Nov. 24th I leased a SL here in Illinois and discovered that this is one of a few states that requires sales tax on the full price of the vehicle. I'm sick thinking about the 7.25% on over 38k I just wasted. Paying $366/mo. for 36 with nothing down. Close to $80 per mo. is for sales tax alone.
WOW!

You might also want to check out the C-Max Energi. Lots of options out now.

ERICHNER said:   thanks... received today my 2011 Nissan Leaf SL for 29k drive out price with 334 miles on it, got a free 240v charger for 119 to take care of the installation. i feel like a kid on his first bike. Looking forward to do my taxes and get 12,500 tax credit. got all for 0 down and 3.19%... what a Christmas gift! if only i could charge it at work I would be totally golden. Congrats, you got a great deal! They must have just used it for test drives. Even so, you should measure your gids (battery capacity) to check for degradation.

People on the EV forums have had a lot of trouble with the $7500 credit so prepare for a hassle and possibly ~9 month delay in getting it. If I were you, if the same deals are available in February I'd resell just before March when ad valorem tax goes away and rebuy or lease afterwards. You'll save another 1% in sales tax, won't have to opt-in to the new system, double dip on the credits, and sell for theoretically higher because (6%) sales tax will apply to private party sales come March. And I think the 2013 MY arrives then so you could choose between that or hopefully a similar deal on a '12.

leprechanmonkie said:   Good deal on these, but its sad we can't just use the technology that allows Europeans to get 70+ mpg diesels for years. And sadly, many how these high mileage diesels are made in the USA as well!

http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/about-us/news/433/a-real-family-car-...
That's constant speed highway mileage (the European test is different from the EPA) with a European gallon (4.5L instead of 3.78L) using a pokey 1.6L TDI that wouldn't sell well here and is far slower than the Leaf or Volt. The Passat 2.0L TDI - the posterboy for clean Diesel - gets 71MPG highway in Europe, but the more realistic EPA test cycle yields 34MPG combined, and on top of that only gets the rather average bin 5 emissions rating instead of the bin 2 of good gasoline cars.

If you want further proof, note that the soon to be released Jetta hybrid gets 45MPG combined compared to 34MPG for the TDI. In real world driving, the hybrids available in the US are more efficient that the diesels in Europe with their misleading 70+ MPG labels.

Don't understand "You'll save another 1% in sales tax" - Any car purchased after January 1st 2012 has the option to opt in the never ad-valorem scam by one time conversion to 6.5% tax. In my case I paid 6% so for 0.5% of 27,000 or about 135 - I will never pay yearly birthday ad-valorem. This will be due on my birthday in 2013.

Can you send a link to the discussion about the hard to get by federal income tax credit? What's so hard about it if I have paid much more than the credit?

a week later and over 350 electric miles I am a very happy camper with my 2011 Nissan Leaf.

TheMeliorist said:   ERICHNER said:   thanks... received today my 2011 Nissan Leaf SL for 29k drive out price with 334 miles on it, got a free 240v charger for 119 to take care of the installation. i feel like a kid on his first bike. Looking forward to do my taxes and get 12,500 tax credit. got all for 0 down and 3.19%... what a Christmas gift! if only i could charge it at work I would be totally golden. Congrats, you got a great deal! They must have just used it for test drives. Even so, you should measure your gids (battery capacity) to check for degradation.

People on the EV forums have had a lot of trouble with the $7500 credit so prepare for a hassle and possibly ~9 month delay in getting it. If I were you, if the same deals are available in February I'd resell just before March when ad valorem tax goes away and rebuy or lease afterwards. You'll save another 1% in sales tax, won't have to opt-in to the new system, double dip on the credits, and sell for theoretically higher because (6%) sales tax will apply to private party sales come March. And I think the 2013 MY arrives then so you could choose between that or hopefully a similar deal on a '12.


I think the issue folks are having with the federal tax credit is that they don't fully understand it and of course some dealers are purposely not being clear about it. Here's how it works, on the Nissan Leaf, the federal tax credit is $7,500 in 2012. However, you may or may not get the full $7,500. First, the tax credit only goes to the original owner, so if you buy used or buy a car that was registered with the dealership, there is no tax credit. Second, and this is very pertinent to this deal, if you lease, the tax credit goes to the leasing company, not you. That's actually how Nissan can offer you this deal, it's because they collect the $7,500. And third, if you purchase new, the tax credit belongs to you. You get it when you file your 2012 income tax return (by April 2013 for most of us), but you will only get a credit against the federal income tax you paid/owe for 2012. If your taxes are more than $7,500, then you will get the full credit. If your taxes are less than $7,500, then you will benefit up to the amount you paid/owe for the year. Now I say paid/owe just to be clear - remember, you're withholding (paying) federal taxes with each paycheck, so that counts and will be adjusted based on your refund or amount you owe when you file. As long as you've paid in total, more than $7,500 in federal income taxes in 2012, you will receive the whole credit. Hopefully that helps to clarify.

Some states do have their own incentives and each one is different. You should research you particular state for more details. I live in Washington and as someone posted earlier, our benefit is no sales tax until mid 2015. What this means if you live in Washington is that you will pay no sales tax on your lease payments until the tax holiday expires in 2015. If your lease is longer, you will pay sales tax (unless it's extended) on payments made after the expiration. If you decide to buy the car at the residual value, if it's after expiration, you will pay sales tax on that amount.

Do also note that President Obama has proposed increasing the tax credit to $10,000 in 2013. Not sure if it's going to pass nor if it would apply to the Leaf, but potentially another reason to wait.



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