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gaijin4life said:   horizon6 said:   The TiVo product/service is very good. But beginning to fall behind the curve while becoming more expensive. It uses free/open software...

Not completely true anymore. They put Adobe Flash on top of the Linux kernel for the Premiere.


Does
"Not completely true anymore. They put Adobe Flash on top of the Linux kernel ______"
contradict
"_____ beginning to fall behind the curve ______"
?

horizon6 said:   gaijin4life said:   horizon6 said:   The TiVo product/service is very good. But beginning to fall behind the curve while becoming more expensive. It uses free/open software...

Not completely true anymore. They put Adobe Flash on top of the Linux kernel for the Premiere.


Does
"Not completely true anymore. They put Adobe Flash on top of the Linux kernel ______"
contradict
"_____ beginning to fall behind the curve ______"
?


More evidence TiVo is falling behind:

No Amazon Prime Streaming app
Hulu on TiVo has been mostly broken for months with no fix in sight

We bought the Premiere as what we thought was the total convergence box. Look at the specs it looks perfect:


It checks nearly all the boxes for a convergence TV STB. Except "Amazon Instant" DOES NOT include Amazon Prime streaming, only paid downloadable Amazon content. The Hulu Plus client is slow, which we can deal with, but for weeks it will just stop working returning a v301 message whenever you try to start most shows making it mostly worthless.

When we purchased TiVo was offering an "Antenna Only" (no CableCard use) subscription for $9.99/month. It wasn't stated this was a limited time deal and it expired before a free trial period we were using was up the the $19.99.

It isn't nearly as nice as it seems on paper. The solution that finally has made it fully functional, as the spec above suggest, was to use a PC (Playon software) as a server to do the streaming to the TiVo Premiere.

beezer86 said:   Love TiVo! Plan on ripping this open and putting a 2 TB hard drive to bump the recording to 320+ hours.
This one: http://www.amazon.com/WD-AV-GP-TB-Hard-Drive/dp/B0042AG9V8/

Yup! Have done the hard drive upgrade and it works and doesn't affect the lifetime plan. AV-GP 2tb is the only way to go baby! Same exact hard drive TiVo uses in the XL Tivos. But if you aren't used to opening up a desktop computer and don't know how to change the boot order in the motherboard bios, your may be overwhelmed. For me, it was easy and only took about an hour.
http://www.rosswalker.co.uk/tivo_upgrade/#linux_premiere
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS_KZsJ4vaQ&feature=related

beezer86 said:   Love TiVo! Plan on ripping this open and putting a 2 TB hard drive to bump the recording to 320+ hours.
This one: http://www.amazon.com/WD-AV-GP-TB-Hard-Drive/dp/B0042AG9V8/
Picked up a WD Caviar GP 2TB at Best Buy last night for $60 (after $50 off $100) coupon.

Will bump the capacity of my TivoHD from 20 hours to 300+ hours.

NoMoneyInMyWallet said:   beezer86 said:   Love TiVo! Plan on ripping this open and putting a 2 TB hard drive to bump the recording to 320+ hours.
This one: http://www.amazon.com/WD-AV-GP-TB-Hard-Drive/dp/B0042AG9V8/
Picked up a WD Caviar GP 2TB at Best Buy last night for $60 (after $50 off $100) coupon.

Will bump the capacity of my TivoHD from 20 hours to 300+ hours.

You realize that's a different drive model, right? The one you got is a standard data drive like all the other retailers sell. The Western Digital AV-GP that he included the Amazon link to is a specialized DVR video drive not found in most stores. A standard drive will still work but the AV-GP is supposed to give smooth, uninterrupted performance. If the DVR encounters a bad spot on the drive, normal hard drives stutter on it and try to play through it. The AV-GP won't hang and is programmed to immediately skip over bad hard drive sectors so there's no playback freezing/hangups.

There is no need for "AV" drives. I have four TiVo HDs running non-AV WD drives non-stop for the past 4.5+ years. All lifetime, of course.

Is this only for existing subscribers? The code shows up only for $50 off now, for a total of $699.98.

iamwildbill said:   Just got an email from TiVo for the Premiere 4 with Lifetime for $599.98 direct from TiVo. Not a bad deal. Use promo code: BigGame when checking out at TiVo.com

c3 said:   There is no need for "AV" drives. I have four TiVo HDs running non-AV WD drives non-stop for the past 4.5+ years. All lifetime, of course.

Agreed, however the AV drives are made for low noise, low power, better A/V performance and longer MTBF, no head parking, etc. They used to be much more expensive than regular data drives, but not so much anymore. Worth the extra few $$ these days, IMO.

