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http://www.amazon.com/Ecosmart-ECO-27-Modulating-Technology/dp/B...

From the Manufacturer
This Smart Technology electric tankless water heaters is configured for climates where incoming water temperature can reach as low as 37 Degree. The ECO 27 is capable of heating nearly 3-Gallon per minute at this temperature. The ECO 27 is the largest electric tankless water heater available with Patented Self Modulating Technology. This model is well suited for homes in the Northern U.S. and Canada and in the southern U.S. that have large Roman-style or Jacuzzi tubs and that have generally more demanding water usage needs. Digital temperature control allows you to set your temperature in increments of 1 Degree. Prior to purchase and installation please verify this model is the rights size for your hot water needs and electrical requirements.

Product Description
Includes 27 kW 240V Electric Tankless Water Heater - ECO27, Owner's Manual

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Ecosmart ECO 27 (8.50kB)
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LVScott-

I am not telling you that tankless are bad, just shedding light on the issues.

With a tank type heater, the water... (more)

sgogo (Apr. 07, 2013 @ 10:56a) |

Power vented units have two other advantages... they are usually a little more efficient and they allow you to use outsi... (more)

sgogo (Apr. 07, 2013 @ 11:01a) |

Sounds like a fog machine.

handyguy (Apr. 07, 2013 @ 11:11a) |

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The cost of installation is much higher than the unit...

f2000sa said:   The cost of installation is much higher than the unit...

can someone who has experience with this add more comments? what the approximate cost for installation and does it work well (instant hot water)? thanks.

davidthefwer said:   f2000sa said:   The cost of installation is much higher than the unit...

can someone who has experience with this add more comments? what the approximate cost for installation and does it work well (instant hot water)? thanks.


Well, 8 gauge wire isn't exactly cheap, you need 3 runs of it and 6 spots in your breaker box. Note if you have a Square D Homeline breaker box, those six spots are the same space that would be taken up by 12 120V circuits! Also some main breaker panels (again Square D Homeline) can't supply enough current to a subpanel to run this thing so you can't hook it to any subpanel in your house at all.

Basically, you have to have 200A main service, a lot of empty spots in your main breaker box and you'd better hope your main breaker box is near where you want to put this thing so you don't need too much wire because the wire alone to run this is $3/foot of run (since you need 3 8AWG cables).

My electrician would have charged me at least $1000 to install this and that's if the wire was very short. He gets $250 a circuit and this needs 3. Oh yeah, and I couldn't install it anyway as I don't have 6 empty spots in my main breaker panel. To upgrade my main breaker panel would be over $1,200 I'm sure.

davidthefwer said:   f2000sa said:   The cost of installation is much higher than the unit...

can someone who has experience with this add more comments? what the approximate cost for installation and does it work well (instant hot water)? thanks.


Well my reply turned out to be a lot longer than I expected but here it is.

My gas tank water heater went out and dumped all the water on the floor in the process.

Although I have a home warranty that would have covered the cost to replace it, the repair company refused to replace the water heater because the flue (chimney) for it was asbestos (older home). They said I would have to have the asbestos flue removed before they would replace the water heater.

Well you can guess how much asbestos removal costs (not covered by home warranty), plus the days or weeks without hot water to get an appointment to have it done. Then there was the extra out of pocket costs for a new flue not covered by the home warranty. Also, in researching all this I found that often times the best thing to do with asbestos is to leave it alone.

So taking this all into consideration (and the years of never having enough hot water with the gas tank heater), I replaced the gas water heater with a $650 tankless electric water heater. I installed it myself, so I can't tell you what an electrician would charge, but for me the total was around $900.

I had to run two 240 Volt circuits of #6 wire and the wire cost me $150 for a 100 foot roll at Home Depot (2 wire pair plus a ground wire). I also had to install two 60 Amp circuit breakers at about $12 each. Additional costs were wire strippers/cutters, plastic conduit and odds and ends like drill bits and hole saws.

Although not difficult to install, the hardest part was working with the #6 Amp wire since it is so thick. I had to run it up the inside of a wall from the breaker box, through the attic, and then down another wall to the heater, and it doesn't bend easily or sharply.

WARNING: If you do not know a good amount about electricity, do not attempt this. 240 Volts will easily kill you and if you don't know what you are doing you could burn your house down.

