Xnarg said: People can reach 100+ wpm w/ QWERTY, do you need to be faster?100+ accurate wpm is fantastic, and it's still awfully slow. I don't see why dvorak or something faster can't be taught to a new generation at least.
You just change the settings on control panel. No need for a new keyboard.
Xnarg
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Oct. 5, 2009 @ 3:12p
DevilMonkey said: Xnarg said: People can reach 100+ wpm w/ QWERTY, do you need to be faster?100+ accurate wpm is fantastic, and it's still awfully slow. I don't see why dvorak or something faster can't be taught to a new generation at least.It could be, just like Esperanto could be taught as the ultimate language.
Xnarg said: DevilMonkey said: Xnarg said: People can reach 100+ wpm w/ QWERTY, do you need to be faster?100+ accurate wpm is fantastic, and it's still awfully slow. I don't see why dvorak or something faster can't be taught to a new generation at least.It could be, just like Esperanto could be taught as the ultimate language.
A lot of great ideas never reach critical mass.Technology has a way of catching on that makes social change look like molasses. Sometimes. Think about the whole concept of a keyboard, and compare it to a video game controller. How fast could you enter information if you held a device in your hand that had a button for each finger, and you could press several buttons at the same time? Maybe the right index finger is the letter e, and with the pinky it becomes E. Index and middle finger is t, and with the pinky it's T. And so on. Something like this has been talked about before, but I don't have any links.
buffalobreath said: Xnarg said: DevilMonkey said: Xnarg said: People can reach 100+ wpm w/ QWERTY, do you need to be faster?100+ accurate wpm is fantastic, and it's still awfully slow. I don't see why dvorak or something faster can't be taught to a new generation at least.It could be, just like Esperanto could be taught as the ultimate language.
A lot of great ideas never reach critical mass.Technology has a way of catching on that makes social change look like molasses. Sometimes. Think about the whole concept of a keyboard, and compare it to a video game controller. How fast could you enter information if you held a device in your hand that had a button for each finger, and you could press several buttons at the same time? Maybe the right index finger is the letter e, and with the pinky it becomes E. Index and middle finger is t, and with the pinky it's T. And so on. Something like this has been talked about before, but I don't have any links. you first.
It took me a day to learn how to touch type with Dvorak, and while I didn't break 30-40 WPM with it, I thought I'd eventually be able to do better with it than with Qwerty because I was able to keep my fingers on the home keys a higher percentage of the time. I don't know why I've kept using Qwerty.
Well, there are devices such as what court reporters use that allow one to type faster--and there is always voice recognition software. I enjoy typing and don't mind learning a new keyboard.
Xnarg said: It could be, just like Esperanto could be taught as the ultimate language.
A lot of great ideas never reach critical mass.I think re-inventing speech requires a bit more effort than changing the input device on your computer.
Reversing the things we're comparing may help:
"I think it might not be a bad idea to teach children a completely new way to express ideas and communicate with other humans." "LOL why don't you just move the T key to where the K is?"
I'm not even saying Dvorak keyboard is the answer, I'm just saying there's probably a better one than a layout designed to limit the speed of your typing.
DevilMonkey said: I'm not even saying Dvorak keyboard is the answer, I'm just saying there's probably a better one than a layout designed to limit the speed of your typing.Word.
Xnarg
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Oct. 6, 2009 @ 7:08p
Most people type far below the theoretical maximum speed. Their keyboard performance is not impeded by keyboard design, but by their lack of desire, need, and practice.
Xnarg
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Oct. 6, 2009 @ 7:11p
DevilMonkey said: Xnarg said: It could be, just like Esperanto could be taught as the ultimate language.
A lot of great ideas never reach critical mass.I think re-inventing speech requires a bit more effort than changing the input device on your computer...On the flip-side, the benefits from converting to a world-wide common language are far more significant than keyboard design, too.
My point is that great ideas often do not gain traction due to inertia when the existing solution is reasonably workable and is widely dispersed.
DevilMonkey said: Xnarg said: People can reach 100+ wpm w/ QWERTY, do you need to be faster?100+ accurate wpm is fantastic, and it's still awfully slow. I don't see why dvorak or something faster can't be taught to a new generation at least.
The metric system is better than the English system in pretty much every conceivable way. Efforts to get the new generation to adopt to the metric system has utterly failed. Change does not come easy.
The fact is we deal with a lot of "inconvenience" in life just because one system got adopted by the masses first over a better more efficient system. It is part of life and why companies try so hard to be the "first" in new technologies.
Xnarg said: My point is that great ideas often do not gain traction due to inertia when the existing solution is reasonably workable and is widely dispersed.You describing MS Windows or DVORAK?
Xnarg
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Oct. 7, 2009 @ 3:59p
Casper42 said: Xnarg said: My point is that great ideas often do not gain traction due to inertia when the existing solution is reasonably workable and is widely dispersed.You describing MS Windows or DVORAK? Windows is an excellent example of how difficult it is to displace a dominant technology or product even if a superior solution is available.
