Good for them (the customers). I hope they do take this to court and judges rules in favor of them. I find it absolutely ridiculous restaurants add the gratuity onto the bill for large parties (even though I do understand the reasoning behind it). A gratuity is by definition a voluntary payment.
The owner admitted that the group waited unusually long for their food, but said the pub was extremely busy that night. He said managers offered to comp the food, a claim the couple denies ever happened.
I'm calling bs on the owner's ridiculous claim. Obviously the restaurant couldn't have claimed the customers didn't pay the "mandatory" 18 percent tip if the meal was free.
JorgeBurrito said: Good for them (the customers). I hope they do take this to court and judges rules in favor of them. I find it absolutely ridiculous restaurants add the gratuity onto the bill for large parties (even though I do understand the reasoning behind it). A gratuity is by definition a voluntary payment.
That pub effectively just eliminated themselves from locals EVER having a get together there ever again. I'm sure they are sorry they did this. And for the manager to claim he offered to comp the meal has got to be a LIE and is trying to save his ass from somebody else.
MadAnthony said: I like that the first comment says that mandatory gratuities are "unconstitutional". I wonder what amendment that is...
I wouldn't say "unconstitutional". By definition, though, "mandatory" and "gratuity" are a contradiction in terms. Merriam-Webster sez:
Gratuity: something given voluntarily or beyond obligation, usually for some service;
I understand that it sucks to be hosed by a large party. But if the service sucks, they shouldn't have the ability to tack on a tip anyway. That they were arrested for it goes beyond absurd.
I don't understand why the officer arrested them. That is just dumb, gratuity is just that. If it is mandatory then it is not a gratuity. Mandatory gratuity, sounds contradictory.
pkny said: I don't understand why the officer arrested them. That is just dumb, gratuity is just that. If it is mandatory then it is not a gratuity. Mandatory gratuity, sounds contradictory.
I thought only cruises had mandatory gratuity.
They were only arrested because they refused to pay the "entire" amount due on the bill. Now, when they get to court and the judge throws it out of court, the couple will then be able to sue the pub for false arrest and drag down that place even more then they already have. I just can't believe a local pub would want this bad publicity spreading around like this. Just plain stupid. The manager would be fired if I were that owner.
Things like this spread like wild fireI bet they will be issuing an apology and doing some great promotions soon...
tiburonxshark
Broke Member
posted: Nov. 19, 2009 @ 5:44p
Maybe someone can enlighten me, because I don't understand the need for a 'mandatory gratuity.' I always see this on menus for groups of ~7 or more. What neccesitates this mandatory gratuity? Is it that much more costly for the restaurant to serve 1 group of 8 people as opposed to 2 groups of 4 people (which wouldn't be subject to the gratuity? Or is this simply a money grab by restaurants that has caught on, as the general public has come to accept the mandatory gratuity for large parties?
tiburonxshark said: Maybe someone can enlighten me, because I don't understand the need for a 'mandatory gratuity.' I always see this on menus for groups of ~7 or more. What neccesitates this mandatory gratuity? Is it that much more costly for the restaurant to serve 1 group of 8 people as opposed to 2 groups of 4 people (which wouldn't be subject to the gratuity? Or is this simply a money grab by restaurants that has caught on, as the general public has come to accept the mandatory gratuity for large parties?
It takes time and energy to serve tables like that, and that is the restaurantes way of ensuring the waiters and busboys are paid. I think it's wrong to do but it's unstandable from their point of view.
If I were to bring 8+ people to a place and the service was good, I would tip more than 18% but that's just me. In the end, the customer should "reward" them with what they believe is reasonable.
yankees4life said: tiburonxshark said: Maybe someone can enlighten me, because I don't understand the need for a 'mandatory gratuity.' I always see this on menus for groups of ~7 or more. What neccesitates this mandatory gratuity? Is it that much more costly for the restaurant to serve 1 group of 8 people as opposed to 2 groups of 4 people (which wouldn't be subject to the gratuity? Or is this simply a money grab by restaurants that has caught on, as the general public has come to accept the mandatory gratuity for large parties?
It takes time and energy to serve tables like that, and that is the restaurantes way of ensuring the waiters and busboys are paid. I think it's wrong to do but it's unstandable from their point of view.
If I were to bring 8+ people to a place and the service was good, I would tip more than 18% but that's just me. In the end, the customer should "reward" them with what they believe is reasonable.