There are a number of factors you have to figure out before knowing what to purchase. How cold the water is where you live and how much hot water you will use at a time.

The higher you need the heater to raise the temp of the cold water coming into the house, the more it will cost. If you live in a place where the water coming into the house is say 60 degrees, you can get by with a cheaper unit than if you live in a place where the water coming in is 40 degrees.

The amount of hot water you use at the same time also has to be factored in. If you are by yourself and only run one faucet or shower at a time, you can get buy with a cheaper unit than a family that needs to run three showers at the same time.

The basic formula is something like -

Model A for $350 will raise the water to a max of 38 degrees with a max water flow of 2 gallons per minute, while Model B for $500 will raise the temp a maximum of 54 degrees with a max of water flow of 4 gallons per minute.

It's been three years years since I installed mine so I don't remember specific numbers as far as how much water flows per minute out of a faucet, so my gallons per minute numbers may be way off, but I was just trying to show you an example of what has to be considered. As I recall there are charts for different rates of flow vs temp. As the number of gallons per minute increases, the amount the temperature can be raised decreases and vice versa.

You also have to know your service amperage coming into the house. Smaller and older houses have 100 Amp service meaning that is the maximum total amount of current that can be drawn through the break box. Some smaller units will work with that. Mine required 200 Amp service which my house has. I also had plenty of empty spots in my breaker box for the two breakers. You actually need room for four breakers because each of these two breakers is twice as wide as a standard 20 amp breaker.

Smaller units can also be installed just by a single shower or faucet and serve just that one shower or faucet rather than the entire house. This works well for example if you just need unlimited hot water at the shower.

With my old gas tank water heater, you could take a shower for about 7 minutes before the water got cold. If someone was taking a shower, forget about getting hot water in the kitchen to wash dishes. Two showers at the same time? Impossible.

The electric tankless water heater works extremely well. You have to remember that you don't get instant hot water at the faucets. Although the tankless water heater heats the water instantly when it comes into the heater, the hot water has to travel through the pipes of the house to the faucet and push out the cold water that has been sitting in the pipes before you get the hot water at the faucet.

Depending on how big your house is, this could take 20 seconds to a minute and a half. I was able to figure out how the pipes in my house run because the back bathroom gets hot water in about 30 seconds and the kitchen in about 50 seconds to a minute.

Some people might think this is bad but 30 seconds to wait is nothing. You could even turn the shower on and go get a towel or brush your teeth while it is warming up. I read all the disadvantages, like this one, before getting a tankless heater, but let me tell you, they mean absolutely nothing when compared to having unlimited hot water for the hwole house. Have a sore back or muscle and want to run hot shower water or a shower massage on it for 30 minutes? No problem. Two people want to take shows at the same time and run the dishwasher. No problem.

I could probably have gotten by with a cheaper less powerful tankless water heater but, after many years of never having enough hot water, I calculated for the absolutely worst case scenerio such as lowest temp of incoming water in winter and max gallon flow. I didn't want to have to think I had unlimited hot water only under certain circumstances. I just wanted unlimited hot water without having to think about it.

Another advantage of these tankless heaters is that they only heat the water when needed. A tank water heater has to keep reheating the water in the tank so it is always available hot when you need it. If you go on vacation for a week, there is a waste of energy and money with a tank water heater because it constantly reheats the water, even though it is never needed for that week you are gone.

The electric tankless water heater only turns on when you need hot water. It requires a lot of energy to heat the water so fast, which is why they require lots of amperage and thick power wires. For example, when my turns on it uses about 25 kilowatts (25,000 watts) of power or about 100 Amps at 240 volts (amps x volts = watts). A typical room in a house is protected by a 15 or 20 amp breaker and a central air conditioner uses about 60 amps. This is a lot of power and if you have an older power meter with the spinning dial, you will see that dial spin like crazy when the water heater turns on, but again, it is only doing so when you are actually needing and using hot water.

As far as cost savings, my gas bill dropped $20 dollars a month and my electric bill went up slightly. I don't recall exactly how high the electric went up but it wasn't $20 more so there is a savings. However, for the benefit of having unlimited hot water and not having another flood of water like I did when the tank heater went out, I would gladly pay $20 more per month. Heck, if you break even you are still ahead.