After a lot of practice, I am up to 35-40 wpm when taking the tests. Still nowhere near as fluid, but at least it is not painful to type now. Well, still a little painful. One thing I do note is that sometimes when the keys flow, it feels really really fast like I don't even know what i am typing but it all comes out error-free. If I can get that zen going for a sustained time I might type faster than I did previously. Unfortunately, I do not believe I can type on both layouts as it is too confusing to switch.
In my quest to learn the new keyboard, I have now manage to get myself up to 45 wpm. That is about half speed for me. I am assuming that with more practice I will get back up to 70 or 80 wpm. At least I hope so, because I feel like I have hurt my ability to touch type on a QWERTY keyboard without having to drill.
jolma
Senior Member
posted: Oct. 19, 2009 @ 11:42a
I suspect that with enough practice you can reach a faster speed with Dvorak than Qwerty - but, there are prices to pay. Your qwerty typing will suffer, so you will type faster at home or on a personalized work computer, but if you have to type on someone else's computer or a smartphone you will be slower. Also, Dvorak doesn't have ctrl-z, x, c, and v in a convenient place near the ctrl key (undo, cut, copy, paste). So your editing of text, cutting and pasting will be slower.
timothy86
Senior Member - 3K
posted: Oct. 19, 2009 @ 12:03p
JorgeBurrito said: DevilMonkey said: Xnarg said: People can reach 100+ wpm w/ QWERTY, do you need to be faster?100+ accurate wpm is fantastic, and it's still awfully slow. I don't see why dvorak or something faster can't be taught to a new generation at least.
The metric system is better than the English system in pretty much every conceivable way. Efforts to get the new generation to adopt to the metric system has utterly failed. Change does not come easy.
The fact is we deal with a lot of "inconvenience" in life just because one system got adopted by the masses first over a better more efficient system. It is part of life and why companies try so hard to be the "first" in new technologies.
Agreed, I guess that is why no mp3 player can even touch the ipod.
jolma said: I suspect that with enough practice you can reach a faster speed with Dvorak than Qwerty - but, there are prices to pay. Your qwerty typing will suffer, so you will type faster at home or on a personalized work computer, but if you have to type on someone else's computer or a smartphone you will be slower. Also, Dvorak doesn't have ctrl-z, x, c, and v in a convenient place near the ctrl key (undo, cut, copy, paste). So your editing of text, cutting and pasting will be slower.Not just that, but he huge loss in productivity until you get up to speed. Fortunately I enjoy typing so I am making a go of it. It is easy enough to change the system settings when using someone else's computer, so my real worry is that I never get as fast or fast enough, but if that happens I am sure I can get back up to qwerty speed.
Found some great online typing lessons.
Xnarg
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Oct. 19, 2009 @ 2:59p
DavidScubadiver said: ...It is easy enough to change the system settings when using someone else's computer...I'd never consider making changes like that to someone else's computer. If something (even unrelated) goes wrong, you know who will be blamed.
Or, if it were in a library or other place with shared computers, it may not be feasible.
Xnarg said: DavidScubadiver said: ...It is easy enough to change the system settings when using someone else's computer...I'd never consider making changes like that to someone else's computer. If something (even unrelated) goes wrong, you know who will be blamed.
Or, if it were in a library or other place with shared computers, it may not be feasible.True, cant make the change if you dont have access to control panel. But truth is, I never use someone else's computer unless it is family. And I think when I am fluent I will be able to go back as necessary. I am hovering at 40 wpm sustained. Hoping to get it up to 50 by the end of the week!
mcwhitman
Broke Member
posted: Oct. 19, 2009 @ 4:46p
Xnarg said: Windows is an excellent example of how difficult it is to displace a dominant technology or product even if a superior solution is available.
MSDOS displaced the much more dominant and superior cp/m by being the cheaper alternative for ibm's new pc.
I would say that overtaking market dominance is more related to - location*, timing and luck.
*- ie microsoft piggybacked as the cheap OS on the next big thing.
It would be kind of cool to switch to a one handed keyboard. I can qwerty with one hand about 40wpm. Over 100 wpm with both hands.
Xnarg
Senior Member - 5K
posted: Oct. 19, 2009 @ 5:54p
mcwhitman said: Xnarg said: Windows is an excellent example of how difficult it is to displace a dominant technology or product even if a superior solution is available.
MSDOS displaced the much more dominant and superior cp/m by being the cheaper alternative for ibm's new pc."IBM had originally intended to use Digital Research's (actually, they had the somewhat pretentious name of "Intergalactic Digital Research" at the time) CP/M was then the industry standard operating system - you either ran a BASIC with disk functions, someone's proprietary OS, or CP/M.
Folklore reports various stories about the rift between DRI and IBM. The most popular story claims Gary Kildall or DRI snubbed the IBM executives by flying his airplane when the meeting was scheduled. Another story claims Kildall didn't want to release the source for CP/M to IBM, which would be odd, since they released it to other companies. One noted industry pundit claims Kildall's wife killed the deal by insisting on various contract changes. I suspect the deal was killed by the good ol' boy network. It's hard to imagine a couple of junior IBM executives giving up when ordered to a task as simple as licensing an operating system from a vendor. It wouldn't look good on their performance reports. It would be interesting to hear IBM's story...