Toddler said:   Agreed, however the AV drives are made for low noise, low power, better A/V performance and longer MTBF, no head parking, etc. They used to be much more expensive than regular data drives, but not so much anymore. Worth the extra few $$ these days, IMO.

If the price difference is neglible, then might as well get the AV drive. However, sometimes you can find great deals on non-AV drives. The only real difference between WD GP and AV-GP is the ATA streaming command set. Unless the TiVo can actually use the streaming commands, there is no AV advantage. Furthermore, if the drive is bad enough to cause recording/playback issues, I would rather replace the drive. Ignoring the errors is just hiding the problem, not solving it. I don't run any hard drives without battery backup.

Toddler said:   c3 said:   There is no need for "AV" drives. I have four TiVo HDs running non-AV WD drives non-stop for the past 4.5+ years. All lifetime, of course.

Agreed, however the AV drives are made for low noise, low power, better A/V performance and longer MTBF, no head parking, etc. They used to be much more expensive than regular data drives, but not so much anymore. Worth the extra few $$ these days, IMO.


Great point. I forgot about all the technical differences. Come to think of it, I have yet to hear the hard drive in my TiVo. I got so used to the noisy Scientific Atlanta cable co box whose hard drive you could hear from across the room at times.

c3 said:   Furthermore, if the drive is bad enough to cause recording/playback issues, I would rather replace the drive. Ignoring the errors is just hiding the problem, not solving it.

The difference is you won't need to replace the AV drive if that happens. The error handling in the AV drives means you won't notice data errors. On a regular data drive, every bit is considered critical, and a read error results in a playback failure/dropout as the drive continues attempting to recover the data. On the AV drives, no recovery is attempted, the data is immediately discarded and playback continues, typically unnoticed.

Toddler said:   c3 said:   Furthermore, if the drive is bad enough to cause recording/playback issues, I would rather replace the drive. Ignoring the errors is just hiding the problem, not solving it.

The difference is you won't need to replace the AV drive if that happens. The error handling in the AV drives means you won't notice data errors. On a regular data drive, every bit is considered critical, and a read error results in a playback failure/dropout as the drive continues attempting to recover the data. On the AV drives, no recovery is attempted, the data is immediately discarded and playback continues, typically unnoticed.


Data recovery is still attempted for streaming commands, up to a time limit set by the host software, and errors are still reported. I would like to emphasize that these are command level features, not drive level. If the host software does not use streaming commands to access data, the AV drives behave just like non-AV drives.

You can read about the streaming commands here:
http://www.t13.org/documents/UploadedDocuments/docs2009/d2015r1a...

So why does TiVo use the AV series drives? BTW I read somewhere that the Fios or Uverse DVR uses the AV drive.

ron111 said:   So why does TiVo use the AV series drives? BTW I read somewhere that the Fios or Uverse DVR uses the AV drive.

Many decisions are based on business reasons, not just technical. WD's manufacturing costs for GP and AV-GP should be very similar. Current prices on Amazon are not much different. If the cost difference to TiVo is negligible, why not?

It's very easy for TiVo to make its software incompatible with non-AV drives -- just use streaming commands.

Example of business reason: Series3 works with any drive for external storage. TiVo HD (and later?) has restriction which supports WD only, without hacking.

c3 said:   Toddler said:   c3 said:   Furthermore, if the drive is bad enough to cause recording/playback issues, I would rather replace the drive. Ignoring the errors is just hiding the problem, not solving it.

The difference is you won't need to replace the AV drive if that happens. The error handling in the AV drives means you won't notice data errors. On a regular data drive, every bit is considered critical, and a read error results in a playback failure/dropout as the drive continues attempting to recover the data. On the AV drives, no recovery is attempted, the data is immediately discarded and playback continues, typically unnoticed.


Data recovery is still attempted for streaming commands, up to a time limit set by the host software, and errors are still reported. I would like to emphasize that these are command level features, not drive level. If the host software does not use streaming commands to access data, the AV drives behave just like non-AV drives.

You can read about the streaming commands here:
http://www.t13.org/documents/UploadedDocuments/docs2009/d2015r1a...


There are software retry commands as well as firmware retry commands. You may wish to convince yourself otherwise, but there are differences between the drives.

Toddler said:   There are software retry commands as well as firmware retry commands. You may wish to convince yourself otherwise, but there are differences between the drives.

Of course there are differences between the drives -- the streaming commands. I have no idea why you're bringing up software retries. The regular and streaming retries are both implemented in the drive firmware/hardware.



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