If you have any questions ask and I will try to answer them. I'll try to get some pictures up on a web site of the final installation and post back here with the link.

Lvscott & HappyScrappy: Thanks for the very good explanations. You guys are dream killers, but at least now we know.

A somewhat related question important to FWers: where can we buy a water heater that will only last for a seven minute shower? Parents of teenagers could cut their utility bills dramatically with such a feature.

WalterGuy said:   Lvscott & HappyScrappy: Thanks for the very good explanations.


A-men!

WalterGuy said:   
You guys are dream killers, but at least now we know.


I got the opposite out of it...but that's because my current hot water heater is located less than 4 feet from my main breaker box (installed in 2007/pretty sure it's 200A), I have oodles of free breakers & an electrical background. I was building heath kits when I was 12, I took 4 years of electronics classes in high school, I started my college career in EE (first 3 years). I helped my father/grandfather figure out how to wire a 3 way light switch when I was 15 Anyway, yeah, I love me my electric.

Like others have said...if you have no electrical experience STAY AWAY.

Anyway, I was reading this thinking there was no way I could do this. Now I have exactly the opposite feeling. My current water heater is only 7 years old, but it's slowly going bad. It might be under warranty, I'll have to check. However, it currently doesn't have enough hot water to shower two adults. It starts out strong but by the time the second shower is over the cold water is completely off to the shower head.

I also got in on the TRU $45 Amazon gift cards so I get an effective 10% off this price if I bite...and I just may.

Thanks OP!

Lvscott said:   With my old gas tank water heater, you could take a shower for about 7 minutes before the water got cold.

You're joking??? Wow, I've lived all over the US, moved a lot, and I've never lived in a place that required me to adjust the hot/cold in the shower even during a 12 minute shower. Sure, your body gets used to the temp over time and you need to adjust it a tiny bit, but that's it. I've never had to turn the cold water down less than half way.

kdn102 said:   Lvscott said:   With my old gas tank water heater, you could take a shower for about 7 minutes before the water got cold.

You're joking??? Wow, I've lived all over the US, moved a lot, and I've never lived in a place that required me to adjust the hot/cold in the shower even during a 12 minute shower. Sure, your body gets used to the temp over time and you need to adjust it a tiny bit, but that's it. I've never had to turn the cold water down less than half way.


There is a high probability that his old HW heater was never maintained (Blown down) and that sediment was built up in the base of the tank. It limits the volume of the tank, as well as the recovery time of the heater.

Just a few notes on these:

1- If you have gas coming into your house, I would not suggest changing to an electric HW heater, even an instantaneous one. Anual energyu expenses will usually go up, except in very low hot water usage scenarios.

2- If you have hard water, research a little on these. The descaling process is difficult. Tank type HW heaters are more forgiving of not maintaining them (which most people don't).

3- These generally need specialized service people to fix them. Standard HW heaters do not.

4- Run the calculations before you buy this... most of the time incoming water in northern areas is 45-50F. To make a warm shower at 105-110F, you need a 60-65F boost for the entire volume of the shower... ie: if you need 5gpm for a shower, you need a unit that will boost 60F for 5 gpm. Most people mix HW and CW, so then you need a much higher HW temp to get a blend to be 110F because you are mixing with cold water at 45F.

Good Luck!
SteveG

Lvscott said:   ...

... You have to remember that you don't get instant hot water at the faucets. Although the tankless water heater heats the water instantly when it comes into the heater, the hot water has to travel through the pipes of the house to the faucet and push out the cold water that has been sitting in the pipes before you get the hot water at the faucet.

Depending on how big your house is, this could take 20 seconds to a minute and a half. I was able to figure out how the pipes in my house run because the back bathroom gets hot water in about 30 seconds and the kitchen in about 50 seconds to a minute.

Some people might think this is bad but 30 seconds to wait is nothing. You could even turn the shower on and go get a towel or brush your teeth while it is warming up....


This issue really applies to a tank style heater also... anytime the HW is not being circulated, it cools in the pipes.

Tank style heaters can be fitted with a recirculating pump, which eliminates this issue, but costs a lot in energy.

SteveG

WalterGuy said:   Lvscott & HappyScrappy: Thanks for the very good explanations. You guys are dream killers, but at least now we know.