I would also add that I have heard from multiple waiters that is pretty common to get really bad tips when waiting large tables (especially when it is a group of friends getting together). It has nothing to do with poor service, it is just that people "forget" to tip when divvying the bill up in these situations. This may be a restaurants way of keeping their waiters happy.
yankees4life said: tiburonxshark said: Maybe someone can enlighten me, because I don't understand the need for a 'mandatory gratuity.' I always see this on menus for groups of ~7 or more. What neccesitates this mandatory gratuity? Is it that much more costly for the restaurant to serve 1 group of 8 people as opposed to 2 groups of 4 people (which wouldn't be subject to the gratuity? Or is this simply a money grab by restaurants that has caught on, as the general public has come to accept the mandatory gratuity for large parties?
It takes time and energy to serve tables like that, and that is the restaurantes way of ensuring the waiters and busboys are paid. I think it's wrong to do but it's unstandable from their point of view.
If I were to bring 8+ people to a place and the service was good, I would tip more than 18% but that's just me. In the end, the customer should "reward" them with what they believe is reasonable.But how does it take more time and energy to serve one table of 8 as opposed to 2 tables of 4? I've never worked in a restaurant, so I don't know.
tiburonxshark said: But how does it take more time and energy to serve one table of 8 as opposed to 2 tables of 4? I've never worked in a restaurant, so I don't know.
And FWIW I'm not anti-tipping. I always tip 15%.
It doesn't take more energy, but if a waiter is doing one table of 8, that may be his only table or one of a few tables - which means if he gets a lousy or no tip, he pretty much makes nothing for the night. If he's got 4 tables, if one of them is a non/lousy tipper, chances are the other 3 are more generous and balance it out so it's a smaller loss.
MadAnthony said: tiburonxshark said: But how does it take more time and energy to serve one table of 8 as opposed to 2 tables of 4? I've never worked in a restaurant, so I don't know.
And FWIW I'm not anti-tipping. I always tip 15%.
It doesn't take more energy, but if a waiter is doing one table of 8, that may be his only table or one of a few tables - which means if he gets a lousy or no tip, he pretty much makes nothing for the night. If he's got 4 tables, if one of them is a non/lousy tipper, chances are the other 3 are more generous and balance it out so it's a smaller loss.
Also, when you're trying to get everyone's food to the table at the same time, it's a bit easier to carry 4 entrees than it is 8 or 12 or 16. Usually another server has to help, so more splitting of tips.
It's not a matter of time/energy or what you're carrying, at least IMO. It takes more work to be attentive to 8 people, to get their orders and customizations right, to bring and refill their drinks in a timely manner, to remember who ordered what, etc.
the bartender called the police. what an upstanding thing to do - "tell on" the patrons. he must have been like the hall monitor that monitored other hall monitors.
First a disclaimer/disclosure: I am against tipping (but do I tip generously).
The question here is not a semantics one but a legal one. The menu clearly said gratuity will be added to large parties. So I think this creates a legal obligation on the part of the patrons to pay it.
Now, I also agree that it was dumb to call the police and I agree with the prediction that soon the restaurant would drop the charges and issue an apology.
The only argument that I have read in defense of not paying is the one that the dictionary definition calls gratuity to be voluntary. Now, I am not a lawyer but I say the menu insert that says gratuity will be added negates that semantics discrepancy.
katx said: First a disclaimer/disclosure: I am against tipping (but do I tip generously).
The question here is not a semantics one but a legal one. The menu clearly said gratuity will be added to large parties. So I think this creates a legal obligation on the part of the patrons to pay it.
Now, I also agree that it was dumb to call the police and I agree with the prediction that soon the restaurant would drop the charges and issue an apology.
The only argument that I have read in defense of not paying is the one that the dictionary definition calls gratuity to be voluntary. Now, I am not a lawyer but I say the menu insert that says gratuity will be added negates that semantics discrepancy.
That is a fine line. That sentence reads like "A voluntary tip will be added", it does not state that this is a mandatory fee or a tax which is a required payment. A tip that is added can always be taken away much like a warranty or additional services, if they would start calling it a 18% fee then they can get away with it. I hope this story gets more attention.
pkny said: katx said: First a disclaimer/disclosure: I am against tipping (but do I tip generously).