IBM then talked to a small company called Microsoft. Microsoft was a language vendor. Bill Gates and Paul Allen had written Microsoft BASIC and were selling it on punched tape or disk to early PC hobbyists, which was probably a step up from the company's original name and goal - they were Traf-O-Data before, making car counters for highway departments.
Microsoft had no 8086 real operating system to sell, but quickly made a deal to license Seattle Computer Products' 86-DOS operating system, which had been written by Tim Paterson earlier in 1980 for use on that company's line of 8086, S100 bus micros. 86-DOS (also called QDOS, for Quick and Dirty Operating System) had been written as more or less a 16-bit version of CP/M, since Digital Research was showing no hurry in introducing CP/M-86. Paterson's DOS 1.0 was approximately 4000 lines of assembler source.
This code was quickly polished up and presented to IBM for evaluation. IBM found itself left with Microsoft's offering of "Microsoft Disk Operating System 1.0". An agreement was reached between the two, and IBM agreed to accept 86-DOS as the main operating system for their new PC. Microsoft purchased all rights to 86-DOS in July 1981, and "IBM Personal Computer DOS 1.0" was ready for the introduction of the IBM PC in October 1981. IBM subjected the operating system to an extensive quality-assurance program, reportedly found well over 300 bugs, and decided to rewrite the programs. This is why PC-DOS is copyrighted by both IBM and Microsoft."
Yep, Gates made a ballsy move and it paid off in spades. It is said that he spent most of his time at Harvard gambling (before dropping out to form MS).
IBM met with a cool reception when they approached DRI for a CP/M license. Dorothy McEwen and DRI's attorney refused to sign the IBM non-disclosure agreement (Gary did not attend the meeting), refused to make any modifications to CP/M-86 and insisted on a higher royalty than what IBM proposed. Bill Gates, who had been negotiating a BASIC license with IBM, seized the opportunity and offered to provide a DOS/BASIC package to IBM on favorable terms. Gates licensed SCP-DOS (for $50,000) and hired Tim Paterson to modify it to run on the IBM-PC. Microsoft submitted a copy to IBM for testing, who found over 300 bugs. IBM cleaned up many of the bugs, made a number of improvements and wrote the user manual. DRI released CP/M-86 soon after IBM released DOS Version 1.0. DOS had fewer features and poorer performance. IBM offered both CP/M-86 and DOS. CP/M-86 was offered at $240 versus $60 for DOS. Few PC owners were willing to pay the extra money DRI considered suing Microsoft for copying all the CP/M system calls, program structure, and user interface. However, DRI knew it would also have to sue IBM. It knew it did not have the resources for this and that its chances of success were remote. In 1982, IBM asked Microsoft to develop a hard disk version of DOS. Microsoft used the opportunity to completely rewrite DOS.
Kildall also developed GEM a better GUI then Windows 1.0 well before Gates. Once you lose momentum it is tough to get it back.
Finally made it to 50 words per minute. This is a good thing because that in the minimum speed for being productive. Still hoping to get it up to at least 75 words per minute but it will take a while.
My progress continues though it is not clear to me if it is an accurate measure... I am up to 60wpm on the typing test but the test is three pages of eight lines and I basically have taken the test 50 times so I have it memorized at this point. That obviously makes it easier to speed through. Still, I am feeling much more confident with the keys and my typing is faster even on other tests that I take. Sometimes it shoots up to 70 wpm and usually it is staying in the 40-50 range. Spent a lot of time at it though and I am not sure it was worth it!
Only because Xnarg is following along - I have now managed to get up to 65 wpm on the typing test I've now taken 66 times. I continue to drill daily. I have to seriously wonder how fast I would have been had I ever drilled like this on the QWERTY keyboard! I still cant type like I used to though. It is especially apparent to me when I am doing everyday typing. Even posting here is a bit of a chore. Still stuttering in my brain and having to use the backspace key way too often. Less and less, but much more than before the switch.
Check out www.typingweb.com for a very nice free training site. It works for either keyboard and has lots of drills. Sounds boring but it is fun to try and best yourself.
When I type the 2 minute "tigers in the wild" test on the KayK site, I get 45 wpm. Same for 1 minute astronaut test.
Taking the 1 minute test on the headlines (sports and travel) I am up to 50 wpm. I am finding if I just try typing slower than my fingers want to move, I wind up typing faster with fewer errors. For instance, the astronaut piece was as low as 36 wpm when my fingers were tangled, but 56 wpm if I patiently typed. Progress is definitely being made.
buffalobreath said: DavidScubadiver said: Up to 95 wpm. I have a feeling that I am now back to where I used to be. Getting back up to speed on QWERTY was, thankfully, much quicker than getting up to speed on the Dvorak layout. Over and out.Thanks for running the experiment. I've often wondered how something like this would turn out.I suppose mileage will vary,but I honestly, can't see why anybody would do this to themselves. I do not even feel like it was less stress in my hands having all the vowels on the home row.
Eta: This morning I am up to 103 wpm. That feels about as fast as I ever remember typing and do not really see ever achieving speeds greater than that. I will work at it though because I would love to be able to knock out 160 wpm just to impress my colleagues.
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