A somewhat related question important to FWers: where can we buy a water heater that will only last for a seven minute shower? Parents of teenagers could cut their utility bills dramatically with such a feature.


This is what I used when I visited Asia LMAO

How can i get this?

Ultimate "Instant" tankless water heater for a shower.

HAHAHA! I've stayed in places in Guatemala with hot water setups like the one above. Sure beats the heck out of a cold shower.

Check to see if your power service has a "demand charge", if you do this will end up costing a lot in extra demand charges. Demand charge is a charge by the power company for the highest peak amount of electricity you use. 27kw is likely more than 5x an average home's peak.

I pulled the trigger. Going to try and install myself.

I've got two point of use heaters, and I would probably never consider a whole house electric WH.

Here's the math: http://eemax.com/assets/files/sizingguide.pdf

It takes so much energy to run a tankless electric WH you're going to want a lot of power coming into the house. I have 400A (2x200), and it was a bit of a struggle to decide where to put the two 50A breakers for mine. That's because I have electric heat pump (80A/240 resistance coils plus the 30A for the fancoil unit), a 50A oven, lots of lighting, etc. Just because you have space in your box doesn't necessarily mean you have enough service to run everything.

Anyway, 27kW isn't a lot in the winter when your incoming water is 50F (or colder). A 3gpm shower (aka: a good one, without those flow restricting heads) at 110F (unless you want to keep the hot water at 100%) is already at 26kW. So if anyone else decides they want hot water...you're getting a cold shower (well, colder - a 1gpm faucet for hand washing will cut your shower temp to 90F...which WILL feel cold).

Yes, working with 8ga and 6ga just sucks rocks, but it's doable. Just remember to cut long - it's exceptionally hard (and expensive) to splice large gauge wire.

Mine, btw are two EEmax 10kW boosters in the kitchen. One takes the incoming HW line and boosts it to (up to) 140F. Yeah - scalding - but also ideal for dishes. 6 year olds can't reach that faucet. That's actually in-line with a sanitary model which will bring the temp up to about 190-195F at 1GPM on a second, dedicated HW faucet. Yeah, you read correctly. I can fill a pot with near boiling water in a couple of minutes - far faster than any microwave, induction stovetop, or gas range can. It works well for coffee (aeropress) and tea, too. It does take 5-10 seconds to heat up to full (I still have to heat the copper under the sink), but overall it's awesome.

From the Manufacturer
...This model is well suited for homes in the Northern U.S. and Canada and in the southern U.S. that have large Roman-style or Jacuzzi tubs and that have generally more demanding water usage needs.

I just re-read that. If you have a real tub-filler spigot, you can easily get 7-8GPM out of it. Northern US with Low-40s incoming water temp? Enjoy your 65F bath!

sgogo said:   Just a few notes on these:

1- If you have gas coming into your house, I would not suggest changing to an electric HW heater, even an instantaneous one. Anual energyu expenses will usually go up, except in very low hot water usage scenarios.


What do you base this on? Where I live some people have gas tank water heaters and some electric. My gas bill went down $20 a month when I installed the tankless but the electric bill did not go $20 higher. It is a lot more energy efficient to heat water only when you need it than to constantly waste power reheating a tank of water that sits there waiting to be used.

sgogo said:   
2- If you have hard water, research a little on these. The descaling process is difficult. Tank type HW heaters are more forgiving of not maintaining them (which most people don't).


I have never heard of anyone descaling either of these. I don't even think there is a process for a tankless other than cleaning the inlet filter. As far as forgiving, my old tank heater flooded the room it was in. That won't ever happen to me again.

sgogo said:   
3- These generally need specialized service people to fix them. Standard HW heaters do not.


That is if they break. There isn't much to fix other than heating elements. Worse case scenerio you ship it to the manufacturer and have them repair it, or buy a new one. A standard tank heater can flood the room it is in, still requires a professional who can rip you off to fix it, and requires more than one person to haul it away when it needs to be replaced.

sgogo said:   
4- Run the calculations before you buy this... most of the time incoming water in northern areas is 45-50F. To make a warm shower at 105-110F, you need a 60-65F boost for the entire volume of the shower... ie: if you need 5gpm for a shower, you need a unit that will boost 60F for 5 gpm. Most people mix HW and CW, so then you need a much higher HW temp to get a blend to be 110F because you are mixing with cold water at 45F.