The question here is not a semantics one but a legal one. The menu clearly said gratuity will be added to large parties. So I think this creates a legal obligation on the part of the patrons to pay it.
Now, I also agree that it was dumb to call the police and I agree with the prediction that soon the restaurant would drop the charges and issue an apology.
The only argument that I have read in defense of not paying is the one that the dictionary definition calls gratuity to be voluntary. Now, I am not a lawyer but I say the menu insert that says gratuity will be added negates that semantics discrepancy.
That is a fine line. That sentence reads like "A voluntary tip will be added", it does not state that this is a mandatory fee or a tax which is a required payment. A tip that is added can always be taken away much like a warranty or additional services, if they would start calling it a 18% fee then they can get away with it. I hope this story gets more attention.I see what you mean. This is what in law is called "meeting of the minds", I think. Are you seriously arguing that it is not clear that the 18% often used by restaurants for large parties is mandatory? See, I claim that it is clear to most people that the 18% "gratuity" is NOT voluntary and indeed is mandatory.
I like your suggestion. I think they should change it to "service fee."
As I said earlier, I am very much against any and all tips. These days you have to tip everyone. The other day, I bought a shuttle service to take me from airport to a downtown hotel. On the credit card slip for me to sigh it had a gratuity line and it said with bold letters that they basic fare did not include gratuity for the driver. Now, why should the driver get a gratuity in the first place. There is a place inside the shuttle cab for passengers to place their luggage. So I did not include any gratuity. I was supposed to use the credit card receipt as my ticket to get on the shuttle and I had to surrender it to the driver. It also clearly showed that I had left no gratuity. I think this is ridiculous.
I go to a subway type store and order a sandwich to go. At the end of the counter where I am supposed to pay there is a tip jar. There is a tip jar everywhere. Arrrrrggggghhhhhh!!!!!!!
katx said: The question here is not a semantics one but a legal one. The menu clearly said gratuity will be added to large parties. So I think this creates a legal obligation on the part of the patrons to pay it.
I don't know about that. Some restaurants in NYC add a tip to the bill, usually 15%, because tourists are notoriously bad tippers. But customers are free to adjust that tip up or down if they feel the server deserves more or less. Unless the restaurant clearly specifies in advance that they're charging a service FEE, not a gratuity, I don't see how they could legally enforce it.
katx said: Are you seriously arguing that it is not clear that the 18% often used by restaurants for large parties is mandatory? See, I claim that it is clear to most people that the 18% "gratuity" is NOT voluntary and indeed is mandatory.
I like your suggestion. I think they should change it to "service fee."
Now that you mention it, i really never thought that 18% was mandatory. I am a pretty good tipper i my opinion, so i just assumed that was a convenient way so put forth the tip amount with out calculating it myself hehe.
Things like this spread like wild fireI bet they will be issuing an apology and doing some great promotions soon...
Why do you assume that?
The management didn't give a crap about the caliber of people they hired. So they got waitstaff that didn't give a damn (and were likely stoned when doing their jobs) and a bartender that called police over $18. The owner was also dumb enough to claim a meal comp offer that was denied by the couple.
I don't see the owner smart enough to give a crap. For God's sake, he didn't even release his name - how invested is he with making anything right?
The place will either go under (this incident simply accelerated things), or else change its name and menu and falsely claim to be under new management.
No matter what happens, the owner will blame the media and the couple, and possibly the bartender.
MadAnthony said: tiburonxshark said: But how does it take more time and energy to serve one table of 8 as opposed to 2 tables of 4? I've never worked in a restaurant, so I don't know.
And FWIW I'm not anti-tipping. I always tip 15%.
It doesn't take more energy, but if a waiter is doing one table of 8, that may be his only table or one of a few tables - which means if he gets a lousy or no tip, he pretty much makes nothing for the night. If he's got 4 tables, if one of them is a non/lousy tipper, chances are the other 3 are more generous and balance it out so it's a smaller loss.
One more thing about large parties: they turn slower. People aren't there to eat, they're there to celebrate with a large group that doesn't often get together. Longer stay=less money spent over time and less tips.
They should have ate at McDonald's. No mandatory gratuities there. Ronald McDonald wouldn't do such a thing.
he wouldnt because hed have given the customer a mcbellyache
and when one goes in jail, does he have to tip for the excellent food that prisoners get? you should see the prisoners menu. theyre treated like kings.
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