This doesn't even make sense. The only reason people mix hot and cold water is to lower the temp of the hot water. If you can set your tankless to a temperature that is good for you in the shower, there is nothing stopping you from running entirely hot water in the shower. In fact it will be easier. You just turn the valve to max hot and you know you are good. In my house the wife likes very hot water for dishes at the sink. I was fine with the initial temperature setting of the tankless for showers, but she wanted it higher for the kitchen sink. So I set it higher and had to mix cold with hot water at the shower to bring it down to the temperature I like.

You actually sound more like a guy who sells the old outdated tank heaters and are trying to get people to not go tankless.

This will cut your hot water consumption.
I bought one last year, other than having to turn up the temp a little more than with a high flow head it's great.
Actually puts out about 1 GPM on my water pressure.

Niagara 1.25GPM shower head.

Overzeetop said:   From the Manufacturer
...This model is well suited for homes in the Northern U.S. and Canada and in the southern U.S. that have large Roman-style or Jacuzzi tubs and that have generally more demanding water usage needs.


I just re-read that. If you have a real tub-filler spigot, you can easily get 7-8GPM out of it. Northern US with Low-40s incoming water temp? Enjoy your 65F bath!

There is nothing stopping you from filling the bath at a slower rate like 3 or 5 GPM.

Funny how the only people I see speaking negatively of tankless heaters are the ones who don't have them. Sure if you live in a place where the incoming water is super cold and the GPM requirement is high, it won't work for you or you may have to go for a more powerful and expensive unit.

In a worse case scenerio, you may only be able to take one shower at a time. However, with a tankless electric, you can immediately follow one shower with another all day long. A tank heater will ALWAYS eventually run out of hot water. Then how long are you going to sit and wait between showers for the water in the tank to heat up?

.

kdn102 said:   

I got the opposite out of it...but that's because my current hot water heater is located less than 4 feet from my main breaker box (installed in 2007/pretty sure it's 200A), I have oodles of free breakers & an electrical background.


Sweet set up for you. Mine water heater was about 20 feet from the breaker but the total run going up and down walls was 2 runs of about 35 feet each

You should have one main shut off breaker coming off the power meter to your house. Mine is in a separate box from the breaker box. Check that to see what amperage it is. If it is 200A you are good to go, but unless your house is very small, a 2007 one should have at least 200A service.

By the way, mine is a Stiebel Eltron brand which I had to get online. Home Depot and Lowes do not carry them They get great reviews and I have been totally happy with mine. I can't vouch for other brands but I have heard complaints about them.

The house I bought had 2 installed...one for each side of the house. In theory it sounds great, but does not work well in real life use. We had both units in our house disabled and had an 80 gallon gas water heater installed. No more cold showers because the tankless decided it needs a break heating up water! Plus, these electric tankless units suck a TON of electricity. In my area, gas is alot cheaper than electric. I don't know how the last owner had it done, but the electrician somehow was able to pull some HUGE guage wires into the house and across two sections of my basement to install it. Each unit had to have it's own circuit breaker box next to where the unit is installed. I don't know if the gas tankless units work better, but the electric ones we had was a total piece of junk. I wouldn't install one if it was FREE. I love my hotwater too much.



davidthefwer said:   f2000sa said:   The cost of installation is much higher than the unit...

can someone who has experience with this add more comments? what the approximate cost for installation and does it work well (instant hot water)? thanks.

sgogo said:   Lvscott said:   ...

... You have to remember that you don't get instant hot water at the faucets. Although the tankless water heater heats the water instantly when it comes into the heater, the hot water has to travel through the pipes of the house to the faucet and push out the cold water that has been sitting in the pipes before you get the hot water at the faucet.

Depending on how big your house is, this could take 20 seconds to a minute and a half. I was able to figure out how the pipes in my house run because the back bathroom gets hot water in about 30 seconds and the kitchen in about 50 seconds to a minute.

Some people might think this is bad but 30 seconds to wait is nothing. You could even turn the shower on and go get a towel or brush your teeth while it is warming up....


This issue really applies to a tank style heater also... anytime the HW is not being circulated, it cools in the pipes.

Tank style heaters can be fitted with a recirculating pump, which eliminates this issue, but costs a lot in energy.

SteveG
If the tank is lower than the lowest fixture (as in the basement) you can install a gravity return pipe that uses no real energy.

sgogo said:   Just a few notes on these:

1- If you have gas coming into your house, I would not suggest changing to an electric HW heater, even an instantaneous one. Anual energyu expenses will usually go up, except in very low hot water usage scenarios.

2- If you have hard water, research a little on these. The descaling process is difficult. Tank type HW heaters are more forgiving of not maintaining them (which most people don't).

3- These generally need specialized service people to fix them. Standard HW heaters do not.

4- Run the calculations before you buy this... most of the time incoming water in northern areas is 45-50F. To make a warm shower at 105-110F, you need a 60-65F boost for the entire volume of the shower... ie: if you need 5gpm for a shower, you need a unit that will boost 60F for 5 gpm. Most people mix HW and CW, so then you need a much higher HW temp to get a blend to be 110F because you are mixing with cold water at 45F.

Good Luck!
SteveG
Where are you going to get a 5 gpm shower head?. For most people with a single shower head it will be less than 2 gpm. I think gov. regulation is 1.5 gpm.

125 foot of wire at Home Depot is $101.40 Text Enough to run 40 foot. You could also run larger wire from a single breaker to a sub panel next to the heater.

This heater is also the same price at Home Depot. Text

Installation requirements

How to size your tankless water heater

I have the Eco 27 and it works great. The incoming well water is 58F and I can easily run 2 showers and have 115F water coming out of both. The only issue I have is the garden tub puts out 5 gal minute and it can not heat that fast. The solution was to just fill the garden tub slower. This is fine but occasionally my wife wants to fill the garden tub while someone else is showering. One Eco27 can not handle that.

With prices falling I have now ordered a Eco 18 to work with my Eco 27. That will allow heating of 5+ gal a minute and thus give haot water without worries of anything else coming on. I have (2) 200 amp panel's so power is not an issue.

This is the best solution for my home. With 2 teen daughters, the wife, and myself all wanting to take showers or baths within 1 -2 hours the 80 gal electric water heater would not keep up.

jaimelobo said:   Ultimate "Instant" tankless water heater for a shower.OMG --- that looks dangerous as can be!

Interesting (older) article about tankless water heaters:

link

I thought about installing a timer device on our electric hot-water heater which would cut power for most of the time no-one is home but the savings would be minimal due to the time it would take to bring the entire tank up to temp again.

Lvscott said:   sgogo said:   Just a few notes on these:

1- If you have gas coming into your house, I would not suggest changing to an electric HW heater, even an instantaneous one. Anual energyu expenses will usually go up, except in very low hot water usage scenarios.


What do you base this on? Where I live some people have gas tank water heaters and some electric. My gas bill went down $20 a month when I installed the tankless but the electric bill did not go $20 higher. It is a lot more energy efficient to heat water only when you need it than to constantly waste power reheating a tank of water that sits there waiting to be used.

sgogo said:   
2- If you have hard water, research a little on these. The descaling process is difficult. Tank type HW heaters are more forgiving of not maintaining them (which most people don't).


I have never heard of anyone descaling either of these. I don't even think there is a process for a tankless other than cleaning the inlet filter. As far as forgiving, my old tank heater flooded the room it was in. That won't ever happen to me again.

sgogo said:   
3- These generally need specialized service people to fix them. Standard HW heaters do not.


That is if they break. There isn't much to fix other than heating elements. Worse case scenerio you ship it to the manufacturer and have them repair it, or buy a new one. A standard tank heater can flood the room it is in, still requires a professional who can rip you off to fix it, and requires more than one person to haul it away when it needs to be replaced.

sgogo said:   
4- Run the calculations before you buy this... most of the time incoming water in northern areas is 45-50F. To make a warm shower at 105-110F, you need a 60-65F boost for the entire volume of the shower... ie: if you need 5gpm for a shower, you need a unit that will boost 60F for 5 gpm. Most people mix HW and CW, so then you need a much higher HW temp to get a blend to be 110F because you are mixing with cold water at 45F.


This doesn't even make sense. The only reason people mix hot and cold water is to lower the temp of the hot water. If you can set your tankless to a temperature that is good for you in the shower, there is nothing stopping you from running entirely hot water in the shower. In fact it will be easier. You just turn the valve to max hot and you know you are good. In my house the wife likes very hot water for dishes at the sink. I was fine with the initial temperature setting of the tankless for showers, but she wanted it higher for the kitchen sink. So I set it higher and had to mix cold with hot water at the shower to bring it down to the temperature I like.

You actually sound more like a guy who sells the old outdated tank heaters and are trying to get people to not go tankless.


I do not sell tank type water heaters. I do, however, have a huge amount of experience in this industry.

Sorry you bought this without researching, but there is a descaling process required if you have hard water. Try googling it before you write about it like an expert and confuse people.

Also, changing from Natural gas to electric is usually a bad idea. Electricity is significantly more per unit of heat generated. The losses of heat in the piping system are exactly the same between instantaneous and tankless heaters, so the only place energy is really saved on these is keeping the water warm while in the tank.

If your tank is very insulated, this loss is reduced significantly. If you use an "average" amount of water, gas is better. Obviously, if you have a 75 gallon tank, but have only one person drawing off it, tankless will save. That, however, is usually not the case.

Also, some rates structures bill a "demand charge" which ratchets up your entire rate when you go over a certain demand. These electric tankless heaters will significantly impact a user in this area.

As far as repairs, these are more prone to repairs. That is from experience. Google to see who can service it. A tank type can be changed out in 4 hours (in my area... NYC metro). Most repairs on tankl type device are repairable without removing the tank, and parts are available at Home Depot.

If tankless leaks, its just like a tank type, since the water line coming into the device is live.

As far as water temperature, what I wrote is accurate. Run the calcs with any GPM you like. Also note I have seen water temps coming in to the house in the northeast down to 36F.

Maybe you are the tankless rep?

SteveG

jimates said:   sgogo said:   Lvscott said:   ...

... You have to remember that you don't get instant hot water at the faucets. Although the tankless water heater heats the water instantly when it comes into the heater, the hot water has to travel through the pipes of the house to the faucet and push out the cold water that has been sitting in the pipes before you get the hot water at the faucet.

Depending on how big your house is, this could take 20 seconds to a minute and a half. I was able to figure out how the pipes in my house run because the back bathroom gets hot water in about 30 seconds and the kitchen in about 50 seconds to a minute.

Some people might think this is bad but 30 seconds to wait is nothing. You could even turn the shower on and go get a towel or brush your teeth while it is warming up....


This issue really applies to a tank style heater also... anytime the HW is not being circulated, it cools in the pipes.

Tank style heaters can be fitted with a recirculating pump, which eliminates this issue, but costs a lot in energy.

SteveG
If the tank is lower than the lowest fixture (as in the basement) you can install a gravity return pipe that uses no real energy.


The energy is not in the pumping costs, it is in the hot water sitting in the piping system, losing heat.

jimates said:   sgogo said:   Just a few notes on these:

1- If you have gas coming into your house, I would not suggest changing to an electric HW heater, even an instantaneous one. Anual energyu expenses will usually go up, except in very low hot water usage scenarios.

2- If you have hard water, research a little on these. The descaling process is difficult. Tank type HW heaters are more forgiving of not maintaining them (which most people don't).

3- These generally need specialized service people to fix them. Standard HW heaters do not.

4- Run the calculations before you buy this... most of the time incoming water in northern areas is 45-50F. To make a warm shower at 105-110F, you need a 60-65F boost for the entire volume of the shower... ie: if you need 5gpm for a shower, you need a unit that will boost 60F for 5 gpm. Most people mix HW and CW, so then you need a much higher HW temp to get a blend to be 110F because you are mixing with cold water at 45F.

Good Luck!
SteveG
Where are you going to get a 5 gpm shower head?. For most people with a single shower head it will be less than 2 gpm. I think gov. regulation is 1.5 gpm.


5gpm is example flow for two appliances... typical, minimum design criteria.Otherwise, running a sink in another room will affect shower.

Govt reg is 2.5gpm per shower and many people remove the restrictor inside.

Use the calculations and figure out how many gpm you will need.

PennState95 said:   The house I bought had 2 installed...one for each side of the house. In theory it sounds great, but does not work well in real life use. We had both units in our house disabled and had an 80 gallon gas water heater installed. No more cold showers because the tankless decided it needs a break heating up water! Plus, these electric tankless units suck a TON of electricity. In my area, gas is alot cheaper than electric. I don't know how the last owner had it done, but the electrician somehow was able to pull some HUGE guage wires into the house and across two sections of my basement to install it. Each unit had to have it's own circuit breaker box next to where the unit is installed. I don't know if the gas tankless units work better, but the electric ones we had was a total piece of junk. I wouldn't install one if it was FREE. I love my hotwater too much.



You are making a blanket statement that they don't work well in real life based ONLY on your one experience, which is absurd and totally false. Maybe your house had the cheap ones because the good ones don't take breaks. Only tank water heaters do as it takes time to heat up a tank full of water.

The tankless water heaters do not take a ton of energy. They use a lot of energy briefly and only when hot water is needed but is 100% efficient. A tank heater is constantly using and wasting energy to keep reheating the same tank of water waiting for it to be used.

Plus 15-20% of the KW energy in a gas tank heater goes up the venting flue as wasted heat.

17KW for 1 minute is equal to 283 watt hours. When I go on vacation for a week, go to work, or am sleeping, my tankless uses 0 watts, while a tank heater is constantly using power to reheat water that is never being needed.

Just like anything else, when you buy cheap junk, that is what you get. The previous owners may have done nothing wrong other than by units that weren't powerful enough.

sgogo said:   
5gpm is example flow for two appliances... typical, minimum design criteria.Otherwise, running a sink in another room will affect shower.

Govt reg is 2.5gpm per shower and many people remove the restrictor inside.

Use the calculations and figure out how many gpm you will need.


Another thing people don't realize is that if you run 5GPM with a 50 gallon tank heater, you are out of hot water in 10 minutes. With a tankless, depending on how cold it is where you live and the size unit you buy, you may only be able to run one shower at a time, but you can run it for 24 hours if you want to and still have hot water.

Three people in a family taking one shower after another with a tank water heater will run out of hot water by the third shower. This won't happen with a tankless.

By the way, my tank water heater lasted 12 years. A new replacement is expected to last about 8 years. The life expectancy of my tankless is 20 to 30 years.

jjjj

I have had a gas tankless for about five years now. It is a noritz,made in Japan,cost me (I am a builder) about $1200,00 with the vented exhaust and re-piping for the gas.Mine will run all three of our showers without a problem. I read all the excellent posts about these, just wanted to let everyone know that if you choose a gas model,of any size, you will need a larger diameter black pipe. I had to install about 75' of 1-1/4' pipe for the BTU of mine.The only drawback to these if you dont have a storage tank with a circulator(which kind of defeats their purpose as long as it isnt for a dairy farm) is that you will be waiting longer for the water to get hot at the tap,and with low flow fixtures it will be even longer,as the heaters (gas or electric)input the heating capabilities based on flow demand.
I personally am waiting for mine to break so I can replace it with a power vent conventional gas heater,as I do not believe there are any net savings because of the increased water consumption of waiting. Just my .02

jockum said:   I have had a gas tankless for about five years now. It is a noritz,made in Japan,cost me (I am a builder) about $1200,00 with the vented exhaust and re-piping for the gas.Mine will run all three of our showers without a problem. I read all the excellent posts about these, just wanted to let everyone know that if you choose a gas model,of any size, you will need a larger diameter black pipe. I had to install about 75' of 1-1/4' pipe for the BTU of mine.The only drawback to these if you dont have a storage tank with a circulator(which kind of defeats their purpose as long as it isnt for a dairy farm) is that you will be waiting longer for the water to get hot at the tap,and with low flow fixtures it will be even longer,as the heaters (gas or electric)input the heating capabilities based on flow demand.
I personally am waiting for mine to break so I can replace it with a power vent conventional gas heater,as I do not believe there are any net savings because of the increased water consumption of waiting. Just my .02


What does the power vent offer you? I thought the power vent was just used for unusual install applications(e.g. severe exhaust bends or long exhaust vents). Just wondering?

Skipping 4 Messages...
taxmantoo said:   This will cut your hot water consumption.
I bought one last year, other than having to turn up the temp a little more than with a high flow head it's great.
Actually puts out about 1 GPM on my water pressure.

Niagara 1.25GPM shower head.


Sounds like a fog machine.



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